Speculation: Crawford

[Pez68]

We just have to wait for a bunch of bandwaggoners to die off 1st...the ones still under the delusion that he's "Average" or was "carried by the team". His 2015 Jennings win was more due to his play than it was on the D in front of him.

I don't know if his number will be up in the rafters, but anyone who was paying attention in 2015, 2016, and especially early last year knows precisely what he brought to a team where the D was on the downskid.

I disagree on 2015 entirely... Raanta and Darling both put up better numbers than Crawford. The team defense in 2015 was still great.

 

[ChiHawks10]

I disagree on 2015 entirely... Raanta and Darling both put up better numbers than Crawford. The team defense in 2015 was still great.

Crow has always been underrated. Even by you at one point

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

I disagree on 2015 entirely... Raanta and Darling both put up better numbers than Crawford. The team defense in 2015 was still great.

Small sample size for the win. 25 starts between them.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Small sample size for the win. 25 starts between them.

I think he was making the point that the team D had a larger effect on the goalie numbers than the overall goalie play that season.

 

[Pez68]

Which is all the backups will ever play. The point I was making is that the team defense in 2015 was not bad. If it was, those two would not have put up such great numbers, regardless of sample size. Because neither are great goalies. And the Hawks wouldn't have won the cup, either.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Which is all the backups will ever play. The point I was making is that the team defense in 2015 was not bad. If it was, those two would not have put up such great numbers, regardless of sample size. Because neither are great goalies. And the Hawks wouldn't have won the cup, either.

Team D had to be good, or the Hawks wouldn't have won the Cup on the backs of playing 4 D nightly throughout the playoffs.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Which is all the backups will ever play. The point I was making is that the team defense in 2015 was not bad. If it was, those two would not have put up such great numbers, regardless of sample size. Because neither are great goalies. And the Hawks wouldn't have won the cup, either.

Fair enough. I rescind my dickish statement.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

I disagree on 2015 entirely... Raanta and Darling both put up better numbers than Crawford. The team defense in 2015 was still great.

Darling and Raanta played a 1/4 the games Crawford did

Crawford 57 games
Raanta 14
Darling 14

Its laughable to compare them and say "Raanta and Darling put up better numbers"

 

[ChiHawks10]

Darling and Raanta played a 1/4 the games Crawford did

Crawford 57 games
Raanta 14
Darling 14

Its laughable to compare them and say "Raanta and Darling put up better numbers"

Gotta read the other posts, BWC. Context. He's using that info to make the point that average goalies still put up good numbers, also, because the team D was better than @LordKOTL made it out to be.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Those back up goalies also played against the much weaker teams (on average) when they did play.

 

[LordKOTL]

I disagree on 2015 entirely... Raanta and Darling both put up better numbers than Crawford. The team defense in 2015 was still great.

Gotta read the other posts, BWC. Context. He's using that info to make the point that average goalies still put up good numbers, also, because the team D was better than @LordKOTL made it out to be.

2015 was the start of the downskid, not the bottom of the downskid (which we might not have even hit yet). The team D numbers were much tighter in 2014 and before.

Couple that as well with the fact that neither Raanta nor Darling had a book made on them yet. Usually it takes awhile before a netminder's weaknesses are regularly exploited.

The 2015 was much less of a committee D then it was in the years prior when the 'hawks were a force. In fact, Keith pretty much ran the playoffs that year and the rest of the D was nowhere near as smothering as it was in the past--especially 2010 and 2013. For the first time since the 80's the 'hawks netminders saw 30+ shots/game on average starting in 2015. Crawford's job in 2015 was harder than it was in 2013...and he still walked out sharing a Jennings with Carey Price.

 

[ChiHawks10]

2015 was the start of the downskid, not the bottom of the downskid (which we might not have even hit yet). The team D numbers were much tighter in 2014 and before.

Couple that as well with the fact that neither Raanta nor Darling had a book made on them yet. Usually it takes awhile before a netminder's weaknesses are regularly exploited.

The 2015 was much less of a committee D then it was in the years prior when the 'hawks were a force. In fact, Keith pretty much ran the playoffs that year and the rest of the D was nowhere near as smothering as it was in the past--especially 2010 and 2013. For the first time since the 80's the 'hawks netminders saw 30+ shots/game on average starting in 2015. Crawford's job in 2015 was harder than it was in 2013...and he still walked out sharing a Jennings with Carey Price.

Team D does not mean only the defensemen. I'm speaking(and Pez as well) to the overall defensive play of the entire team.

The Hawks had a top 5 "Team Defense" in 2015.

https://thehockeywriters.com/the-nhls-top-defensive-teams-for-2015-16/

I'm well aware that the top 4 D were dominant in the playoffs, and Keith, in particular, carried that D corps to a Cup win. The entire team was very, very good defensively, though, which makes life easier on goalies.

Team Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

The Hawks had the 2nd best CF% in 2015, at 53.60%. They also had a top 10 PK. They also had a top 3 GAA. They also had the 2nd least shots against that season. Only Vancouver gave up less shots against. AKA: Team defense was outstanding. The entire team. Not just the defensemen.

Yes, shots against were slightly up from previous years. But that doesn't matter if the majority are garbage chances from garbage areas of the ice. And they were. And that number was still less than any other team in the NHL but one that season. Whether it was elevated in comparison to other years is irrelevant.

 

[Pez68]

Ding ding ding....

 

[LordKOTL]

Team D does not mean only the defensemen. I'm speaking(and Pez as well) to the overall defensive play of the entire team.

The Hawks had a top 5 "Team Defense" in 2015.

https://thehockeywriters.com/the-nhls-top-defensive-teams-for-2015-16/

I'm well aware that the top 4 D were dominant in the playoffs, and Keith, in particular, carried that team to a Cup win. The entire team was very, very good defensively.

Based on the criteria of the link you provided, the largest metric affecting that was goals against--45% of the metric used...which includes the goalies proper.

We're arguing different things here. In both 2013 and 2015 Crawford co-won a Jennings--meaning the 'hawks were at least *tied* with the top team in the league for GA which is the largest metric of the formula in the link provided. In 2013 Crawford posted a 1.94 GAA seeing 26.53 SA/GP. In 2015 he posted a 2.27 GAA seeing 29.14 SA/GP.

In any universe 26.53 SA/GP is better than 2.91 SA/GP as a team metric. Those extra shots were being generated by something that the skaters in front of him were not doing as well as they did in years prior. Ergo, Crawford's job was harder in 2015 and he was more instrumental in the cup win *and* his Jenning than he was in 2013. The D might have been great in 2015, but it was worse than the preceding seasons.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Based on the criteria of the link you provided, the largest metric affecting that was goals against--45% of the metric used...which includes the goalies proper.

We're arguing different things here. In both 2013 and 2015 Crawford co-won a Jennings--meaning the 'hawks were at least *tied* with the top team in the league for GA which is the largest metric of the formula in the link provided. In 2013 Crawford posted a 1.94 GAA seeing 26.53 SA/GP. In 2015 he posted a 2.27 GAA seeing 29.14 SA/GP.

In any universe 26.53 SA/GP is better than 2.91 SA/GP as a team metric. Those extra shots were being generated by something that the skaters in front of him were not doing as well as they did in years prior. Ergo, Crawford's job was harder in 2015 and he was more instrumental in the cup win *and* his Jenning than he was in 2013. The D might have been great in 2015, but it was worse than the preceding seasons.

And GAA is a terrible stat. As it's more of a team stat, and not specifically a goalie stat. And not arguing different things. The only point being made was to disprove your assertion that Crawford had to work a lot harder in 2015. That his play was more instrumental than anything in his Jennings. When in all reality, in 2015, Crawford was still playing behind the 2nd best defensive team in the NHL...

BTW, you're arguing that a 2.5 shots against increase paired with a 1/3 percentage point increase from 1.94 to 2.27 in his GAA means that he was better, and more instrumental in the Jennings in 2015? Doesn't make sense. An extra 2 shots per game is not a very large decrease in team defense. Especially when you look at the big picture with the corsi stats, and the fact that Crawford still saw less shots than any other goalie in the NHL except one.

The fact remains, Crow still played behind the 2nd best statistically defensive team in the NHL in 2015, and saw less shots than all but one team, ergo his team defense in front of him was extremely instrumental in his Jennings. The team is always instrumental in the Jennings.

None of this is to take away from Crow. I've loved Crow for a long time, and was a huge fan of his prior to many, when people used to complain about soft goals and a lack of fortitude when it came to moving on after bad goals and such. He's a great goalie. And I've always argued for him. I'm still of the belief that he was a top 5 NHL goalie during his run. But Crawford did not work much harder in 2015 in comparison to his other years. Two extra shots a game is not working a lot harder...

 

[LordKOTL]

And GAA is a terrible stat. As it's more of a team stat, and not specifically a goalie stat. And not arguing different things. The only point being made was to disprove your assertion that Crawford had to work a lot harder in 2015. That his play was more instrumental than anything in his Jennings. When in all reality, in 2015, Crawford was still playing behind the 2nd best defensive team in the NHL...

BTW, you're arguing that a 2.5 shots against increase paired with a 1/3 percentage point increase from 1.94 to 2.27 in his GAA means that he was better, and more instrumental in the Jennings in 2015? Doesn't make sense. An extra 2 shots per game is not a very large decrease in team defense. Especially when you look at the big picture with the corsi stats, and the fact that Crawford still saw less shots than any other goalie in the NHL except one.

The fact remains, Crow still played behind the 2nd best statistically defensive team in the NHL in 2015, and saw less shots than all but one team, ergo his team defense in front of him was extremely instrumental in his Jennings. The team is always instrumental in the Jennings.

None of this is to take away from Crow. I've loved Crow for a long time, and was a huge fan of his prior to many, when people used to complain about soft goals and a lack of fortitude when it came to moving on after bad goals and such. He's a great goalie. And I've always argued for him. I'm still of the belief that he was a top 5 NHL goalie during his run. But Crawford did not work much harder in 2015 in comparison to his other years. Two extra shots a game is not working a lot harder...

Link to prove it?

By my numbers, Crawford saw 29.14 SA/GP: 1661 shots over 57 games:
Holtby was 27.45
Rask was 28.73
Schenider was 28.72
Smith saw more at 31.53
Price saw more at 29.55
Quick was 26.33
Lehtonen was 28.84
MAF was 28.61
Niemi saw more at 29.69
Rinne was 28.23
Varlamov saw more at 31.42
Lou was at 28.57
Bernier saw more at 29.91
Halak saw more at 29.41
Bob Ross saw more at 32.00
Dubnyk was at 28.02
Bishop was at 26.13
Scrivens was at 27.05
Enroth saw more at 30.08

For the 20 goalies who saw the most total shots, 11 saw less per game than Crawford. All numbers pulled from NHL.com.

And further, the 'hawks as a team allowed more shots than 2/3rds of the league in 2015.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Link to prove it?

By my numbers, Crawford saw 29.14 SA/GP: 1661 shots over 57 games:
Holtby was 27.45
Rask was 28.73
Schenider was 28.72
Smith saw more at 31.53
Price saw more at 29.55
Quick was 26.33
Lehtonen was 28.84
MAF was 28.61
Niemi saw more at 29.69
Rinne was 28.23
Varlamov saw more at 31.42
Lou was at 28.57
Bernier saw more at 29.91
Halak saw more at 29.41
Bob Ross saw more at 32.00
Dubnyk was at 28.02
Bishop was at 26.13
Scrivens was at 27.05
Enroth saw more at 30.08

For the 20 goalies who saw the most total shots, 11 saw less per game than Crawford. All numbers pulled from NHL.com.

And further, the 'hawks as a team allowed more shots than 2/3rds of the league in 2015.

Sorry, I meant as a team, Blackhawks goalies saw less shots than all but one other NHL team, not necessarily just Crawford. That's my mistake.

2014-15 NHL Summary | Hockey-Reference.com

Scroll over to SA. The Hawks allowed 2127 shots. Less than all but one team, Vancouver, who allowed 1993.

Again, this goes to my statement that the Hawks team defense was instrumental in the performance of the goalies that season. Again, the Hawks were the 2nd best defensive team in the NHL that season, statistically speaking. And from my recollection of their play, that is entirely accurate. Which, again, is why they could ride 4 defensemen through the entirety of the playoffs.

Not sure where you're getting the whole "the 'hawks as a team allowed more shots than 2/3rds of the league in 2015." from. It's wrong. I'm assuming you're using 2015-2016, not 2014-2015. The Cup season is 14-15, not 15-16. And 15-16 is a whole different ballgame. They were bottom 5 in the NHL in SA that season. It was a disgustingly bad team defense that year.

 

[The Worst One]

Because a certain someone does nothing on here but harass other people with his posts.

I'll be done talking about it now.

That's very low. Anyhow for how long have you been a Hawks fan?
I've been for 25 years.

 

[ChiHawks10]

That's very low. Anyhow for how long have you been a Hawks fan?
I've been for 25 years.

I'm 33 and have played and watched hockey since I was 5. So about 28 years.

 

[The Worst One]

I'm 33 and have played and watched hockey since I was 5. So about 28 years.

Almost the same as me. My only experience playing hockey was on the pond, and even then I was put in the net because I couldn't skate backwards and always fell on my arse. Funny stuff. I used to play rugby though and had a little bit of success in doing so as I had the honor to represent my country on international stage every once and while.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Its fascinating but if you think about it people are essentially arguing how important Rozy and if not for Rozy our top 4 would have been unable to carry itself the way it did in playoffs as they would have been burned out

So thanks for finally giving Rozy his due and admitting he was solid part of 2015 team

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Spin spin

 

[Marotte Marauder]

I will take 5 more low quality shots instead of one high quality scoring chance.

 

[BK]

Getting back to Crawford discussion I wanted to bring this back to life to ask if you believe Crawford will have his # retired?

IMO at this point he should be worthy of honor

He is easily among the greatest goaltenders to play for this organization

- He is 3rd most winning goalie in franchise history with 230 wins (Esposito and Hall only one's with more)
- His 48 playoff wins is most in franchise history
- Is only goalie in franchise history to win multiple Stanley Cups with team

People will argue he doesn't have the personal awards but its pretty widely accepted that he was robbed of 2013 Conn Smythe largely because media didn't want to award it to goalie for 3rd straight year and have talk of it becoming a goalie award

Before his health issues he was a safe bet to hit 300 win mark though now that is no longer a certain or safe bet

I expect #50 to hang from rafters someday and the HOF requirement that some fans talk about went out window with Maggie going up there so shouldn't be held against Crawford or anyone else in future

Not yet but if he can come back and plays a few more (2-3 seasons) well then I think he will possibly get his number retired.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Our bottom pairing was hot garbage. It took Seabrook, Hammer and Oduya all playing outstanding hockey and Keith going full cyborg with Crow playing lights out to win in 15. Rozi getting hurt helped that team win because Q couldn’t use him twenty minutes a night.

Rozi was a rock in 13. No clue why BWC wants to bring up Rozi’s pylon years.