Crosby vs Bourque?

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Here, let's put it another way:

Who was better by season - according to Hart voting:

06 Ovechkin
07 Crosby (MVP)
08 Ovechkin (MVP)
09 Ovechkin (MVP)
10 Ovechkin
11 Ovechkin (Crosby played half season)
12 both not ranked (Crosby played a quarter season)
13 Ovechkin (MVP)
14 Crosby (MVP)
15 Ovechkin
16 Crosby
17 Crosby
18 Ovechkin

How anyone could come to the conclusion that Crosby was the best player during a 6 year stretch where Ovechkin won 3 Harts and Crosby won none is beyond me.

Crosby had the same amount of points as Ovechkin with 12 less games. Won the ted Lindsay. Everyone knows Crosby was better.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby was still better than ov in 10-11 lol don’t kid yourself. Guy was 23 points behind Crosby before the hit

 

[tony d]

Bourque. I like Crosby and all but he's not at Bourque's level yet.

 

[nowhereman]

How could Ovechkin not have been better period in 2010? He matched Crosby's points in 9 fewer games with 1 less goal, was +45, and beat Crosby in Hart and Pearson voting. In the playoffs he had 10 points and was +5 in 7 games. Ovechkin was an absolute monster at that time. He actually achieved the productivity that people extrapolate for Crosby based on his half and quarter seasons. Unlike Crosby, Ovechkin did it in consecutive games and consecutive seasons without rest, including playoffs.

I also don't see why Crosby deserves full credit for half and quarter seasons. Regardless, no way was Crosby better than Malkin in 2012. Malkin's 2012 season is better than any season Crosby has ever had, by a clear margin. To just imagine that Crosby could have been even better is massively unfair to Malkin.

And Ovechkin won the Hart in '13 with more than twice as many goals as Crosby so I don't see why lumping in '13 is equitable either. If this were just an extension of sustained consistent dominance, then maybe, but at that point Crosby had not been the actual best player for 6 years. So you wouldn't be extending it, you'd have to be claiming Crosby's half and quarter seasons firmly established him as the best player - which is pretty absurd.

You just seem to be lumping in a bunch of seasons, but it isn't warranted. I just don't get the need for extrapolations and speculations for things that already happened. Recently someone on HF complained that the phrase "actual results" biased a poll against Crosby in Ovechkin's favor - as if this was unfair. /facepalm

What did Crosby do to you that you feel the need to take so much time out of your daily life to tear the guy down?

 

[daver]

Always tough to compare forwards to d-men. Bourque is in the discussion for 2nd best d-man. Crosby is in the discussion for 4th best forward all-time.

Both are firmly in the 2nd tier of players below the Big 4.

 

[Midnight Judges]

What did Crosby do to you that you feel the need to take so much time out of your daily life to tear the guy down?

Appeal to emotion

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Here, let's put it another way:

Who was better by season - according to Hart voting:

06 Ovechkin
07 Crosby (MVP)
08 Ovechkin (MVP)
09 Ovechkin (MVP)
10 Ovechkin
11 Ovechkin (Crosby played half season)
12 both not ranked (Crosby played a quarter season)
13 Ovechkin (MVP)
14 Crosby (MVP)
15 Ovechkin
16 Crosby
17 Crosby
18 Ovechkin

How anyone could come to the conclusion that Crosby was the best player during a 6 year stretch where Ovechkin won 3 Harts and Crosby won none is beyond me.

Who cares about hart voting though...is Hall better than Mcdavid? How anyone can say Ovechkin was better than Crosby in 2010-11 or 2012-13 with a straight face is beyond me. Crosby has very clearly been the superior player since 2010, he's simply played at a higher level over the course of their careers.

Crosby - 1.29 ppg
Ovechkin - 1.12 ppg

Significant difference.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Who cares about hart voting though...is Hall better than Mcdavid? How anyone can say Ovechkin was better than Crosby in 2010-11 or 2012-13 with a straight face is beyond me. Crosby has very clearly been the superior player since 2010, he's simply played at a higher level over the course of their careers.

Crosby - 1.29 ppg
Ovechkin - 1.12 ppg

Significant difference.

I really don’t understand it. Crosby was 20+ points clear of Ovechkin in both seasons. Before his injury

 

[Midnight Judges]

I really don’t understand it. Crosby was 20+ points clear of Ovechkin in both seasons. Before his injury

Because durability is a virtue in all professional sports.

You ignore it as a factor - not based on merit - but because it doesn't fit the conclusion you desire.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Who cares about hart voting though...is Hall better than Mcdavid? How anyone can say Ovechkin was better than Crosby in 2010-11 or 2012-13 with a straight face is beyond me.

Quite simply, Ovechkin had the better season in both instances - which is the whole point of being the best - to help your team win.

As for Hall being better than McDavid last season, McDavid would have had my vote.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby - 1.29 ppg
Ovechkin - 1.12 ppg

Significant difference.

Most of what you think of as a significant difference can be attributed to (arbitrary) secondary assists.

Some NHL Stars Get More Assists At Home Than They Deserve

Their primary PPG difference is more like .04-.05

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Most of what you think of as a significant difference can be attributed to (arbitrary) secondary assists.

Some NHL Stars Get More Assists At Home Than They Deserve

Their primary PPG difference is more like .04-.05

Secondary assists are quite often very integral parts of the play. The more likely explanation is Ovechkin is not much of a playmaker and can't think two passes ahead. If secondary assists were so arbitrary you'd think Ovechkin would pick up a bunch himself.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Crosby's PrimPPG is .975 vs .917 for Ovechkin

 

[Pensfan891]

Ovechkin was better than Crosby from 2010-2011? And when Crosby won the Lindsay in 2013? Rofffffl.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Here, let's put it another way:

Who was better by season - according to Hart voting:

06 Ovechkin
07 Crosby (MVP)
08 Ovechkin (MVP)
09 Ovechkin (MVP)
10 Ovechkin
11 Ovechkin (Crosby played half season)
12 both not ranked (Crosby played a quarter season)
13 Ovechkin (MVP)
14 Crosby (MVP)
15 Ovechkin
16 Crosby
17 Crosby
18 Ovechkin

How anyone could come to the conclusion that Crosby was the best player during a 6 year stretch where Ovechkin won 3 Harts and Crosby won none is beyond me.

When you take into account the playoffs for 2008-2009, Crosby arguably edges Ovechkin that year.

Ovechkin played on the offensive minded Boudreau's Caps while the Pens were struggling badly that season before the coaching change. Crosby and Malkin were basically carrying the team on their own (Gonchar was injured). You gotta look at the context and not only look at raw point finishes and trophy voting.

 

[Thenameless]

Very easily Crosby.

 

[BruinsBtn]

I love Bourque but it's Crosby and it's not close. Crosby is on the tier of the best-ever players.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Appeal to emotion

Crosby is appealing to you emotionally? Whatever floats your boat man, I won't judge.

 

[Midnight Judges]

When you take into account the playoffs for 2008-2009, Crosby arguably edges Ovechkin that year.

You think Ovechkin's 10 goals and 21 points in 14 playoff games while being +10 is the deciding factor against him somehow?

After getting 115 first place Hart votes to Crosby's zero?

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Who had the better season/who was the better player

06: OV/OV
07: Crosby/Crosby
08: OV/OV
09: OV/OV
10: OV/OV
11: OV/Crosby
12: OV/Crosby
13: OV/Crosby
14: Crosby/Crosby
15: OV/OV
16: Crosby/Crosby
17: Crosby/Crosby
18: OV/OV

9-4 better seasons for OV, only 13 is really arguable.

7-6 seasons as a better player for Crosby.

 

[ricky0034]

Bourque by a lot

Crosby is incredibly overrated in an all time sense by a lot of people on here,he only won 2 Art Ross trophies and is unlikely to win more at this point,that's nice and all but there's been like a dozen people that have lead the league in scoring more times than that

meanwhile Bourque faced better competition and has 5 Norris trophies

 

[GreatGonzo]

This comparison is trash

You can’t compare a defenseman to a forward. Bourque is arguably 2nd/3rd Best Defenseman ever, while Crosby is arguably a top 5 player ever. Bourque was arguably the better player at his position compared to Crosby.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Bourque by a lot

Crosby is incredibly overrated in an all time sense by a lot of people on here,he only won 2 Art Ross trophies and is unlikely to win more at this point,that's nice and all but there's been like a dozen people that have lead the league in scoring more times than that

meanwhile Bourque faced better competition and has 5 Norris trophies

Players who have won *more* Art Ross trophies than Crosby:
8

Players who have won *more* Hart trophies than Crosby:
8

Players who have won *more* Lindsay/Pearson Awards:
2

The last one, in particular, is telling considering it's the one for "Most Outstanding Player". Only Gretzky and Lemieux have *more* Lindsay/Pearson awards than Crosby.

Overall, though, Crosby's trophy case has been affected by his injuries. If you think durability counts for more than ability, then that's fine. Discount these. But Crosby has lost out on at least 2 Art Ross and at least 2 Hart trophies due to injury. At the very least, that needs to be taken into account when comparing him to all-time players.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Players who have won *more* Art Ross trophies than Crosby:
8

Players who have won *more* Hart trophies than Crosby:
8

Players who have won *more* Lindsay/Pearson Awards:
2

The last one, in particular, is telling considering it's the one for "Most Outstanding Player". Only Gretzky and Lemieux have *more* Lindsay/Pearson awards than Crosby.

Overall, though, Crosby's trophy case has been affected by his injuries. If you think durability counts for more than ability, then that's fine. Discount these. But Crosby has lost out on at least 2 Art Ross and at least 2 Hart trophies due to injury. At the very least, that needs to be taken into account when comparing him to all-time players.

Even then

2 Harts + three second place finishes
2 art Ross
2 Richards
3 Lindsay’s
2 smythes stacks well against any player besides big four

 

[Bouboumaster]

Crosby, but Bourque is an AMAZING d-man.
I put him only behind Orr and Harvey, in his position. He's a legend himself.