Injury Report: Crawford (head)

[Hawkaholic]

You can if you pay him out. You realize this is nothing like those deals as it has no term left right?

No, you can't. he has to agree to it. It's the exact same as a deal with term left on it. The term is just the rest of the year, instead of multiple years.

 

[Hawkaholic]

What PR? Wtf are you guys talking about?

This would be just like the Garrison termination.

There is no way the Hawks bring in a UFA for 3mil, give him a NMC, and then try to get out of it in every way possible because a young kid has performed better. It would look bad for any future UFAs that want to come here, hence...PR.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

If Crawford is healthy and can play, then he should play. That's his decision. Love all these armchair doctors saying he should retire. No one knows how he feels except him.

Yeah, let the doctors do their thing. Should Crosby or Toews have retired years ago? Apparently, by some of the posters on here. If the doctors say he can play, he gets to make that call.

 

[LDF]

Yeah, let the doctors do their thing. Should Crosby or Toews have retired years ago? Apparently, by some of the posters on here. If the doctors say he can play, he gets to make that call.

i agree and as a fan, not being an Arm-chair dr, but as a fan who wants to have the best for him and his life.

i have change my stance when i watch that movie on the side affects of the CTE - concuss players who never thought of head injuries.

but as you said, the monkey is on the players back to decide.

 

[featherhawk]

If Crawford is healthy and can play, then he should play. That's his decision. Love all these armchair doctors saying he should retire. No one knows how he feels except him.

Obviously it’s his decision, I am no arm chair doctor but I have had my share of concussions and from my experience with them it is my opinion that the best thing for crow and his family is for him to retire.

Just my opinion, you don’t have to like it

 

[ClydeLee]

Yeah, let the doctors do their thing. Should Crosby or Toews have retired years ago? Apparently, by some of the posters on here. If the doctors say he can play, he gets to make that call.

The problem is these tests and doctor evaluations do not at all seem go be strong enough. And a lot of criticism goes that the short concussion protocol hasnt changed in the past decade.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Obviously it’s his decision, I am no arm chair doctor but I have had my share of concussions and from my experience with them and IMO the best thing for crow and his family is for him to retire.

Just my opinion, you don’t have to like it

But you are armchair doctoring. So is everyone else who thinks he should retire. Every person responds to concussions, post-concussion symptoms, and recovery, differently. Your situation can be nothing like his, your future could end up nothing like his. So to say he should retire... is well, being an armchair doctor. IMO. We should leave it to the actual doctors that are evaluating him.

How many has he had that we're aware of? Two? Three? Pretty sure Toews had 2-3 before he ever got in the NHL, and has had 2-3 since entering... should he retire?

 

[LDF]

but the final decision is his to make..... pretty much as Seabs situation is his to decide, regardless of what we the fans opinions are.

you are just being snarky just to be snarky.

 

[ClydeLee]

But you are armchair doctoring. So is everyone else who thinks he should retire. Every person responds to concussions, post-concussion symptoms, and recovery, differently. Your situation can be nothing like his, your future could end up nothing like his. So to say he should retire... is well, being an armchair doctor. IMO. We should leave it to the actual doctors that are evaluating him.

How many has he had that we're aware of? Two? Three? Pretty sure Toews had 2-3 before he ever got in the NHL, and has had 2-3 since entering... should he retire?

Why are you trusting the doctors that clearly have failed numerous people the last decade?

If there was overwhelming clear strengths in the system and manner taken by them, sure. That's not there yet. Theres not some leaps and trust in greater understanding anyone should have.

 

[LDF]

The problem is these tests and doctor evaluations do not at all seem go be strong enough. And a lot of criticism goes that the short concussion protocol hasnt changed in the past decade.

exactly .... just for me, it was just an opinion .... as a fan i do want the players to give it there all while they can still be a regular person afterward.

NHL reaches settlement in concussion lawsuit

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Why are you trusting the doctors that clearly have failed numerous people the last decade?

If there was overwhelming clear strengths in the system and manner taken by them, sure. That's not there yet. Theres not some leaps and trust in greater understanding anyone should have.

Who is this reffering to?

 

[ChiHawks10]

Why are you trusting the doctors that clearly have failed numerous people the last decade?

If there was overwhelming clear strengths in the system and manner taken by them, sure. That's not there yet. Theres not some leaps and trust in greater understanding anyone should have.

Because doctors are far more qualified than random people on a hockey message board?
Who have they failed over the last decade, though? Out of curiosity. I'd like to see who you think the doctors have failed. Bickell? Who has an almost impossible to diagnose/detect condition, until things are so bad that nothing else can be the cause other than MS?

 

[ClydeLee]

Because doctors are far more qualified than random people on a hockey message board?
Who have they failed over the last decade, though? Out of curiosity. I'd like to see who you think the doctors have failed. Bickell? Who has an almost impossible to diagnose/detect condition, until things are so bad that nothing else can be the cause other than MS?

I dont get the confusion of who I clearly meant. Ms is a crazy last resort thing to finally diagnose.

The Montador, Boogaard, Rypeen, and struggling guys line Carcillo, and the list of guys getting their settlement with the league.

And yeah to a small small Bolland and Toews. Guys who were pushed back to play again with head injuries because of the playoffs. And later I know it was said but Toews he maybe shouldnt of come back then.

 

[Pez68]

Actually, doctors have very little to do with concussion treatment. The onus for concussion recovery is pretty much 100% on the patient. They have to be truthful to themselves, and their doctor, about how they feel. THAT is why "concussion treatment" has failed so many people. Because most athletes are too proud to admit they shouldn't be playing...

 

[ChiHawks10]

I dont get the confusion of who I clearly meant. Ms is a crazy last resort thing to finally diagnose.

The Montador, Boogaard, Rypeen, and struggling guys line Carcillo, and the list of guys getting their settlement with the league.

And yeah to a small small Bolland and Toews. Guys who were pushed back to play again with head injuries because of the playoffs. And later I know it was said but Toews he maybe shouldnt of come back then.

There is confusion who you "clearly meant" because I don't agree with those who you "clearly meant", and don't believe the NHL "failed" these players. How can you say the NHL doctors failed them when they were all out of the league by the time things escalated? I mean... I get what you're saying, to an extent. More support for the players post-retirement...and I agree with that, but there is nothing that prevents them from seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist/doctors outside the NHL once they retire. They're back in the regular world at that point, and no different than you or I. Find a doctor. Go see them. Pretty simple. If they want help, they need to go get help. So basically what you're seemingly doing... is taking Carcillo's narrative as gospel?

I get what you mean. That the NHL doctors failed them when they were playing... but I don't agree with that. These players chose to go back out on the ice. No one forced them. They wanted to continue playing hockey... So to say the doctors failed them is disingenuous. If they weren't ready to play, they should know how they feel, and not play. Doctors can only take what the players say, and then make an educated decision based on that. If a player passes protocol, and says they're ok, then they will be cleared to play... Do you honestly believe that these guys were forced back into the lineup, despite what doctors found wrong with them?

And who was pushed back to play with head injuries because of the playoffs? You're just making things up/speculating about things at this point.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Actually, doctors have very little to do with concussion treatment. The onus for concussion recovery is pretty much 100% on the patient. They have to be truthful to themselves, and their doctor, about how they feel. THAT is why "concussion treatment" has failed so many people. Because most athletes are too proud to admit they shouldn't be playing...

Bingo.

 

[ClydeLee]

There is confusion who you "clearly meant" because I don't agree with those who you "clearly meant", and don't believe the NHL "failed" these players. How can you say the NHL doctors failed them when they were all out of the league by the time things escalated? I mean... I get what you're saying, to an extent. More support for the players post-retirement...and I agree with that, but there is nothing that prevents them from seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist/doctors outside the NHL once they retire. They're back in the regular world at that point, and no different than you or I. Find a doctor. Go see them. Pretty simple. If they want help, they need to go get help.

I get what you mean. That the NHL doctors failed them when they were playing... but I don't agree with that. These players chose to go back out on the ice. No one forced them. They wanted to continue playing hockey... So to say the doctors failed them is disingenuous. If they weren't ready to play, they should know how they feel, and not play. Doctors can only take what the players say, and then make an educated decision based on that. If a player passes protocol, and says they're ok, then they will be cleared to play... Do you honestly believe that these guys were forced back into the lineup, despite what doctors found wrong with them?

And who was pushed back to play with head injuries because of the playoffs? You're just making things up/speculating about things at this point.

Then I have a total different standard of what the doctors should be doing. To be like the guy from a video going around yesterday of the LA Rams strength coach as he is responsible to hold the coach McVay back to the sideline. They need to be doing everything.

You say that's before but Montador was not at all. I remember watching him return which felt too soon from a head hit, take a not big hit in the corner and was down again. But he kept getting cleared. And the standards and tests are still said to be not really different. So I'm not trusting the safety by doctor evaluations.

Toews was out in 2012 but came back for the playoffs. He himself said he maybe shoulnt of played. I dont know where to find a quote from that. But yes he choose to go but always pressure in that time. And of standards were stronger maybe he wouldn't of been able to return yet. They need standards and tests not so easy. Guys have said they know the test and can pass it still concussed.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Then I have a total different standard of what the doctors should be doing. To be like the guy from a video going around yesterday of the LA Rams strength coach as he is responsible to hold the coach McVay back to the sideline. They need to be doing everything.

You say that's before but Montador was not at all. I remember watching him return which felt too soon from a head hit, take a not big hit in the corner and was down again. But he kept getting cleared. And the standards and tests are still said to be not really different. So I'm not trusting the safety by doctor evaluations.

Toews was out in 2012 but came back for the playoffs. He himself said he maybe shoulnt of played. I dont know where to find a quote from that. But yes he choose to go but always pressure in that time. And of standards were stronger maybe he wouldn't of been able to return yet. They need standards and tests not so easy. Guys have said they know the test and can pass it still concussed.

Do you know the standards to say they need to be stronger? And again... guys get cleared because they're showing no medical symptoms, pass the protocol, and say they feel good enough to play. Do you know the testing these guys go through to get cleared? You're aware that the protocols require them to work out, test for symptoms. Skate. Test for symptoms. Take physical contact. Test for symptoms. So on and so forth. If they show no outward symptoms to a doctor, pass the doctor's tests/protocols, and they tell the doctor "I feel good enough to play." there's nothing a doctor can really do to keep them from playing. Why aren't you getting this?

The onus is on the player to tell the doctor how he feels. There's nothing a doctor can do for a concussion except take the player's word for it, and test them using their standards for clearing them with sensitivity to light/motion/contact/whatever else they test. There's no miracle drug to speed up recovery. Every player's recovery is different. A concussion of the same grade may keep one player out a month, and another out 6 months. Just look at Crosby as an example of this.

As for Toews "maybe I shouldn't have played" is far different than "being forced to play". And that decision was ultimately up to Toews... no one else. If he clears the testing/protocols, then it's his decision to get back on the ice. Not anyone else's. Pressure or not. No one is saying "You better get back out on the ice. I don't care how you feel."

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

I don't think the issue is doctors not looking out for the players (at least currently, less so in the past) but more that it's next to impossible to know how players will react to a concussion. One really bad concussion could end a guys career regardless of weather he's had one before or not. The only way to ensure not getting one is to not play. Kane could get Scott Stevensed tomorrow and that could be it. Meanwhile other guys can have several and have no lasting effects. The doctors have to give the players all the information and the player ultimately has to decide, assuming the doctors have signed off. But ultimately, until there's some sort of scan that definitively can show the extent of the damage sustained, there's always going to be uncertainty.

 

[ClydeLee]

Do you know the standards to say they need to be stronger? And again... guys get cleared because they're showing no medical symptoms, pass the protocol, and say they feel good enough to play. Do you know the testing these guys go through to get cleared? You're aware that the protocols require them to work out, test for symptoms. Skate. Test for symptoms. Take physical contact. Test for symptoms. So on and so forth. If they show no outward symptoms to a doctor, pass the doctor's tests/protocols, and they tell the doctor "I feel good enough to play." there's nothing a doctor can really do to keep them from playing. Why aren't you getting this?

The onus is on the player to tell the doctor how he feels. There's nothing a doctor can do for a concussion except take the player's word for it, and test them using their standards for clearing them with sensitivity to light/motion/whatever else they test. There's no miracle drug to speed up recovery. Every player's recovery is different. A concussion of the same grade may keep one player out a month, and another out 6 months. Just look at Crosby as an example of this.

As for Toews "maybe I shouldn't have played" is far different than "being forced to play". And that decision was ultimately up to Toews... no one else. If he clears the testing/protocols, then it's his decision to get back on the ice. Not anyone else's. Pressure or not. No one is saying "You better get back out on the ice. I don't care how you feel."

This is too easy on the league and doctors if you believe this is how it is run.

I cant find a quote of Toews saying he thinks he played too soon but here is a telling article from a week before the playoffs in 2012 that should put belief in how that system works to question.

Concussion symptoms still lingering for Toews

Toews said he has passed NHL concussion protocols but indicated he is not completely symptom-free.

"There are still signs of a concussion lingering," Toews said Wednesday. "When that's completely gone, then I'll be comfortable playing.

Then 8 days later he plays as its game 1 of the playoffs. I'm pretty sure he said some other time he thinks he came back too soon, but without that theres so much failure by the protocol and evaluation that era.

He said he still had concussion symptoms... yet hes practicing with contact and past the concussion test. If he feels it still, why are they pushing him up into contact and skating instead of going back until he doesn't? Then why arent these standards to pass so much stronger and higher. That's what I mean by failure of the doctors. And why whether Crawford passes their tests and wants to play doesnt mean really as much as some want to think.

 

[LDF]

Actually, doctors have very little to do with concussion treatment. The onus for concussion recovery is pretty much 100% on the patient. They have to be truthful to themselves, and their doctor, about how they feel. THAT is why "concussion treatment" has failed so many people. Because most athletes are too proud to admit they shouldn't be playing...

i was on another board when i saw this happen. Seabs had a concussion and he came back. someone i can't remember if it was on TV or the thread was wondering if he came back too soon. during the game he took a hard check. we saw Seabs skating as he was confuse..... thing is, Seabs check did not put him on the ice or anything.

i still think till this day, he came back too soon.

 

[ChiHawks10]

This is too easy on the league and doctors if you believe this is how it is run.

I cant find a quote of Toews saying he thinks he played too soon but here is a telling article from a week before the playoffs in 2012 that should put belief in how that system works to question.

Concussion symptoms still lingering for Toews

Toews said he has passed NHL concussion protocols but indicated he is not completely symptom-free.

"There are still signs of a concussion lingering," Toews said Wednesday. "When that's completely gone, then I'll be comfortable playing.

Then 8 days later he plays as its game 1 of the playoffs. I'm pretty sure he said some other time he thinks he came back too soon, but without that theres so much failure by the protocol and evaluation that era.

He said he still had concussion symptoms... yet hes practicing with contact and past the concussion test. If he feels it still, why are they pushing him up into contact and skating instead of going back until he doesn't? Then why arent these standards to pass so much stronger and higher. That's what I mean by failure of the doctors. And why whether Crawford passes their tests and wants to play doesnt mean really as much as some want to think.

But that is how it's run, and there's nothing anywhere that says it isn't...

And ok, he said "There are still signs of a concussion lingering, when that's completely gone, then I'll be comfortable playing." Who are you or anyone else to say that the signs weren't gone 8 days later, and he felt comfortable playing?? That's the assumption that would be made from that. Not that there's some grand conspiracy and pressure on him/someone forcing him to play when he's not ready...

You're completely speculating, and then trying to pass that off as gospel/truth. When it's not. It's simply speculation/guessing on your part. And you're making it up to fit your narrative that doctors and teams aren't doing enough. How about this... the players aren't doing enough?

And there are different grades and different symptoms. Some clear you for skating, some clear you for contact... etc. Look no further than Crow earlier this year. First reports came out that he was out on the ice practicing by himself, and just skating. Then a few days or a week later, he's out on the ice with the team, but not taking shots. Then a week later he's taking shots, but nothing high. (Just like this latest video of him). Then he's a deemed a "full participant" with no restrictions, and he starts practicing normally, and gets into game action.

As the symptoms subside, the activity ramps up, until they're cleared. Starts with a bike, and light workout. If symptoms persist after that, and/or return, then they stop, wait a few days or week, and then try again. If there are no symptoms, they advance to the next stage of returning, something like no contact practice, and just skating. Again, activity ramps up as symptoms stop presenting themselves...

If they have a setback and other symptoms return, they go back to not skating, and just working out, or to no contact, etc... Everything we see about concussions tells us this is exactly how it works in the NHL, but you're just speculating that this isn't the way it goes, with nothing to back that up...

 

[BK]

There is no way the Hawks bring in a UFA for 3mil, give him a NMC, and then try to get out of it in every way possible because a young kid has performed better. It would look bad for any future UFAs that want to come here, hence...PR.

If it is amicable then there is no PR issues. It would not look bad at all as long as they treat him right. They would also be giving him an opportunity to go elsewhere and play. Again this would not be a PR issue.

 

[ChiHawks10]

If it is amicable then there is no PR issues. It would not look bad at all as long as they treat him right. They would also be giving him an opportunity to go elsewhere and play. Again this would not be a PR issue.

I think what they're saying is it could be. Depending on how it was handled/how it goes down. Unless I'm mistaken.

Yes, it could be, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will be.

 

[BK]

I think what they're saying is it could be. Depending on how it was handled/how it goes down. Unless I'm mistaken.

Yes, it could be, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will be.

But Hawk said there is "no way" which does not seem to imply could be.