Crosby vs Bourque?

Who do you rank higher all time?


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thadd

Oil4Life
Jun 9, 2007
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LOL So many people on these boards don't know their hockey history very well. Ray Bourque is easily top 5 d-man of all time.
I've never been a Bruins fan, but to dismiss Bourque as being lesser a legend than Crosby is a pretty twisted joke.
Bourque created a truly mind-boggling level of offense.

As an 18 year old he was 4th in team points with 65 points.
When he was 22 he was 3rd in team points with 96 points and the player with the 4th most points had 61.
When he was 25 he was 1st in team points with 96 and Cam Neely was 2nd with 72.
When he was 29 he scored 94 points. Player with 4th most points had less than 60.
When he was 32 he was 2nd point points with 91 and the 5th most player had 64.
In his last season in the NHL he was 40 years old he put up 59 points.

He put up 1579 points in 1612 games. That's freaking insane.
FIVE Norris trophies. That's freaking insane and people would probably give it more attention if Lidstrom didn't start playing when Bourque was in the middle of his career.

Guys like Lidstrom and Bourque are only bested by Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux.
 
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thadd

Oil4Life
Jun 9, 2007
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How anyone could come to the conclusion that Crosby was the best player during a 6 year stretch where Ovechkin won 3 Harts and Crosby won none is beyond me.

For many years people used Ovechkin's lack of playoff success and an argument that Crosby is/was better than him.
 

GreatGonzo

Surrounded by Snowflakes
May 26, 2011
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I personally have Lemieux at #1, but I don't think Gretzky is a tier above Crosby

Put them in the same era and I don't think Gretzky would out-score him
Same era? Gretzky did great in the late 90s when scoring was extremely similar, and he was in his late 30s with a bad back.....Even though Gretzky our performed Lemieux a lot of the time, and are both from the same era,you think he wouldn’t out score Crosby? Why?

Crosby was out scored by Sedin, Benn, Tavares, Kane, and his own teammate Malkin.....yet WAYNE GRETZKY wouldn’t out produce him?......
 
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Regal

Registered User
Mar 12, 2010
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Who had the better season/who was the better player

06: OV/OV
07: Crosby/Crosby
08: OV/OV
09: OV/OV
10: OV/OV
11: OV/Crosby
12: OV/Crosby
13: OV/Crosby
14: Crosby/Crosby
15: OV/OV
16: Crosby/Crosby
17: Crosby/Crosby
18: OV/OV

9-4 better seasons for OV, only 13 is really arguable.

7-6 seasons as a better player for Crosby.

I would agree with this assessment. The problem is it doesn't take into account the differences in those years. In terms of better player at least, Crosby was generally a lot closer to Ovechkin in years he was behind.
 
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Nadal On Clay

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What’s your point? Did he not deserve the Hart?

Of course that’s all that matters, because Ovechkin was better in the regular season so now playoffs are all that matters. But the fact is, player to player, Crosby wasn’t better than Ovechkin that year. They both had 21 points after 2 rounds, The pens won the series because they also had Malkin.

Context? Your going to preach about that all while ignoring it? Whole picture? Your deliberately ignoring 82 games, while focusing on the post season where Crosby was the SECOND best player. That’s not the whole picture, that’s nit picking. It’s not Ovechkins fault the Caps didn’t advance, and that shouldn’t give Crosby more credit.

Ovechkin was the best player in the regular season while having an equally impactful playoff run as Crosby, your ignoring that “small” factor and favoring a playoff run where he wasn’t even the best player.

Im not favouring the playoffs over the regular season. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m just saying if you includes playoffs into the equation, it’s very close.

You also missed my point before. In those years, Ovechkin was playing on a run and gun system ran by Boudreau. I’m not saying that’s the reason for his high point totals but it certainly helped. When Boudreau was hired during the 2007-2008 season, OV gone from 92 to 112 pts, a 20 pts jump. When Boudreau got canned in the 2012 season, OV gone from 85 to 65 pts, this time a 20 pts deficit. That played quite a huge part on OVs offensive numbers since he was exempted from playing defense.

You can also look at linemates/teammates for reference. Backstrom gets 88 in 82, Semin gets 79 in 62 and Green gets 73 in 68. That’s huge help compared to Pens Malkin with 113 in 82, Staal with 49 in 82, Sykora with 46 in 76 and Fedotenko with 39 in 65 (Gonchar was injured for the most part of the season only played 25 games). Ovi had a huge advantage in qulity of teammates that season.

If you even ever watched them both that year, you could saw that they were very close as players and each one of them was bringing A LOT to their team. Ovechkin was obviously more electrifying, but Crosby was still as efficient as him.

I also have one question for you, who was the best in last year’s playoffs? Crosby or Ovechkin?
 

Midnight Judges

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I also have one question for you, who was the best in last year’s playoffs? Crosby or Ovechkin?

Clearly Ovechkin, as Crosby was exempted from playing defense - to the point where despite scoring a lot, Crosby was plus minus zero against the Capitals and had at least two game winning goals against scored while he was on the ice - and nowhere near giving even of a shred of a care for defense.

Ovechkin OTOH was nearly as productive offensively, while playing solid defense and scoring the goal or the primary assist on 3 game winning goals late in games at curcial moments against the Pens. 2 of which Crosby was on the ice for (albeit way behind the play and nowhere near being in position to defend).

The difference is Crosby played against the Flyers - who gave perhaps the worst defensive and goal tending performance in the history of the NHL or beer league playoffs.
 

Nadal On Clay

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Clearly Ovechkin, as Crosby was exempted from playing defense - to the point where despite scoring a lot, Crosby was plus minus zero against the Capitals and had at least two game winning goals against scored while he was on the ice - and nowhere near giving even of a shred of a care for defense.

Ovechkin OTOH was nearly as productive offensively, while playing solid defense and scoring the goal or the primary assist on 3 game winning goals late in games at curcial moments against the Pens. 2 of which Crosby was on the ice for (albeit way behind the play and nowhere near being in position to defend).

The difference is Crosby played against the Flyers - who gave perhaps the worst defensive and goal tending performance in the history of the NHL or beer league playoffs.

Yeah you definitely not watched the Pens play in the first round.
 

SillyRabbit

Trix Are For Kids
Jan 3, 2006
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Wait people are using a “lack of trophies” argument against Crosby when he absolutely had three Art Ross (and likely three Harts) stolen from him by injuries?

He was far and away the front runner three different times when he got knocked out by injuries. And given his track record it’s extrmely likely he held onto his lead.
 
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b in vancouver

Registered User
Jul 28, 2005
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Crosby. Doesn't diminish Borque's legacy at all though as he's on the Lidstrom/Potvin tier.

He's above Potvin and Lidstrom.
Bourque's career was over-shadowed by Gretzky and Lemieux's but I have him as the next modern player - and ahead of Potvin and then Lidstrom. 19 first or second all-star team selections! That's only behind Gordie Howe. Bourque was a top 1-3 defence man league-wide for 2 decades.
With Mario and Wayne - Crosby would've been considered #3 also.

Crosby has lots of time left to pass Bourque and most likely will - but he hasn't yet.
 

Laineux

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Aug 1, 2011
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Wait people are using a “lack of trophies” argument against Crosby when he absolutely had three Art Ross (and likely three Harts) stolen from him by injuries?

He was far and away the front runner three different times when he got knocked out by injuries. And given his track record it’s extrmely likely he held onto his lead.
Which is the third time that you're talking about?
 

Midnight Judges

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Yeah you definitely not watched the Pens play in the first round.

I watched most of it. It was a poop show.

Are you arguing that the Flyers played solid defense and goal tended well?!? They gave up 4.7 goals per game.

The Capitals held the Pens to half that.
 

Laineux

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Aug 1, 2011
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Im guessing 2007-2008.
I mean... that's just wrong. Crosby had 63 points in 46 games when he got injured, which was good enough for 4th place in scoring behind Kovalchuk, Iginla and Lecavalier. Crosby had the highest points per game by an extremely thin margin. He was right there with the rest of the pack.

Ovechkin won the Art Ross with 112 points and would have gotten the goal tiebreaker even if Crosby had kept up his pace. And there's no way Crosby was snubbing a Hart from 65 goal Ovechkin, no way.
 
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Midnight Judges

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Wait people are using a “lack of trophies” argument against Crosby when he absolutely had three Art Ross (and likely three Harts) stolen from him by injuries?

He was far and away the front runner three different times when he got knocked out by injuries. And given his track record it’s extrmely likely he held onto his lead.

You can make those types of arguments for almost every generational player. Ovechkin lost 2 Art Rosses, a few Rockets, and a Hart due to injuries and his Grandfather's funeral, etc.

Unfortunately for Crosby and Ovechkin, imaginary accomplishments aren't real accomplishments, and durability is a prerequisite in all professional sports.
 

thadd

Oil4Life
Jun 9, 2007
26,717
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Canada
Wait people are using a “lack of trophies” argument against Crosby when he absolutely had three Art Ross (and likely three Harts) stolen from him by injuries?

He was far and away the front runner three different times when he got knocked out by injuries. And given his track record it’s extrmely likely he held onto his lead.

I can't support that. If you support this argument then a Flyers fan could come in here and say that Lindros was the best player of all time and that he would have shown it on the stat sheet if he'd never suffered any concussions.
 

Nathaniel

Registered User
Oct 18, 2013
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I mean... that's just wrong. Crosby had 63 points in 46 games when he got injured, which was good enough for 4th place in scoring behind Kovalchuk, Iginla and Lecavalier. Crosby had the highest points per game by an extremely thin margin. He was right there with the rest of the pack.

Ovechkin won the Art Ross with 112 points and would have gotten the goal tiebreaker even if Crosby had kept up his pace. And there's no way Crosby was snubbing a Hart from 65 goal Ovechkin, no way.
Crosby had 63 points in 45 games before his ankle sprain. Tied for the league lead
 

b in vancouver

Registered User
Jul 28, 2005
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LOL So many people on these boards don't know their hockey history very well. Ray Bourque is easily top 5 d-man of all time.
I've never been a Bruins fan, but to dismiss Bourque as being lesser a legend than Crosby is a pretty twisted joke.
Bourque created a truly mind-boggling level of offense.

As an 18 year old he was 4th in team points with 65 points.
When he was 22 he was 3rd in team points with 96 points and the player with the 4th most points had 61.
When he was 25 he was 1st in team points with 96 and Cam Neely was 2nd with 72.
When he was 29 he scored 94 points. Player with 4th most points had less than 60.
When he was 32 he was 2nd point points with 91 and the 5th most player had 64.
In his last season in the NHL he was 40 years old he put up 59 points.

He put up 1579 points in 1612 games. That's freaking insane.
FIVE Norris trophies. That's freaking insane and people would probably give it more attention if Lidstrom didn't start playing when Bourque was in the middle of his career.

Guys like Lidstrom and Bourque are only bested by Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux.

People forget - or never saw. What's more amazing in context to those numbers is that Bourque was also one of the best shutdown d-men out there and tough as nails. And why I personally have him a good few spots higher than Lidstrom. I'm a big fan of Potvin for the same reasons as he was everything you wanted.

5 Norris - should've been 7-8 - but voting was weird in the 80s (Carlyle, etc.) and early 90s ... and then you look at his competition as Potvin, Langway, Chelios, Coffey, Leetch, Pronger, Wilson, Blake, McInnis, Murphy, M. Howe, Stevens - and to be easily considered the best of that group of his contemporaries is simply amazing. Lidstrom - as good as he was, never saw competition like that.

Too bad the Sinden rarely gave them that extra player or two to put them over the top. They had some good/great teams but they also had some poor timing against The Oil and Pens and of course The Habs.
 
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crosbyshow

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Aug 25, 2017
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I mean... that's just wrong. Crosby had 63 points in 46 games when he got injured, which was good enough for 4th place in scoring behind Kovalchuk, Iginla and Lecavalier. Crosby had the highest points per game by an extremely thin margin. He was right there with the rest of the pack.

Ovechkin won the Art Ross with 112 points and would have gotten the goal tiebreaker even if Crosby had kept up his pace. And there's no way Crosby was snubbing a Hart from 65 goal Ovechkin, no way.


Yep and Crosby had 66 points in 40 games...in 2011 when he had his concussion....at the time he had 14 more points than Sedin who was second...
Then 2 years after, he was completely alone again and suffered a broken jaw and missed the last 3 weeks of the season... St-louis et Ovy passed him only 2 weeks after.. no way Ovy would have won the Hart that year with Crosby healthy until the end od the season...no way


A lot of people forget that Crosby barely played at 23 and 24 years old.......not 35 and 36...
 

Laineux

Registered User
Aug 1, 2011
5,267
2,826
Crosby has obviously been good enough where he could have more individual awards.

I don't see the reason for trophy counting. Actually I think that it's largely irrelevant whether Crosby has four or two scoring titles... we know the caliber of player that he is based on a sample size of 1000 games and had he scored 40 point in 40 games in 10/11 and won the Ross doesn't change anything.

The guestion mark is whether Crosby could've lapped the field at his peak, which we never saw him do, and that does hurt him.
 

Nadal On Clay

Djokovic > Nadal > Federer
Oct 11, 2017
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I watched most of it. It was a poop show.

Are you arguing that the Flyers played solid defense and goal tended well?!? They gave up 4.7 goals per game.

The Capitals held the Pens to half that.

The fact that you NEVER give any credit to Crosby is laughable, he scored 13 pts while being good defensively and you still trying to descredit him because Elliott played the worst series of his career. If anything, Pens lack of depth showed vs the Caps while Crosby still put a respectable 8 pts in 6 games vs the Caps.
 
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