Crosby vs Bourque?

[ricky0034]

Players who have won *more* Art Ross trophies than Crosby:
8

Players who have won *more* Hart trophies than Crosby:
8

Players who have won *more* Lindsay/Pearson Awards:
2

The last one, in particular, is telling considering it's the one for "Most Outstanding Player". Only Gretzky and Lemieux have *more* Lindsay/Pearson awards than Crosby.

Overall, though, Crosby's trophy case has been affected by his injuries. If you think durability counts for more than ability, then that's fine. Discount these. But Crosby has lost out on at least 2 Art Ross and at least 2 Hart trophies due to injury. At the very least, that needs to be taken into account when comparing him to all-time players.

the fact that the trophy has only existed since 1971 is a pretty big factor in that Lindsay/Pearson thing,that number would probably at least double if not for that

as for the injury thing it's ultimately a bunch of what ifs which I don't put a ton of stock in but i'd just like to mention that I hate this tendency people have to just assume that Crosby would have won the Art Ross in 2010-11(I assume that and 12-13 are the two years you were referring to) he played half the season and finished 38 points behind Sedin getting injured right when he was probably about due for a slump,is it fairly likely that he would have put up 38+ points if he had played the remaining 41 games? sure but I think it's FAR from the sure thing that people assume it is,as for 2012-13 if we're playing a what if game what if the season wasn't shortened by a lockout? the entire scoring race would look radically different over a full season

I also don't like how when people play these what if games they give people credit for missed games but aren't willing to give the same sort of benefit of the doubt to their competition be that in the contemporary(bye bye 2009-10 rocket) or all time(lots of guys could realistically have an extra Art Ross or two if not for missed games) sense,it makes for an incredibly disingenuous argument

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I feel like this comparison is unfair to Bourque in that Crosby is decidedly better than Bourque but both are incredible players and aren't as far apart as the poll would typically indicate.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

You think Ovechkin's 10 goals and 21 points in 14 playoff games while being +10 is the deciding factor against him somehow?

After getting 115 first place Hart votes to Crosby's zero?

It’s not against him. It’s just the fact that Sid scored 15 goals and 31 pts during those playoffs.

 

[Neutrinos]

I think Crosby has a case as the best player of all-time, but I think it could be argued that Bourque has had the better career

As someone who tends to rank players based entirely on which one I'd rather have on my team, I'll go with Crosby

 

[ricky0034]

It’s not against him. It’s just the fact that Sid scored 15 goals and 31 pts during those playoffs.

in 10 more games

or does this "context" thing of yours only matter when it works to Crosby's advantage?

 

[Nadal On Clay]

in 10 more games

or does this "context" thing of yours only matter when it works to Crosby's advantage?

Who was the best player during last playoffs? Ovechkin or Crosby?

 

[ricky0034]

Who was the best player during last playoffs? Ovechkin or Crosby?

best last year? i'd say probably Kuznetsov

as for whether Crosby was better than Ovechkin? tough to say,he's got a solid argument for it I suppose although it's skewed quite a bit by that ridiculously high shooting percentage he had(well over double his career average)

which is something that can't be said about Ovechkin in 2008-09 by the way

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

Rene

 

[Nadal On Clay]

best last year? i'd say probably Kuznetsov

as for whether Crosby was better than Ovechkin? tough to say,he's got a solid argument for it I suppose although it's skewed quite a bit by that ridiculously high shooting percentage he had(well over double his career average)

which is something that can't be said about Ovechkin in 2008-09 by the way

So you’re basing your argument on shooting percentages? Lol

You cant punish Crosby because his team won the cup in 2009 and he was a huge part of it. It’s just a + to him just like last year playoffs was a + for OV.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Crosby. Doesn't diminish Borque's legacy at all though as he's on the Lidstrom/Potvin tier.

 

[heretik27]

Bourque by a lot

Crosby is incredibly overrated in an all time sense by a lot of people on here,he only won 2 Art Ross trophies and is unlikely to win more at this point,that's nice and all but there's been like a dozen people that have lead the league in scoring more times than that

meanwhile Bourque faced better competition and has 5 Norris trophies

I'm not terribly focused on trophies, but if we're to believe the people on HFBoards that Crosby is like the 5th greatest player of all time behind Gretz/Orr/Lemieux/Howe. Why isn't Malkin considered top 10 as well? I truly don't see a massive gap between them, yet people would place Crosby ahead of the Yzerman's/Sakic's of the past and Malkin... where? He doesn't get talked of in the same vein as the Hull's, Richard's, Bossy's, Lafleur's and other greats. So why is the treatment for Crosby different? Is it the Russian factor?

 

[slimbob8]

Easily Crosby. You can argue he’s a top 5 player all time. Boutique has never once been in that discussion.

 

[Echo Roku]

Gabriel Bourque, obviously

 

[GreatGonzo]

I think Crosby has a case as the best player of all-time, but I think it could be argued that Bourque has had the better career

As someone who tends to rank players based entirely on which one I'd rather have on my team, I'll go with Crosby

Over Lemieux and Gretzky? Not even close. Crosby is barely a tier above Malkin at their best, and was 2nd to Ovechkin for a few years.

I'm not terribly focused on trophies, but if we're to believe the people on HFBoards that Crosby is like the 5th greatest player of all time behind Gretz/Orr/Lemieux/Howe. Why isn't Malkin considered top 10 as well? I truly don't see a massive gap between them, yet people would place Crosby ahead of the Yzerman's/Sakic's of the past and Malkin... where? He doesn't get talked of in the same vein as the Hull's, Richard's, Bossy's, Lafleur's and other greats. So why is the treatment for Crosby different? Is it the Russian factor?

Because of consistency and the fact that he’s Russian, all while playing on the same team as Crosby.

It’s not against him. It’s just the fact that Sid scored 15 goals and 31 pts during those playoffs.

i mean that’s kind of ridiculous wouldn’t you say?

Your simply picking the playoffs based on the fact that Crosby happen to go farther...all While Ovechkin walked away with the Hart and Lindsay. Crosby wasn’t even the best player that post season anyway, where as Ovechkin was considered the most valuable and most outstanding in the league.

I think ‘09 goes to Ovechkin. It is close, but to give Crosby the edge doesn’t make any sense.

 

[GlitchMarner]

I think Crosby has a case as the best player of all-time, but I think it could be argued that Bourque has had the better career

As someone who tends to rank players based entirely on which one I'd rather have on my team, I'll go with Crosby

In the "dominance of peers" sense, he has no case whatsoever. If you truly believe the game has gotten much harder and more competitive, though, then sure. But I personally would never put him ahead of Gretzky or Orr as of now.

Will McDavid have an argument as the best ever before age 25 if he keeps winning awards just because of the notion that the NHL is a lot together to dominate now?

 

[newfy]

Always tough to compare forwards to d-men. Bourque is in the discussion for 2nd best d-man. Crosby is in the discussion for 4th best forward all-time.

Both are firmly in the 2nd tier of players below the Big 4.

I agree with this. Hard to say between forwards and dmen. I think theyre pretty close with Crosby probably having a slight edge but its not a blow out like some are saying in here. Bourque is at worst the 4th best dman of all time, nothing to shake a stick at

Quite simply, Ovechkin had the better season in both instances - which is the whole point of being the best - to help your team win.

As for Hall being better than McDavid last season, McDavid would have had my vote.

I dont think comparing Hall with McDavid is fair either. Hart trophy is biased against teams that dont make playoffs. OV and Crosby were both playing on teams near the top of the league, so that bias doesnt work against them, making it a much more fair comparison. If Edmonton makes playoffs last year, McDavid runs away with the Hart

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Your simply picking the playoffs based on the fact that Crosby happen to go farther...all While Ovechkin walked away with the Hart and Lindsay. Crosby wasn’t even the best player that post season anyway, where as Ovechkin was considered the most valuable and most outstanding in the league.

I think ‘09 goes to Ovechkin. It is close, but to give Crosby the edge doesn’t make any sense.

Ovechkin walked away with the Hart because both Crosby and Malkin played at a high level and were on the same team.

Crosby was better than Ovechkin in the playoffs, that’s all that matters.

You can look at the numbers all you want, but you also need to look at the context behind it. I can understand people saying Ovechkin was better, but when you look at the whole picture, it is very close.

 

[JetsHomer]

Crosby was the best player in the game for a decade.

Bourque is the 2nd best Dman of all time

 

[Avsboy]

Bourque is the 2nd best Dman of all time

Orr
Lidstrom
Bourque

 

[JetsHomer]

Orr
Lidstrom
Bourque

Actually the list is

Orr
Bourque
Lidstrom

 

[Avsboy]

Actually the list is

Orr
Bourque
Lidstrom

Debatable

I vote Sid the Kid. Best player on either end of his era.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Ovechkin walked away with the Hart because both Crosby and Malkin played at a high level and were on the same team.

Crosby was better than Ovechkin in the playoffs, that’s all that matters.

You can look at the numbers all you want, but you also need to look at the context behind it. I can understand people saying Ovechkin was better, but when you look at the whole picture, it is very close.

What’s your point? Did he not deserve the Hart?

Of course that’s all that matters, because Ovechkin was better in the regular season so now playoffs are all that matters. But the fact is, player to player, Crosby wasn’t better than Ovechkin that year. They both had 21 points after 2 rounds, The pens won the series because they also had Malkin.

Context? Your going to preach about that all while ignoring it? Whole picture? Your deliberately ignoring 82 games, while focusing on the post season where Crosby was the SECOND best player. That’s not the whole picture, that’s nit picking. It’s not Ovechkins fault the Caps didn’t advance, and that shouldn’t give Crosby more credit.

Ovechkin was the best player in the regular season while having an equally impactful playoff run as Crosby, your ignoring that “small” factor and favoring a playoff run where he wasn’t even the best player.

 

[Neutrinos]

Over Lemieux and Gretzky? Not even close. Crosby is barely a tier above Malkin at their best, and was 2nd to Ovechkin for a few years.


Because of consistency and the fact that he’s Russian, all while playing on the same team as Crosby.

i mean that’s kind of ridiculous wouldn’t you say?

Your simply picking the playoffs based on the fact that Crosby happen to go farther...all While Ovechkin walked away with the Hart and Lindsay. Crosby wasn’t even the best player that post season anyway, where as Ovechkin was considered the most valuable and most outstanding in the league.

I think ‘09 goes to Ovechkin. It is close, but to give Crosby the edge doesn’t make any sense.

I personally have Lemieux at #1, but I don't think Gretzky is a tier above Crosby

Put them in the same era and I don't think Gretzky would out-score him

 

[Evincar]

I personally have Lemieux at #1, but I don't think Gretzky is a tier above Crosby

Put them in the same era and I don't think Gretzky would out-score him

Than you cant have Lemieux #1. He played in the same era as Gretzky.

 

[Plural]

Ovechkin walked away with the Hart because both Crosby and Malkin played at a high level and were on the same team.

Crosby was better than Ovechkin in the playoffs, that’s all that matters.

You can look at the numbers all you want, but you also need to look at the context behind it. I can understand people saying Ovechkin was better, but when you look at the whole picture, it is very close.

I don't think it's very close at all. When doing individual player comparisons regular season has always been the one that matters the most. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone during the time saying Crosby was better player during that season.