credit where credit is due

[Brian39]

I don't think schwartz, fabbri or senko will have a problem finding schenn in the slot if he's open for a 1-t. the only issue not having a righty on that side does is eliminate any seam pass one-timer opportunities(outside of a cross body one-T), tho if there's anybody i'd want either taking a cross body one-t or a soft catch & shoot would be #91. Maybe we just keep senko on that side(which we've done a ton of times previously) to help offset not having a righty since even tho he's not on his natural right side, he's still such a dangerous threat from the left side it could atleast help makeout for the lack of a righty on that side. Also, i kinda prefer tarasenko catching passes and either walking and passing or walking and shooting rather than him just ripping one-t's at the top of the circle, vladdy's snapper is so deceptive and so accurate and so quick that i'd rather have him just take snappers on the left and allow somebody else to rip the 1-t opportunities on the right side

To expand on Easton's reply, the issue isn't whether our guys can connect a pass to him for a one timer. The issue is that the resulting scoring opportunity isn't as dangerous.

The Giroux to Schenn one timer from the left wall is dangerous because it happens extremely quickly. The one timer isn't about going cross crease and making the goalie slide over. Instead, it is about very quickly altering the shooting angle with a 5-10 foot area pass and hammering the puck on net before the goalie can re-set. It works due to aa combination of 2 reasons:

1: the goalie has to respect the shooter because a righty can hold the puck in a mid danger scoring area even when hanging out of the perimeter.

2: a pass from a righty off the left wall is harder for a goalie to read than a pass from a lefty. To connect that pass, the lefty either has to cross the puck in front of his body (if square to the net for a shot) or position his body in a way that he is no longer a threat to beat a goalie with a clean shot. A righty can connect that pass from a shooting position, so the decision to pass/shoot is made at the last second (instead of the second to last second). Every NHL goalie is incredibly good at reading the puck off the blade of the shooter and is going to recognize that a pass is coming from a lefty in that spot quicker than from a righty. Simply put, once the puck carrier decides to go for the one timer, the play is executed more quickly with a righty than a lefty.

So you have 2 factors that combine for a play that leaves the goalie in trouble: He can't cheat to the one timer (even if he knows it's coming) and the time between the release of the pass and the incoming shot is incredibly short. With a lefty, the goalie can cheat a little bit more and has a split second extra between pass to shot. So it doesn't matter that are lefties are capable of executing the play and getting the puck on his tape. The goalie is going to be more square to the one-timed shot when the pass is from a lefty, so it just isn't as dangerous of a play for a goalie to deal with.

Edit: With all this said, I'm not too worried about it at the moment. In looking through some of the videos posted, it appears that Schenn is able to score on the PP in a variety of ways. While this may be the best tool in his bag, he is far from a one trick pony. I also want to experiment with Petro or Parayko playing along the left wall (preferably Parayko as I think his wrist shot is better than Petro's). That wouldn't be nearly the scoring threat of Giroux, but having Tarasenko on the right side is a better cross ice option than Giroux has, so goalies/PKs would have to respect that a little more.

 

[EastonBlues22]

^^So how would you all arrange the PP1 and PP2 units?

Some of that depends on who makes the team. I throw some units together for now, but they might look very different if one or more of Dunn, Walman, or Thompson are on the roster.

PP1 - Run through Tarasenko on the R half-wall, with Schmaltz at the point and Pietrangelo as the weak-side D. Schwartz in the mid/low slot and around the net. Stastny in the corner and around the net.

PP2 - Run through Parayko (LHD/L half-wall) and Steen (RHD/point) up top. Let them work it back and forth trying to set up one-timers for each other. Fabbri is on the right half-wall, either as the right side of an umbrella, or as the weak-side option if using a rotation play to clear space for the right half-wall. Schenn in the mid/low slot and around the net. Sobotka in the corner and around the net.

Schwartz and Schenn are basically interchangeable. Mix and match as needed to minimize disruption of the ES line combos.

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

Some of that depends on who makes the team. I throw some units together for now, but they might look very different if one or more of Dunn, Walman, or Thompson are on the roster.

PP1 - Run through Tarasenko on the R half-wall, with Schmaltz at the point and Pietrangelo as the weak-side D. Schwartz in the mid/low slot and around the net. Stastny in the corner and around the net.

PP2 - Run through Parayko (LHD/L half-wall) and Steen (RHD/point) up top. Let them work it back and forth trying to set up one-timers for each other. Fabbri is on the right half-wall, either as the right side of an umbrella, or as the weak-side option if using a rotation play to clear space for the right half-wall. Schenn in the mid/low slot and around the net. Sobotka in the corner and around the net.

Schwartz and Schenn are basically interchangeable. Mix and match as needed to minimize disruption of the ES line combos.

I think I would move Pietrangelo to the PP#2 and Parayko to #1 Let Parayko be LHD/L halfwall and have Tarasenko on the other side. Stastny behind the net, Schwartz in upper/mid slot and Schmaltz covering RHD/Mid Blue Line. This way, if a Parayko one-timer misses, you have Tarasenko on the far side who can rip in a quick wrister and forcing goalie to respect both players. Steen/Schenn can work the slapshot/slappass deflection game on PP#2.

 

[execwrite]

These are the ten players who scored 23 goals this past season ranked by salary - blast away

Rick Nash $8 million
David Krejci $7.25 million
Nicklas Backstrom $7 million
Phil Kessel $7 million
Andrew Ladd $5.5 million (adjusted cap hit)
James Neal $5 million
Milan Lucic $4 million
Jakob Silfvberg $4 million
Vincent Trocheck $3.75 million
Patrick Berglund $3.7 million
Conor Sheary $575,000

 

[BlueDream]

These are the ten players who scored 23 goals this past season ranked by salary - blast away

Rick Nash $8 million
David Krejci $7.25 million
Nicklas Backstrom $7 million
Phil Kessel $7 million
Andrew Ladd $5.5 million (adjusted cap hit)
James Neal $5 million
Milan Lucic $4 million
Jakob Silfvberg $4 million
Vincent Trocheck $3.75 million
Patrick Berglund $3.7 million
Conor Sheary $575,000

Let's not just sit here and pretend the vast majority of those guys aren't way better players than Berglund.

 

[STL BLUES]

These are the ten players who scored 23 goals this past season ranked by salary - blast away

Rick Nash $8 million
David Krejci $7.25 million
Nicklas Backstrom $7 million
Phil Kessel $7 million
Andrew Ladd $5.5 million (adjusted cap hit)
James Neal $5 million
Milan Lucic $4 million
Jakob Silfvberg $4 million
Vincent Trocheck $3.75 million
Patrick Berglund $3.7 million
Conor Sheary $575,000

After nine seasons as a Blue Note Bergie had a carrer NHL high of 23 goals last season playing in 82 games. In last seasons eleven playoff games he potted zero goals. Several on your list got over zero playoff goals last season.

 

[Spektre]

These are the ten players who scored 23 goals this past season ranked by salary - blast away

Rick Nash $8 million
David Krejci $7.25 million
Nicklas Backstrom $7 million
Phil Kessel $7 million
Andrew Ladd $5.5 million (adjusted cap hit)
James Neal $5 million
Milan Lucic $4 million
Jakob Silfvberg $4 million
Vincent Trocheck $3.75 million
Patrick Berglund $3.7 million
Conor Sheary $575,000

Proof that Army should rip up his contract and sign him for 8 years around 7 million / yr.

 

[TheDizee]

Berglund is best used on the 3rd line. Because of injuries, he was used on the 2nd. IMO that is why he was subpar in the playoffs.

Berglund is gonna cause teams alot of issues if we can get him against other teams 3rd lines.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

These are the ten players who scored 23 goals this past season ranked by salary - blast away

Rick Nash $8 million
David Krejci $7.25 million
Nicklas Backstrom $7 million
Phil Kessel $7 million
Andrew Ladd $5.5 million (adjusted cap hit)
James Neal $5 million
Milan Lucic $4 million
Jakob Silfvberg $4 million
Vincent Trocheck $3.75 million
Patrick Berglund $3.7 million
Conor Sheary $575,000

Now, compare his Assists to those players also. Love Bergy, hell I'm one of the few that will defend him day in and day out, but, he got real hot in a time where the team was frozen and carried this team for awhile.

 

[2 Minute Minor]

Let's not just sit here and pretend the vast majority of those guys aren't way better players than Berglund.

If you factor in the contracts, I'd much rather have Berglund than most of those guys (Nash at that number is scary.)

 

[BlueDream]

If you factor in the contracts, I'd much rather have Berglund than most of those guys (Nash at that number is scary.)

Aside from him, Ladd would probably be the only other bad one.

All the others are clearly better.

 

[Majorityof1]

If you factor in the contracts, I'd much rather have Berglund than most of those guys (Nash at that number is scary.)

You'd rather have Berglund than Kessel (70 points), Trocheck (54), Backstrom (86), Silfvberg (49) or Sheary (53)? That's nuts. All of those are clearly more valuable than Berglund, even at their price tag. Every other one I named put up more points per dollar spent than Berglund. They are all legit top 6 players, which Berglund is not. This was a career year for Berglund in goals, and his total points were terrible. And the length of Berglund's contract makes him problematic, so its not like he has a wonderful deal either. Trade Berglund and dump Gunnarson and we could afford anyone of the above and be a better team for it.

 

[simon IC]

View attachment 96185

 

[2 Minute Minor]

You'd rather have Berglund than Kessel (70 points), Trocheck (54), Backstrom (86), Silfvberg (49) or Sheary (53)? That's nuts. All of those are clearly more valuable than Berglund, even at their price tag. Every other one I named put up more points per dollar spent than Berglund. They are all legit top 6 players, which Berglund is not. This was a career year for Berglund in goals, and his total points were terrible. And the length of Berglund's contract makes him problematic, so its not like he has a wonderful deal either. Trade Berglund and dump Gunnarson and we could afford anyone of the above and be a better team for it.

There are 10 other names on that list. Of those, Kesse, Backstrom are the only two no-brainers for me. There are a couple close calls, and then several I would actively not prefer (for the money). I said "most" not "all".

 

[Majorityof1]

There are 10 other names on that list. Of those, Kesse, Backstrom are the only two no-brainers for me. There are a couple close calls, and then several I would actively not prefer (for the money). I said "most" not "all".

There are 10 names besides Berglund total on the list. I named 5 that all have much better points per dollar than Berglund. That is half of 10. Most would be more than half. So which ones of the 5 I listed did you disagree with? I'd add Krejci, Neil and Lucic over Berglund as well personally, although I can definitely see an argument otherwise on those 3. But the 5 I listed (Kessel, Backstrom, Trocheck, Sheary and Silfvberg) are all pretty easy choices. Ladd and Nash are the only ones I'd prefer Berglund over.

How the heck is Trocheck not a no-brainer? 23-year old RH C who put up back to back 20+g, 50+p seasons while being the biggest threat on his line (Riley Smith and Jokinen) for less than $1M more than Berglund.

 

[Oberyn]

Trocheck and Silfverberg should be no-brainers as well. I'm not sure I'd take Sheary over Berglund, I question how effective Sheary would be away from Crosby.

 

[Brian39]

I've been adamantly against the Bergie contract from the day it was signed. With that said, I've never argued that it is a horrible contract when compared to the market value of a player like Bergie.

My issue from day 1 is that allocating that type of term and money to your 3rd line is foolish cap management. Especially for a player with Bergie's injury history. And especially with a NMC in one year and a pretty hefty NTC in the other 4 years. I think at least half of that list is composed of players who are clearly better than Bergie and half of the remaining players are debateable but I'd pick a couple over Bergie factoring in their contracts. 4 of the contracts in that list are universally considered horrendous and difficult-impossible to move due to the terms.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Bergie can score 20+ in each season, that contract is great. But is there any reason to believe he will do that? He hasn't had back to back 20 goals seasons in his career. He had gone 3 years without one before last year. He certainly isn't going to do it this year since he is out until December. Normally I'd say injuries are unpredictable and tough luck, but was anyone surprised that Bergie is going to miss more time due to a shoulder issue?

 

[2 Minute Minor]

There are 10 names besides Berglund total on the list. I named 5 that all have much better points per dollar than Berglund. That is half of 10. Most would be more than half. So which ones of the 5 I listed did you disagree with? I'd add Krejci, Neil and Lucic over Berglund as well personally, although I can definitely see an argument otherwise on those 3. But the 5 I listed (Kessel, Backstrom, Trocheck, Sheary and Silfvberg) are all pretty easy choices. Ladd and Nash are the only ones I'd prefer Berglund over.

How the heck is Trocheck not a no-brainer? 23-year old RH C who put up back to back 20+g, 50+p seasons while being the biggest threat on his line (Riley Smith and Jokinen) for less than $1M more than Berglund.

I'm not really sure why you're nitpicking my comment.

So make it 4 of 10 I'd take, and a couple that are debatable where reasonable people will disagree, and a few that are universally unattractive. Will that withstand the scrutiny of the forum comment police?

 

[Majorityof1]

I'm not really sure why you're nitpicking my comment.

So make it 4 of 10 I'd take, and a couple that are debatable where reasonable people will disagree, and a few that are universally unattractive. Will that withstand the scrutiny of the forum comment police?

I apologize if I was nitpicking. I was trying to have a conversation with a poster I respect (although more than occasionally disagree with) on a comment I found strange. I was shocked by how I interpreted your comment (You'd take Berg over 6 of those 10). I was curious about which ones you'd rather have Berglund then, and the reasoning on the ones I saw as no-brainers. If it was a poster I didn't have respect for, I would have just chalked it up to them being ignorant of other players. But even when I disagree with you, I know you aren't ignorant. So I was curious which you liked less than Berglund and why on the ones that are clearly easy choices for me. That obviously came across wrong given the response. So I will drop it.

 

[2 Minute Minor]

I apologize if I was nitpicking. I was trying to have a conversation with a poster I respect (although more than occasionally disagree with) on a comment I found strange. I was shocked by how I interpreted your comment (You'd take Berg over 6 of those 10). I was curious about which ones you'd rather have Berglund then, and the reasoning on the ones I saw as no-brainers. If it was a poster I didn't have respect for, I would have just chalked it up to them being ignorant of other players. But even when I disagree with you, I know you aren't ignorant. So I was curious which you liked less than Berglund and why on the ones that are clearly easy choices for me. That obviously came across wrong given the response. So I will drop it.

I think I'm getting crap just a little too often from a couple people here, and I assumed this was more of the same. Its mainly just 2 or 3 that keep tweaking me, but I guess I've gotten defensive. My apologies.

My original comment does not reflect a strong opinion that I hold, and chances are you'd probably persuade me to change my mind on a couple players if we hashed it out. I simply feel that Berglund is worth his salary, and that if he is a real 20 goal scorer that's a pretty attractive deal for a dependable 3rd line guy. Some of those guys on the list would cost the Blues another similarly priced player, adn

I think the main issue here is: do you view Berglund as a legit 20 goal scorer going forward, or was this past year an anomaly? I think with his shoulder repair (the first one) there is reason to think that he may have found something he'd lost when the joint was loose. The lack of assists is concerning, though. But I could see how someone would dismiss the surgery as not having a big impact, and that it was a more flukey 23 goal campaign.

Its a shame he had to have his other shoulder repaired, since this year he almost certainly won't show us the same level of play. Next season, with luck, he'll be back to a fully rehabbed guy.

 

[Majorityof1]

I think I'm getting crap just a little too often from a couple people here, and I assumed this was more of the same. Its mainly just 2 or 3 that keep tweaking me, but I guess I've gotten defensive. My apologies.

My original comment does not reflect a strong opinion that I hold, and chances are you'd probably persuade me to change my mind on a couple players if we hashed it out. I simply feel that Berglund is worth his salary, and that if he is a real 20 goal scorer that's a pretty attractive deal for a dependable 3rd line guy. Some of those guys on the list would cost the Blues another similarly priced player, adn

I think the main issue here is: do you view Berglund as a legit 20 goal scorer going forward, or was this past year an anomaly? I think with his shoulder repair (the first one) there is reason to think that he may have found something he'd lost when the joint was loose. The lack of assists is concerning, though. But I could see how someone would dismiss the surgery as not having a big impact, and that it was a more flukey 23 goal campaign.

Its a shame he had to have his other shoulder repaired, since this year he almost certainly won't show us the same level of play. Next season, with luck, he'll be back to a fully rehabbed guy.

Its ok. I can be a bit acerbic when I get in a discussion....and by a bit, probably a lot. I probably came on a bit strong in questioning your stance. Anyway....

It only half about Berglund for me. The rest is a fundamental disagreement in how our roster is constructed. IMO, it is critical you maximize limited cap space. If I am going to pay market rate, I want to pay market rate for top 6 guys because those are the guys that get the most playing time, and are harder to find. Mid-30 point guys aren't as hard to find and you can grab them for cheap. Its much easier to ask our young guys to fill a 3rd line 30 point role, than a 50 point one. So I'd rather spend more on a Top 6 improvement and have a guy like Paajarvi or Bennett punching a bit above their weight class on the 3rd line getting 20 points and having a 50 point guy than two Berglund-esque players getting 30 a piece (50+20 > 30 x 2).

As for Berglund, as a general rule, points matter to me more than just goals. From the eye test, if he wasn't scoring he was useless offensively. He didn't make other players better. He only contributed positively offensively on 40 plays, he just got lucky to convert on most of them. A guy who scores 19 goals and 36 assists is much more valuable to me than a guy who scores 23 goals and 11 assists. Yet people look at the fact that the 4 extra goals as being a huge difference and ignore the dozens of assists. That 19, 36 is Schwartz. The players I am pointing out are putting up close to that Schwartz level production. Would you take Schwartz (55 points, $5.35M) or Berglund? Or conversely, why is the Ladd contract so terrible when he put up 23 goals? If goals are what matters and Berglund is a good deal, then shouldn't Ladd's 23 goals for $1.5M more be only a slightly bad deal? Instead its considered an albatross because he only had 8 assists. It seems Berglund is being judged with lower expectations. If he can be ok defensively, solid on puck possession, and contribute on 20 goals, he is worth $4M. When a guy like Perron contributed on a lot more plays with his assists at less of a cap hit. He had a few less goals though and some people had a party when he left town. Would you rather have a 46 point player or a 34 point one for the same price? Are Berglunds intangibles and 5 more goals really worth that much more than those 17 assists?

Berglund plays a really strong slow-plodding possession game, but we are going away from that, into a faster game. We don't have the line mates to support that style of play. Until he learns to turn that possession into strong chances for his linemates, its pretty useless. His long possession usually just ends in a weak shot or turnover going the other way. I also don't buy the "he's finally healthy argument". His regression was for years, not a season or two, but 3 or 4 seasons. So Berglund is a good player, but given his role on the 3rd line, he is a guy that is valuable with a cheap cap hit, not a guy you pay market rate for.

 

[2 Minute Minor]

I thought Berglund showed the value of his slow plodding game pretty decisively when he came back from his shoulder surgery and the Blues stopped looking like garbage. The possession he provided settled the whole team.

 

[simon IC]

I thought Berglund showed the value of his slow plodding game pretty decisively when he came back from his shoulder surgery and the Blues stopped looking like garbage. The possession he provided settled the whole team.

Bingo, that is often overlooked. I know Bergie isn't the fastest player on the team, but I think "plodding" is an exaggeration. He has a long stride that might make him appear to be slower than he is. He's no speedster, but his "slowness" is overblown on here. He isn't a pylon.

 

[HighNote]

I've been adamantly against the Bergie contract from the day it was signed. With that said, I've never argued that it is a horrible contract when compared to the market value of a player like Bergie.

My issue from day 1 is that allocating that type of term and money to your 3rd line is foolish cap management. Especially for a player with Bergie's injury history. And especially with a NMC in one year and a pretty hefty NTC in the other 4 years. I think at least half of that list is composed of players who are clearly better than Bergie and half of the remaining players are debateable but I'd pick a couple over Bergie factoring in their contracts. 4 of the contracts in that list are universally considered horrendous and difficult-impossible to move due to the terms.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Bergie can score 20+ in each season, that contract is great. But is there any reason to believe he will do that? He hasn't had back to back 20 goals seasons in his career. He had gone 3 years without one before last year. He certainly isn't going to do it this year since he is out until December. Normally I'd say injuries are unpredictable and tough luck, but was anyone surprised that Bergie is going to miss more time due to a shoulder issue?

Patrik Berglund scored 22 goals from Dec. 15 to April 9.

 

[Majorityof1]

Bingo, that is often overlooked. I know Bergie isn't the fastest player on the team, but I think "plodding" is an exaggeration. He has a long stride that might make him appear to be slower than he is. He's no speedster, but his "slowness" is overblown on here. He isn't a pylon.

"Plodding" was probably a poor choice of words. But stylistically his slower tempo does not fit with speedier guys we have for 3rd line wing now. I get the value of his possession game. I am a constant defender of Jaskin, and Jaskin is Berglund without the goal scoring ability. So how can I defend one player and not a very similar player who can also add 20 goals. It all comes down to cap hit and the $3M difference between those two players. For $4M, Berglund has to be able to convert his possession into more offensive chances.