Tom ServoMST3K
In search of a Steinbach Hero
And everyone put your hands together to welcome back to TomServo's hottest take of 2009.
It's been so long!
seriously I was a big believer in that solution since before I even joined this website.
Phoenix CXXXVI - Coyotes up for sale again
- Thread starter ranold26
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And everyone put your hands together to welcome back to TomServo's hottest take of 2009.
It's been so long!
seriously I was a big believer in that solution since before I even joined this website.
mouser
Business of Hockey
So the best “link” you could come up with for a “Just Announced” deal is a photo of a TV clip that clearly states “Potential Agreement” from a local sports guy?
P.S. overly using ellipses is never a good thing when constructing a post.
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TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
He gleaned that off the local Fox affiliate broadcast. Their website layout sucks because you have to wade through the news section to get to any sports articles.
EDIT: link to article posted about a half hour ago.
Sources: Tentative deal reached on Talking Stick Resort Arena renovations
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Assuming Gila River Arena were to be demolished if the coyotes were able to manage to build a new arena on tribal lands, is the phoenix metro area big enough to support 3 brand new/renovated arenas -one in tempe, one in phoenix and this one? The coyotes might get close to 100 percent of the revenue streams in this rumored arena but I do not see that mattering if those revenue streams wind up really being just a few rain drops. I wonder if the reason an ASU/coyotes partnership fell through was becuase the coyotes did not have a well financed ownership group, but that if somehow the coyotes ownership was well capitlaized, ASU maybe would reconsider?
Maybe i am wrong and phoenix can support 2 professional arenas like is happening in minneapolis/st. paul?
Maybe i am wrong and phoenix can support 2 professional arenas like is happening in minneapolis/st. paul?
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
Article cautions against anything happening soon.
A key item is the Suns are going to contribute half the costs. But you’ve got a leading mayoral candidate who’s against the city spending anything on arenas. There’s a lot more process to cover. And if they have to put it to a public vote all bets are off.
Tom ServoMST3K
In search of a Steinbach Hero
I don't want to throw stones, but I kinda have to.
This is just painful to read. How do you use "however" not just once in an article, but twice in four paragraphs. I think it's actually just a transcript of the story from the broadcast.
Here's my crack at a re-write for better reading. I did this for you, BoH board!
The Phoenix Suns are one step closer to securing their future in the city.
FOX 10 Phoenix has learned the city and team met behind closed doors on Wednesday. In that meeting, the two sides agreed to split costs for renovations to the aging Talking Stick Arena.
The Suns lease at Talking Stick allows them to opt out if the arena isn't up to NBA standards.
Fans haven't just been debating what the struggling franchise needs on the court, but also what it needs off the court.
"I don't think they need to upgrade at all," said Suns fan Terrance Wilson.
Suns season ticket holder Clyde Williams wants to see proof of the franchise's health before any public investments are made.
"Need a winner first, and the owners making billions of dollars," he said.
The City of Phoenix will elect a new mayor via a runoff election in March 2019, with the two candidates split on the arena issue.
Mayoral candidate Kate Gallego said she thinks these talks are being rushed to completion before the runoff.
"I do think there are many people who know putting hundreds of millions into sports arenas is not a top priority for me, and with our significant margin of victory in Tuesday's election, they may want to get a deal done right away," said Gallego.
Gallego's runoff opponent, Daniel Valenzuela, said he at least wants to hear proposals.
"We have a city-owned facility that is one of the anchors of Downtown Phoenix that touches thousands of jobs," said Valenzuela.
The deal is still a long way away from completion. Agenda items, public comment, and a council vote still need to take place. There is no timetable set for any of those things.
Llama19
Registered User
Totally agree about their web site...and you beat me in posting that link to the aforementioned screenshot from the broadcast...
powerstuck
Nordiques Hopes Lies
Well, my understanding is...people will say the area is TOO BIG for 3 arenas.
There will always be a part of the fan base to complain that the arena is on the ''other side of the valley'' and they can't make it to the games due to traffic/distance.
First, the reported reason that the ASU/Coyotes plan fell through was that the funding mechanism would have disqualified ASU for funding on other projects which was of greater value to them. (Although i forget the details.) Secondly, there is some suspicion that ASU was not as involved with the idea at LeBlanc made it seem (again, I said some supposition). Third, the proposal from the Yotes was not precise about which continuing funding when where. So, all in all, I'm not sure ASU really factors in here.
The question seems not to be concerning hockey games, but rather other special events, which tend to be single element occasions, and thus have a greater draw across distances. The situation here is highly debatable, and many posters on this site will have differing conclusions. My own feeling about it is that there are barely enough shows, musical acts and other features playing the Phoenix area to support 2 arenas (in other words, even with the Yotes present, and thus GRA being a name-brand place, I think the arena actually runs in the red on yearly basis), much less three.
And, therein lie all of the uncertainties. CoP (Phoenix) is wise to start moving on the Suns' desired remodel now. If the city council waits for a new mayor, it's likely that she pushes for no public funding. Sarver is unlikely to fund the whole thing himself. That means TSRA stagnates. In that environment, it makes LOTS of $$ sense for the tribes to work with the Yotes on an arena with funding from both parties.
However, the converse is also true. If CoP pushes and gets this matter with Sarver going soon, then the tribes have less incentive to work with the Coyotes.
That's just the arena management part.
The Coyotes' part is as Feckless posted on another forum. The real reason that the Yotes say that Glendale doesn't work for them isn't location on the map. It is, as a physicist would say, it's location in subsidy space. In other words, as soon as an AMF subsidy disappeared from GRA, NHL said that Glendale is the wrong location. That is historical fact. The extrapolation would be that the Yotes are going to want some sort of continuing guaranteed non-hockey revenue from a new arena with the tribes as well. In other words, their losses are enough that even in a new location, hockey revenue won't keep them solvent, and even with arena income, it may not be enough.
This is the real mystery: We know that the Yotes losses are more than all arena ancillary revenue in Glendale can cover. That's why they wanted an AMF as well. This is true. The question then becomes: What kind of a deal are the really proposing with the tribes?
There is a thread on another forum about a supposed local ownership group trying to put together a deal to purchase the team. The rumor is that they are playing nice with the tribes. I have questions about that as well. ONE: It makes no sense to buy the team without a deal for a new arena, yet that is supposedly exactly where they are starting. TWO: What sort of relationship are they proposing with the tribes?
And, as I always do, let me state again that:
If the deal is privately financed, I don't care at all how it happens or if the team stays or relocates.
If the NHL and ownership expect a municipality to fund the arena and give all the money to the team, I am very opposed to that. That's Glendale 2.0, and that was really an imbalanced deal in which the NHL fleeced the city.
::::::Exception..... Should Phoenix itself, which has by far the largest population in the Valley, decide to work with the Suns, I could understand that, if the price is shared between entities and is reasonable. IOW: 200M for a remodel is far different than 500M for a completely new place. And, the city would be in for 100M. And, the city probably benefits a little from having a world class arena in its downtown.
- Oct 26, 2006
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Yeah, it became pretty clear to me around that time too that if the Mutts were going to move from Glendale, some sort of tribal-linked option was the only real solution. Although, to be fair, I did believe in the ASU deal for a little bit until LeBlanc torpedoed it.
Without ellipses... how... HOW... can you present the proper... dramatic emphasis... for your doomsaying...?
The short answer to this, IMO, is yes - provided that all three venues are purpose-built and have anchor tenants. ASU's arena qualifies - it will be small (too small for pro sports), and it will be multipurpose for a variety of ASU sports. TSRA qualifies - it is already purpose-built for basketball and has the Suns and Mercury, as well as arena football for as long as that lasts. It can also host events for which the obstructed seating is no factor.
So the unknown here is the Coyotes' theoretical new barn. A hockey arena will have better sightlines which should open it up for a better variety of 5,000+ spectator events than TSRA. They'll have the Coyotes as the anchor tenant for 40 games a year. And there is the possibility - theoretical at this stage, of course - that the arena will be part of some sort of Casino Arizona multiplex, which could provide ancillary events and foot traffic outside of game days and in the off-season.
The biggest conflict is that the NBA and NHL have the same seasonal timing, so TSRA and TBA Arena will have to fight for the same slate of events. I think, actually, that TBA Arena might have an edge. It will have close proximity not only to Sky Harbor but also to Williams-Gateway Airport, which is more convenient than a downtown location, and it will be closer to the toniest shopping/dining options in the Valley than TSRA is.
It goes without saying that Gila River Arena will be stone dead if TBA Arena gets built - and Westgate will be in serious trouble, to boot. NFL home games are nowhere near enough to keep that area vital, and the casino traffic stays pretty much in its own lane.
This is true. What remains to be seen is whether the franchise bothers to maintain its anemic, laughable outreach to the West Valley or if they'll simply continue their current practice of marketing nearly exclusively to the East Valley, with the rationale that it's cheaper to preach to the choir than it is to find new members for it.
That's it, from now on I'm reading those posts with the voice... of William Shatner...
Of note on this topic, the Coyotes give a very, VERY steep discount to fans who choose to buy full season tickets. My research numbers are based on personal memory having looked this up a few years ago as well as personal experience having has full season tickets to the Coyotes for two seasons (12-13 and 13-14). I sat in section 214 (upper bowl side, inside a zone; one section over to 215 closer to the red line would have been a price increase) at Gila River Arena. Single-game face value for a seat in 214 was $40 in 12-13 and $45 in 13-14. I paid $18 per game for both seasons (I got the $18/game price for 13-14 because I did an early bird renewal, otherwise it would have been hiked to $23/game). That's over a 50% discount off the single-game face value for buying full seasons for both seasons.
In contrast, while again I'm basing this off just personal memory of some searching around I did a few years ago, the full STH discount for most other teams is more like $40/game when the single-game price was $45.
I am in that very section now (214) and the full STH price for 18-19 is $26/gm ($27 for a 2-year commitment if you're new this year, which I wasn't). The face value of single tickets there does vary by game as they've gone to a 3 (I think) tier pricing structure, tonight's game vs Nashville that section is $39 plus fees, but for a higher tier it's...
...haha, seems the Winnipeg (Doan jersey retirement), Chicago, and Pittsburgh games have all sold out...so I can't tell you...let that sink in for a minute, haters
...Edmonton on 1/2/19 is $59
Glacial
Registered User
- Jan 8, 2013
- 1,704
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Just announced...the existing Talking Stick Resort Arena agreement...will not...again, will not...include a multi-purpose renovation (i.e., a reconfigured footprint for hockey)...
The Coyotes last resort is a brand, spanking, new arena built on tribal land...
Article links coming soon...
Update: Screenshot from local Fox10 News report by Jude LaCava....
The Last Resort? Which tribal land is that on and why didn't the Coyotes try that in the first place?
Dr Pepper
Registered User
The Last Resort? Which tribal land is that on and why didn't the Coyotes try that in the first place?
Sounds like a good name for a retirement home.
I'm not sure how to get this in here, but it does concern both Talking Stick Resort Arena and Gila River Arena.....
Pollstar Rankings for mid-year 2018 in concert tickets sold:
Worldwide Rankings....
1st half of 2018....
TSRA @ #33 with 201,000+ tickets sold
GRA - nowhere in the top 200, which ends near 25,000 tickets.
In 2017 at midyear, the numbers were:
TSRA: 184,000
GRA: 36,000
So, if GRA is near to the 20,000 mark, then the number of tickets sold in the market is holding steady, but TSRA is getting the most of them, and continuing to steal market share.
What this suggests to me is that the tribes who MIGHT be talking to the Coyotes probably aren't very concerned about GRA. The question is whether they can get enough business away from TSRA to make any money.
As for Glendale, it suggests there is very little happening there, and that losing the Coyotes would make the arena a ghost town. Which isn't surprising. But, what is surprising is that AEG isn't doing any better than that.
Pollstar Rankings for mid-year 2018 in concert tickets sold:
Worldwide Rankings....
1st half of 2018....
TSRA @ #33 with 201,000+ tickets sold
GRA - nowhere in the top 200, which ends near 25,000 tickets.
In 2017 at midyear, the numbers were:
TSRA: 184,000
GRA: 36,000
So, if GRA is near to the 20,000 mark, then the number of tickets sold in the market is holding steady, but TSRA is getting the most of them, and continuing to steal market share.
What this suggests to me is that the tribes who MIGHT be talking to the Coyotes probably aren't very concerned about GRA. The question is whether they can get enough business away from TSRA to make any money.
As for Glendale, it suggests there is very little happening there, and that losing the Coyotes would make the arena a ghost town. Which isn't surprising. But, what is surprising is that AEG isn't doing any better than that.
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
I’m skeptical of the GRA numbers.
Seems like there’s really been more concerts there this year than in past years. I have GRA’s Twitter account followed and regularly see promos for upcoming events.
36k would roughly translate into 4-5 concerts (using 10k) as a capacity.
EDIT: Got home from work just now and decided to look up the concerts for the first six months.
1/5 - Pepe Aguilar (Hispanic)
1/19 - Katy Perry
1/27 - Brad Paisley
2/2 - TOBYMAC
3/16 - Lorde
5/11 - Stars On Ice
5/31 - Sugarland
In June there were zero events in the arena..... yup..... ZERO.
There were three other non-concert events during the first half, but I don't think Pollstar includes them.
Second half calendar looks like this.
7/15 - Smashing Pumpkins
8/17 - Panic! At The Disco
8/31 - Sam Smith
10/8 - Drake
11/7 - Russ
11/16 - Platinum Comedy Tour
12/15 - Childish Gambino
There are two or three non-concert events also.
Seems like there’s really been more concerts there this year than in past years. I have GRA’s Twitter account followed and regularly see promos for upcoming events.
36k would roughly translate into 4-5 concerts (using 10k) as a capacity.
EDIT: Got home from work just now and decided to look up the concerts for the first six months.
1/5 - Pepe Aguilar (Hispanic)
1/19 - Katy Perry
1/27 - Brad Paisley
2/2 - TOBYMAC
3/16 - Lorde
5/11 - Stars On Ice
5/31 - Sugarland
In June there were zero events in the arena..... yup..... ZERO.
There were three other non-concert events during the first half, but I don't think Pollstar includes them.
Second half calendar looks like this.
7/15 - Smashing Pumpkins
8/17 - Panic! At The Disco
8/31 - Sam Smith
10/8 - Drake
11/7 - Russ
11/16 - Platinum Comedy Tour
12/15 - Childish Gambino
There are two or three non-concert events also.
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Thanks Legend,
Reading Pollstar's site information.....the arenas themselves have to report the numbers to Pollstar, so I assume that GRA simply hasn't done so yet. They did report 50K + tickets in 2017 between the time the mid-year rankings came out and the end of the year rankings. So, it could be they aren't interested in reporting until nearer the end of the year.
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
I left out about a half dozen non-concert events. But yeah... when I hit the month of June and saw a big blank screen I was actually a bit surprised.
What we do know is once Seattle is in 2020 (tentative), that means one team is being bumped to the Central division and most likely the Coyotes. That's a bad division for them as they are too far away from their division rivals - much closer to teams in the Pacific. While relocating the coyotes to Houston probably doesn't do a whole lot on the HRR side and television markets, it does play a huge part in geography. Houston is a natural fit for the Central division and close rivalry with the Dallas Stars. TF does want a NHL team badly but not likely willing to pay the $650 expansion fee so buying and relocating the debt ridden Coyotes is his best and cheapest option if he wants it. I don't see the NHL expanding to 34 teams - but at the same time I doubt TF's name is in the mix but we'll see. I'm not buying any of the reports that relocation is not on the table. Who's going to buy a team that is carrying 50% debt and not have majority control - then add no new arena in the mix.
I generally find that the larger the city, the more likely the pro sports facility will be primarily or solely paid for by the private sector. Yet Phoenix, with a GMA of over 4.7 million which is 12th highest in the US, seems to have a propensity for publicly funding all or a major part of the pro sports facilities in their city and surrounding suburbs. Take a look...
Talking Stick Arena
Cost:$100 million
Public/Private: 50/50 share of financing
Renovation Cost: $67 million
Public/Private Share: Unknown
Gila River Arena
Cost: $180 Million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
University of Phoenix Stadium:
Cost: $455 million
Public/Private: 68/32
Chase Field
Cost $364 million
Public/Private: 70/30
Camelback Ranch
Cost: $200 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Sloan Park
Cost: $99 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Goodyear Ballpark
Cost: $108 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Maryvale Baseball Park
Cost: Unknown
Public/Private:Unknown
Renovations:$63 million
Public/Private: 35/65
HoHoKam Stadium
Cost: Unknown
Public/Private: Unknown
Renovations: $20 million
Public/Private: 88/12
Peoria Sports Complex
Cost: $32 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Renovations: $42 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Surprise Stadium
Cost: $48 million
Public/Private: Either 100% public financing or 76/24
Renovations: $22 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Salt River Fields at Talking Stick
Cost: $226 million
Public/Private: 100% Private financing
Scottsdale Stadium
Cost: $8.4 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Renovations: $23.1 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Tempe Diablo Stadium
Cost $600,000
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Renovations: $20 million
Private/Public: 100% public financing
My question is why is so much public money allocated to all these pro sports facilities? Generally, I find the larger the city, the smaller the public subsidies given the concentration of corporate wealth. It should be easier to make a go of it with less public involvement.
This is not the case in Phoenix. I don't think there is a city in North America that has as high a percentage of total costs originating from the public than the city and its outlying suburbs. Does Phoenix push below its weight when it comes to corporate heft? If so, it must be substantially below.
Given past trends, I'm sure the owner of the Phoenix Suns will be receiving the majority of financing from the public for his new arena.
Talking Stick Arena
Cost:$100 million
Public/Private: 50/50 share of financing
Renovation Cost: $67 million
Public/Private Share: Unknown
Gila River Arena
Cost: $180 Million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
University of Phoenix Stadium:
Cost: $455 million
Public/Private: 68/32
Chase Field
Cost $364 million
Public/Private: 70/30
Camelback Ranch
Cost: $200 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Sloan Park
Cost: $99 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Goodyear Ballpark
Cost: $108 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Maryvale Baseball Park
Cost: Unknown
Public/Private:Unknown
Renovations:$63 million
Public/Private: 35/65
HoHoKam Stadium
Cost: Unknown
Public/Private: Unknown
Renovations: $20 million
Public/Private: 88/12
Peoria Sports Complex
Cost: $32 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Renovations: $42 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Surprise Stadium
Cost: $48 million
Public/Private: Either 100% public financing or 76/24
Renovations: $22 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Salt River Fields at Talking Stick
Cost: $226 million
Public/Private: 100% Private financing
Scottsdale Stadium
Cost: $8.4 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Renovations: $23.1 million
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Tempe Diablo Stadium
Cost $600,000
Public/Private: 100% public financing
Renovations: $20 million
Private/Public: 100% public financing
My question is why is so much public money allocated to all these pro sports facilities? Generally, I find the larger the city, the smaller the public subsidies given the concentration of corporate wealth. It should be easier to make a go of it with less public involvement.
This is not the case in Phoenix. I don't think there is a city in North America that has as high a percentage of total costs originating from the public than the city and its outlying suburbs. Does Phoenix push below its weight when it comes to corporate heft? If so, it must be substantially below.
Given past trends, I'm sure the owner of the Phoenix Suns will be receiving the majority of financing from the public for his new arena.
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
While your list project is amicable..... it's a bit too generic and doesn't define just what is generating all that "public funding".
Example..... Much of the "public funding" (for State Farm Stadium and the spring training facilities) comes from hotel and rental car taxes (which the latter is still being contested in the courts). These are generated by out of state visitors to the state. So AZ residents are not paying all of that.
With Arizona being a major tourism destination it opens up that funding mechanism.
Example..... Much of the "public funding" (for State Farm Stadium and the spring training facilities) comes from hotel and rental car taxes (which the latter is still being contested in the courts). These are generated by out of state visitors to the state. So AZ residents are not paying all of that.
With Arizona being a major tourism destination it opens up that funding mechanism.
That's how our baseball stadium and football/soccer stadium were funded. And yet there are still some people that still complain how the baseball stadium was forced down our throats when they never actually paid for it at all. It was all with that hotel and rental tax that visitors paid for.
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