Crosby passes Lemieux in games played, will he pass total career points?

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Unrelated, but just watched a vid on Kevin Stevens- things coulda been a lot worse for him without Mario's support. I hope/think Stevens is good for life now, and having a buddy like that continue to support ya.. huge.

 

[mrv52]

Crosby is playing in a 916th regular season game tonight passing Mario. He is still 546 pts short of Mario's career total. With still 6 full years remaining on current contract is he going to pass Lemieux in career points? Despite only making 3m/year in the last 3 years of the deal think he will play it out in full and perhaps a year or two after.

If healthy, would need slightly over PPG for the remaining of his current deal.

Doubtful.

It sure does illustrate how silly the case for Crosby being placed in the top 5 all time is.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Doubtful.

It sure does illustrate how silly the case for Crosby being placed in the top 5 all time is.

How exactly?

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

Crosby is playing in a 916th regular season game tonight passing Mario. He is still 546 pts short of Mario's career total. With still 6 full years remaining on current contract is he going to pass Lemieux in career points? Despite only making 3m/year in the last 3 years of the deal think he will play it out in full and perhaps a year or two after.

If healthy, would need slightly over PPG for the remaining of his current deal.

He will not pass Lemieux in scoring.

 

[beowulf]

Would be surprised if he passes him in career points. Given his production for the last 4-5 seasons and the gap he has to fill I don't see him making it.

 

[NoMessi]

Remind me how young these guys are again

In an english speaking country a former president (until 2018) said to a court that having a shower after sex prevents Aids.

These guys are on that level of stupid.

 

[The Panther]

Wow, more games than Mario! That kind of sneaks up on you. Crosby is right now the same age as Lemieux when he first retired.

If you'd asked me a few years ago if I thought Crosby would have a long career, I would have said no way. He had too many concussions and injuries in his prime.

But he seems to have found a way to stay healthy and avoid dangerous contact in the past four years. I could see him playing out his contract, for sure. One thing we haven't seen, though, since 2006, is Crosby on a bad team. If the Pens bottom out again, say, three years from now, and Crosby is down to 65 points per season, would he want to keep playing if it means losing every night and missing the playoffs? Dunno.

Anyway, based on peak level, Crosby for me is the third-best Penguin ever, though in "franchise importance", he's certainly second. Quite a career.

 

[tread102]

I'd argue Crosby as the more important Pen.. obviously Lemieux was better, obviously his illness was not his fault, but if you're talking how much a player mattered to his franchise.. the case can be made.

Without lemieux there’s no penguins, and Crosby would’ve been somewhere else. There’s a lot of things you can debate. Who is the most important penguin isn’t one of them

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

How exactly?

because in the same # of games, Crosby has 600 fewer points

 

[YippieKaey]

Goalies, defencemen and team defence were horrible in the era where Lemieux got most of his points.

Yes. Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek, Martin Brodeur, Ed Belfour, Ron Hextall, Ray Bourque, Rob Blake, Scott Stevens, Derian Hatcher, Nicklas Lidström etc were all pretty horrible players. Which is why they're all( except Hatcher) in the Horrible Hockeyplayers Of Former times.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Yes. Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek, Martin Brodeur, Ed Belfour, Ron Hextall, Ray Bourque, Rob Blake, Scott Stevens, Derian Hatcher, Nicklas Lidström etc were all pretty horrible players. Which is why they're all( except Hatcher) in the Horrible Hockeyplayers Of Former times.

Leetch, Chelios, MacInnis, Pronger, Niedermayer

 

[PatrikBerglund]

Yes. Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek, Martin Brodeur, Ed Belfour, Ron Hextall, Ray Bourque, Rob Blake, Scott Stevens, Derian Hatcher, Nicklas Lidström etc were all pretty horrible players. Which is why they're all( except Hatcher) in the Horrible Hockeyplayers Of Former times.

So. You named 0.5% of the players and want to make that your argument?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

because in the same # of games, Crosby has 600 fewer points

Yeah but Lemieux is a universally regarded top 4 player of all time. Far above whoever anyone considers #5. You can be the #5 player of all time and not be close to the big four

 

[NextYear67]

In an english speaking country a former president (until 2018) said to a court that having a shower after sex prevents Aids.

These guys are on that level of stupid.

Odd reference but okay

 

[Spektre]

Are you saying that goalies, defencemen, defensive forwards and team defence, were better in the 80s - early 90s, than it is today?

For real?

You're trying to diminish Lemieux's stats based on when he played and it simply doesn't hold up.

In 1995-96 the average goals scored per team per game was 3.14 vs 3.06 this season.
In 1995-96 Lemieux played 70 games, scored 69 goals and 92 helpers for 161 points at the age of 30. Jagr was 2nd in points that year with 149 at the age of 23. Sakic was 3rd with 120 at the age of 26.
The top 5 goals against average in 95-96 was 2.17, 2.17, 2.26, 2.26, & 2.34. So far this year the top 5 are 2.05, 2.28, 2.30, 2.36, & 2.44.
The 1st team All-Star D pairings were Bourque & Chelios, Leetch & Konstantinov vs this year's Doughty & Hedman, Jones & Subban.
Lemieux led the league with a 2.30 PPG.

Lemieux played 1 more year before hanging the skates up for 3 years. He didn't play competitive hockey for 3 years. Just so you are on the same page Lemieux went 3 years without playing hockey. He then returned in 2000-01 at the age of 35. He played 43 games and scored 76 points, 35 goals and 41 assists. Stay with me here because it's easy to get lost. The average goals scored per team per game in 2000-01 was 2.76. Remember from above, that number is 3.06 for the current 2018-19 season? Stay with me because it gets better.

In 2000-01 the top 5 goalie's goals against average 1.90, 2.01, 2.05, 2.11, & 2.17.
Lemieux led the league with 1.77 PPG
Remember he only played 43 games and had 35 goals with 41 assists at the age of 35 after taking 3 years completely away from hockey.
This is at the height of clutching and grabbing era.
There's no 3v3 overtime that Lemieux would have simply dominated and scored even more points.
There's still a 2 line pass rule in affect. Take that rule away and again Lemieux scores even more points.
Kucherov and McDavid lead this year with a PPG average of 1.5. As you've seen from the stats it was harder to score goals in 2000-01 than in 2018-19.

Lemieux after having countless back issues and cancer, retiring from the game for 3 years, came back into a league that was harder to score points in than today and simply dominated the entire league at the age of 35.

People can talk about eras all they want. Put a healthy prime Lemieux in this NHL today and he completely dominates just like he always did while scoring 200 points.

McDavid and others in the NHL today are very very good. Lemieux was simply a lot better.

 

[tread102]

You're trying to diminish Lemieux's stats based on when he played and it simply doesn't hold up.

In 1995-96 the average goals scored per team per game was 3.14 vs 3.06 this season.
In 1995-96 Lemieux played 70 games, scored 69 goals and 92 helpers for 161 points at the age of 30. Jagr was 2nd in points that year with 149 at the age of 23. Sakic was 3rd with 120 at the age of 26.
The top 5 goals against average in 95-96 was 2.17, 2.17, 2.26, 2.26, & 2.34. So far this year the top 5 are 2.05, 2.28, 2.30, 2.36, & 2.44.
The 1st team All-Star D pairings were Bourque & Chelios, Leetch & Konstantinov vs this year's Doughty & Hedman, Jones & Subban.
Lemieux led the league with a 2.30 PPG.

Lemieux played 1 more year before hanging the skates up for 3 years. He didn't play competitive hockey for 3 years. Just so you are on the same page Lemieux went 3 years without playing hockey. He then returned in 2000-01 at the age of 35. He played 43 games and scored 76 points, 35 goals and 41 assists. Stay with me here because it's easy to get lost. The average goals scored per team per game in 2000-01 was 2.76. Remember from above, that number is 3.06 for the current 2018-19 season? Stay with me because it gets better.

In 2000-01 the top 5 goalie's goals against average 1.90, 2.01, 2.05, 2.11, & 2.17.
Lemieux led the league with 1.77 PPG
Remember he only played 43 games and had 35 goals with 41 assists at the age of 35 after taking 3 years completely away from hockey.
This is at the height of clutching and grabbing era.
There's no 3v3 overtime that Lemieux would have simply dominated and scored even more points.
There's still a 2 line pass rule in affect. Take that rule away and again Lemieux scores even more points.
Kucherov and McDavid lead this year with a PPG average of 1.5. As you've seen from the stats it was harder to score goals in 2000-01 than in 2018-19.

Lemieux after having countless back issues and cancer, retiring from the game for 3 years, came back into a league that was harder to score points in than today and simply dominated the entire league at the age of 35.

People can talk about eras all they want. Put a healthy prime Lemieux in this NHL today and he completely dominates just like he always did while scoring 200 points.

McDavid and others in the NHL today are very very good. Lemieux was simply a lot better.

It’s lost on people just how great lemieux was. Young people give Sid and ovi way too much credit, both are amazing, but lemieux would simply run circles around them. Idk if prime Lemieux would get to 2oo points, but he would easily get 160, and my god him 3 on 3

 

[Spektre]

It’s lost on people just how great lemieux was. Young people give Sid and ovi way too much credit, both are amazing, but lemieux would simply run circles around them. Idk if prime Lemieux would get to 2oo points, but he would easily get 160, and my god him 3 on 3

I'm trying to make an educated guess for 200 pts. We know Lemieux at 35 after being out of hockey for 3 years with all his cancer and back problems came into the league and scored at an astounding 1.77ppg. This was when scoring league wide was down to as mentioned before 2.76 goals per game per team. The closest competition for Lemieux that year was a 28 year old Jagr with a 1.49 ppg who also benefited directly from Lemieux.

Lemieux returned on 12/27/2000. Jagr played 36 games before Lemieux's return. In those 36 games Jagr scored 19 goals with 16 assists for a total of 35 points which equals .97ppg. With only 46 games left in the season Lemieux elevated Jagr to a 1.49ppg player from a .97.

Let's keep going. Sakic was 3rd in the league that year with a 1.44ppg pace. Remember, it's harder to score than now because the league had a 2.76 goals per game per team average. The average now is 3.06 with McDavid and Kucherov leading the league at 1.5ppg. Lemieux put up those numbers at 35 so it's not close to his prime. The league is more wide open now compared to then. There's no more ties and he would have played 3v3 approximately 20% of the 82 games. That's 16 games he gets to play 3v3. There's no two line pass and that factors into how open the game is played now. Put Lemieux at the age of 25 and healthy and I think he scores 2.5ppg to break 200 points.

 

[Video Nasty]

You're trying to diminish Lemieux's stats based on when he played and it simply doesn't hold up.

In 1995-96 the average goals scored per team per game was 3.14 vs 3.06 this season.
In 1995-96 Lemieux played 70 games, scored 69 goals and 92 helpers for 161 points at the age of 30. Jagr was 2nd in points that year with 149 at the age of 23. Sakic was 3rd with 120 at the age of 26.
The top 5 goals against average in 95-96 was 2.17, 2.17, 2.26, 2.26, & 2.34. So far this year the top 5 are 2.05, 2.28, 2.30, 2.36, & 2.44.
The 1st team All-Star D pairings were Bourque & Chelios, Leetch & Konstantinov vs this year's Doughty & Hedman, Jones & Subban.
Lemieux led the league with a 2.30 PPG.

Lemieux played 1 more year before hanging the skates up for 3 years. He didn't play competitive hockey for 3 years. Just so you are on the same page Lemieux went 3 years without playing hockey. He then returned in 2000-01 at the age of 35. He played 43 games and scored 76 points, 35 goals and 41 assists. Stay with me here because it's easy to get lost. The average goals scored per team per game in 2000-01 was 2.76. Remember from above, that number is 3.06 for the current 2018-19 season? Stay with me because it gets better.

In 2000-01 the top 5 goalie's goals against average 1.90, 2.01, 2.05, 2.11, & 2.17.
Lemieux led the league with 1.77 PPG
Remember he only played 43 games and had 35 goals with 41 assists at the age of 35 after taking 3 years completely away from hockey.
This is at the height of clutching and grabbing era.
There's no 3v3 overtime that Lemieux would have simply dominated and scored even more points.
There's still a 2 line pass rule in affect. Take that rule away and again Lemieux scores even more points.
Kucherov and McDavid lead this year with a PPG average of 1.5. As you've seen from the stats it was harder to score goals in 2000-01 than in 2018-19.

Lemieux after having countless back issues and cancer, retiring from the game for 3 years, came back into a league that was harder to score points in than today and simply dominated the entire league at the age of 35.

People can talk about eras all they want. Put a healthy prime Lemieux in this NHL today and he completely dominates just like he always did while scoring 200 points.

McDavid and others in the NHL today are very very good. Lemieux was simply a lot better.

Top notch job. I’m interested to see a response because I don’t know what could be said in rebuttal. Lemieux’s performance in every scenario you outlined is such good evidence that the big 4 at the very least would have been dominant in any given era.

Not everything old or new is better, but in this case, Lemieux doing what he did in his old age during the Dead Puck era is the greatest proof that he, Gretzky, Howe and Orr would make fools of players like Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin and McDavid. They are all legends in their own right and even generational, but there are just some players who are beyond them.

I’ve always been of the opinion that we will know the player who makes it a Big Five when we see him. We will know him, there will be no debate. They will come in and lay waste to the league in ways most didn’t think it was possible to do (someone consistently putting up 2 ppg in an environment like today would be a great indicator). McDavid may very well continue an upward trajectory and begin piling up 150+ point seasons while dragging his corpse of a team to Finals that they have no business appearing in.

Both of those things are really hard to believe even possible but then again, that’s what it takes for me at least. The Big 4 all had similar feats.

 

[Kimota]

Lemieux is nowhere near Gretzky or Howe IMO.

Howe was a great player,he was always like Top 3 in his generation but he was not above the rest to the level that Mario was compared to other players. Howe was more like a Messier-type.

 

[The Panther]

Howe was a great player,he was always like Top 3 in his generation but he was not above the rest to the level that Mario was compared to other players. Howe was more like a Messier-type.

Right. When did Messier (or Mario, for that matter) win 4 scoring titles in a row by large margins? Did they become the top scorer of all-time 17 years before their retirement?

Uh-huh.

 

[Kimota]

Right. When did Messier (or Mario, for that matter) win 4 scoring titles in a row by large margins? Did they become the top scorer of all-time 17 years before their retirement?

Uh-huh.

Uh-huh who said he wasn't Great?

I said Howe was a Messier-type in his style. Of course he was more dominant than Messier(even though they ended up with a close amount of points career-wise) and more skilled than most but it's not like he was superior on a league of his own like Mario was when he played. At the time of Howe there were guys like Richard, Beliveau, Dicky Moore, Ted Lindsay, Bobby Hull, Boom Boom, Mikita, etc...who matched him. He was probably the best among that group but he was part of the group. Mario was above any groups, he was a superior machine.

 

[The Panther]

...but it's not like he was superior on a league of his own like Mario was when he played.

Again, when did Mario win four scoring titles in a row by large margins?

 

[tread102]

I'm trying to make an educated guess for 200 pts. We know Lemieux at 35 after being out of hockey for 3 years with all his cancer and back problems came into the league and scored at an astounding 1.77ppg. This was when scoring league wide was down to as mentioned before 2.76 goals per game per team. The closest competition for Lemieux that year was a 28 year old Jagr with a 1.49 ppg who also benefited directly from Lemieux.

Lemieux returned on 12/27/2000. Jagr played 36 games before Lemieux's return. In those 36 games Jagr scored 19 goals with 16 assists for a total of 35 points which equals .97ppg. With only 46 games left in the season Lemieux elevated Jagr to a 1.49ppg player from a .97.

Let's keep going. Sakic was 3rd in the league that year with a 1.44ppg pace. Remember, it's harder to score than now because the league had a 2.76 goals per game per team average. The average now is 3.06 with McDavid and Kucherov leading the league at 1.5ppg. Lemieux put up those numbers at 35 so it's not close to his prime. The league is more wide open now compared to then. There's no more ties and he would have played 3v3 approximately 20% of the 82 games. That's 16 games he gets to play 3v3. There's no two line pass and that factors into how open the game is played now. Put Lemieux at the age of 25 and healthy and I think he scores 2.5ppg to break 200 points.

You’re right. If he played 82 games in his prime he would do it. We forget how many nights he put up 5 plus points. He anticipated the play so well, he would have a ton more chances because of the two line pass rule gone.

 

[NoMessi]

You're trying to diminish Lemieux's stats based on when he played and it simply doesn't hold up.

In 1995-96 the average goals scored per team per game was 3.14 vs 3.06 this season.
In 1995-96 Lemieux played 70 games, scored 69 goals and 92 helpers for 161 points at the age of 30. Jagr was 2nd in points that year with 149 at the age of 23. Sakic was 3rd with 120 at the age of 26.
The top 5 goals against average in 95-96 was 2.17, 2.17, 2.26, 2.26, & 2.34. So far this year the top 5 are 2.05, 2.28, 2.30, 2.36, & 2.44.
The 1st team All-Star D pairings were Bourque & Chelios, Leetch & Konstantinov vs this year's Doughty & Hedman, Jones & Subban.
Lemieux led the league with a 2.30 PPG.

Lemieux played 1 more year before hanging the skates up for 3 years. He didn't play competitive hockey for 3 years. Just so you are on the same page Lemieux went 3 years without playing hockey. He then returned in 2000-01 at the age of 35. He played 43 games and scored 76 points, 35 goals and 41 assists. Stay with me here because it's easy to get lost. The average goals scored per team per game in 2000-01 was 2.76. Remember from above, that number is 3.06 for the current 2018-19 season? Stay with me because it gets better.

In 2000-01 the top 5 goalie's goals against average 1.90, 2.01, 2.05, 2.11, & 2.17.
Lemieux led the league with 1.77 PPG
Remember he only played 43 games and had 35 goals with 41 assists at the age of 35 after taking 3 years completely away from hockey.
This is at the height of clutching and grabbing era.
There's no 3v3 overtime that Lemieux would have simply dominated and scored even more points.
There's still a 2 line pass rule in affect. Take that rule away and again Lemieux scores even more points.
Kucherov and McDavid lead this year with a PPG average of 1.5. As you've seen from the stats it was harder to score goals in 2000-01 than in 2018-19.

Lemieux after having countless back issues and cancer, retiring from the game for 3 years, came back into a league that was harder to score points in than today and simply dominated the entire league at the age of 35.

People can talk about eras all they want. Put a healthy prime Lemieux in this NHL today and he completely dominates just like he always did while scoring 200 points.

McDavid and others in the NHL today are very very good. Lemieux was simply a lot better.

Amazing post, kudos!

 

[CHGoalie27]

Yes. Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek, Martin Brodeur, Ed Belfour, Ron Hextall, Ray Bourque, Rob Blake, Scott Stevens, Derian Hatcher, Nicklas Lidström etc were all pretty horrible players. Which is why they're all( except Hatcher) in the Horrible Hockeyplayers Of Former times.

Leetch, Chelios, MacInnis, Pronger, Niedermayer

...Richter, Cujo, Fetisov, The New Jersey Devils Forwards of the 1990s and early 2000s...