BigMac1212
I feel...alone.
If Winnipeg was such a great market, do you honestly think that they would lose their franchise?
If Winnipeg was such a great market, do you honestly think that they would lose their franchise?
BigMac1212
I feel...alone.
Wondercarrot
By The Power of Canadian Tire Centre
- Jul 2, 2002
- 8,149
- 3,993
So this has gone from 'that reporter is a liar and incompentent' and 'whiny elitist Canadian vultures' along with the implied 'none of you have any idea what you are talking about' to 'oh yeah well Winnipeg's a crappy market too...'
so i wonder who knows more about what's going on with the Coyotes?
The 3 different reporters and the CEO of the organization or the yokels who inhabit this message board?
support your franchise to your hearts content, i know i would (and have) but get your head out of the sand and see the reality around you.
so i wonder who knows more about what's going on with the Coyotes?
The 3 different reporters and the CEO of the organization or the yokels who inhabit this message board?
support your franchise to your hearts content, i know i would (and have) but get your head out of the sand and see the reality around you.
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
Yes, given the circumstances. The Canadian low dollar. Run-away player costs. Owners that were not willing to lose millions of dollars let alone 30 million per year. Lack of Corporate Welfare programs for billioniare sports franchise owners in Canada (no 180 million donation for an arena like Glendale gave the Coyotes; we prefer to use tax dollars for things like hospitals, roads and schools). But guess what...
- the Canadian dollar has improved...
- the new CBA limits how much big markets can spend and allows smaller markets to hold on to their players...
- an ownership group with the means to support a team seems to have formed
- a new arena was built mainly with private funds...
times change...you could say the same thing regarding the Wild or AVS. those cities both lost their teams and are now wildly successful franchises...
meanwhile the Coyotes are coming to Winnipeg for another exhibition game, where I will bet you dollars to donuts they'll get their best gate $$ of the season.
Good luck with the Coyotes. I think you'll need to get rid of Gretzky and his tribe before you'll see any improvement. For heaven sakes, isn't Gretzky's younger brother the head of scouting?
GHOST
Ok if they have a $30 million dollar loss maybe they should make their privately held records a matter of public record and submit all their records for independent scrutiny from outside lawyers and accountants.
Otherwise what is the point of taking these claims at face value? Why don't they submit all their records to the Wall Street Journal and Forbes Magazine for scrutiny? I am certain they would be happy to look at Phoenix Coyotes books.
One has to wonder if this is the same story they are telling to their banker and NHL League offices.If the Coyotes are losing that money maybe a move to a better place is in order.
Otherwise what is the point of taking these claims at face value? Why don't they submit all their records to the Wall Street Journal and Forbes Magazine for scrutiny? I am certain they would be happy to look at Phoenix Coyotes books.
One has to wonder if this is the same story they are telling to their banker and NHL League offices.If the Coyotes are losing that money maybe a move to a better place is in order.
Wondercarrot
By The Power of Canadian Tire Centre
- Jul 2, 2002
- 8,149
- 3,993
perhaps, but then again then again they won't be having their books audited by 4th graders.
that number is so large that they would know it would attract the kind of attention that comes with it.
just saying 30 million doesnt entitle them to revenue sharing. people are going to want in depth records.
they may be overstating things, but by how much? 5? 10 million? any more than that and you would have to figure that that would eliminate any credibility they may have left.
as far as attendence and payroll and the similarity to the Panthers, well, i would say that only those that have access to the books (for both fanchises) have any idea how many of those tickets, suites etc are actually being paid for and what the ones that are being paid for are actually being sold for.
the variance could be enormous.
that number is so large that they would know it would attract the kind of attention that comes with it.
just saying 30 million doesnt entitle them to revenue sharing. people are going to want in depth records.
they may be overstating things, but by how much? 5? 10 million? any more than that and you would have to figure that that would eliminate any credibility they may have left.
as far as attendence and payroll and the similarity to the Panthers, well, i would say that only those that have access to the books (for both fanchises) have any idea how many of those tickets, suites etc are actually being paid for and what the ones that are being paid for are actually being sold for.
the variance could be enormous.
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
Florida is breaking even? Do you have a source for that?
As far as I'm aware, revenue sharing has nothing to do with a franchise's bottom line (profit or loss statement) so for the coyotes' to claim a loss of 30 million is no consequence in that regard. If I recall correctly, only the bottom 15 teams in the league in revenue generated are eligible to be considered for revenue sharing and then other factors are considered (TV market size, improvement or lack thereof in attendance/revenue year on year, etc.).
So why did the Coyotes make their loses public? Your guess is as good as mine. I don't see the benefit of that other than to let their fans know that their continued support is needed or to explain to their fans why they may be limiting their player costs in the future, if indeed that is the case.
GHOST
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The Arena was at 97% capacity last night for a meaningless game against a crap team. Weekends are great, weekdays usually average 3,000 or so less. You can't tell me that so many of those people got free tickets that the Coyotes aren't bringing in significant revenue. Cause If they are giving tickets away like bandits a.) I haven't seen it b.) I want in!
Do you have a source that says Phoenix is not a worthy market? No? Just annecdotal evidence based off shoddy journalism referencing the fact that the Coyotes lost money? Really? I didn't know that.
Yeah, because its not like revenue generated and profit margin (or loss) are related.
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
The Arena was at 97% capacity last night for a meaningless game against a crap team. Weekends are great, weekdays usually average 3,000 or so less. You can't tell me that so many of those people got free tickets that the Coyotes aren't bringing in significant revenue. Cause If they are giving tickets away like bandits a.) I haven't seen it b.) I want in!
That's good to see. I know if I was a fan, I'd be pissed at the organization's incompetence. Gretzky and co. may be good for marketing but so far they have shown themselves as totally inept at running the hockey side of things.
Where did I say that Phoenix is not a worthy market? Or that a team that loses millions each year is not playing in a worthy market? That's up to the owners to access not me.
First of all, the NHL now has a formula for all of the teams whereby they report their revenues to the NHL/NHLPA to be audited by an independent accounting firm. Therefore, there is no reason for making any financial information available to the public in the form of comments to the press in order for the team to receive revenue sharing. So your whole point about why the Coyotes are mentioning the 30 million lose figure doesn't make sense. Secondly, of course revenues are related to profits or losses but you also have to take into account expenses. The point stands, though, revenue sharing has nothing to do with profits or loss statements and only to do with where a team stands in relation to other teams in terms of revenue generated, in addition to other factors mentioned above. Take a look at the CBA thread, if you are truly interested.
GHOST
My point is that a team that is losing money will not, by design, be in the upper echelon of revenue earners. In a cap world with relatively fixed expenses all around you'd have to be burning piles of money to post a loss in some markets.
Let me put it this way. If the Coyotes are losing 30 million this season, supposedly. In a rather mediocre market. They would have to be bottom 5 in terms of revenue generated or else someone is embezzling, or some other teams are in serious trouble.
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
Xavier, it's not my point to come on here and slam other people's franchises or cities. I've played hockey since a kid and am a hockey fan. If the game is popular and if it makes new fans or provides entertaiment for old ones that relocated to a so-called "non-traditional" market, I'm happy.
Having said that, this is the business of hockey forum. So, I'll ask you this. Are you aware of reports in the news stretching back to the intial owners of this franchise, that taken together indicate that the franchise has been losing money on hockey operations for most of its existence in Phoenix? Why would the Coyotes lie to the press about their losses? That's the question I'd like an answer to. Do you really believe it's because someone is embezzling?
GHOST
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razorsedge
Registered User
- Oct 19, 2006
- 5,197
- 4,778
Pfft...i'll say it, Pheonix is not a worthy NHL market. But I'll admit $30 million doesn't sound right. I'm sure somebody will be fired in the Coyotes management if it turns out to be true.
The salary cap has nothing to do with teams making money. The "smaller" market teams that were hurting the most before the lockout, are still spending more now than they did before, on salary's. The salary cap just spreads the high priced talent throughout the NHL, more so than before.
Revenue sharing helps teams that lost money to break even. Which is great to spread the wealth along with talent. But how long do you think the money making teams are gonna want to keep paying out millions to the same teams over and over again? The CBA still needs to be tweaked some more before every current NHL teams make money. If not, I think the current CBA may actually force relocation more than anything IMO.
The salary cap has nothing to do with teams making money. The "smaller" market teams that were hurting the most before the lockout, are still spending more now than they did before, on salary's. The salary cap just spreads the high priced talent throughout the NHL, more so than before.
Revenue sharing helps teams that lost money to break even. Which is great to spread the wealth along with talent. But how long do you think the money making teams are gonna want to keep paying out millions to the same teams over and over again? The CBA still needs to be tweaked some more before every current NHL teams make money. If not, I think the current CBA may actually force relocation more than anything IMO.
BigMac1212
I feel...alone.
This is what's wrong with the NHL: fans saying cities are not worthy of the NHL. Oh, for this Coyotes fan, it's comments like these that make me sick!
PuckHeadDave
Registered User
I think the 6th largest city in the US is worthy. Hell, Mesa is in the top 50 US cities at 440,000 and it's just a suburb. 
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
Well, it's not just the Arizona Republic, the East Valley Tribune is reporting that a team source told them (directly) the exact same thing. So much for faulty reporting. It's apparent that this is the information that the Coyotes are releasing to the press -two separate newspapers, three separate articles, and four different journalists from the Phoenix area have reported this now.
"Coyotes will lose around $30M this year
MATT PAULSON, TRIBUNE
The Coyotes have been a losing franchise on the ice the past four seasons, including this one. All those defeats have led to extensive losses on the financial side as well.
A team source told the Tribune that the hockey club is projected to lose in the ballpark of $30 million this season — a figure that while significant was not unexpected."
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/85555
Don't count on anyone getting fired; such losses are not unusual for the Coyotes. Try a google search. It doesn't take long. Here are some examples I found and this is just for the recent Ellman/Moyes ownership (Ellman bailed last year but Moyes is still around). Note the dates on the articles.
"The Coyotes Howl for a New Home
Hockey Digest, Summer, 2001 by David Stone
Now that Ellman and Gretzky are officially in charge, their first priority will be to build a new arena for the Coyotes. Ellman says the franchise will lose approximately $20 million this season, primarily because of limited revenues from luxury suites and advertising, as well as thousands of obstructed-view seats at the basketball-friendly America West Arena."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCM/is_8_29/ai_74925321
This is refering to the season before the lockout:
"Coyotes see good and bad in canceled hockey season
The Business Journal of Phoenix - March 4, 2005
by Adam Kress
The Phoenix Coyotes are facing some strange realities in the wake of the National Hockey League canceling its entire 2004-05 season.
First off, the team will again fail to post a profit. That's nothing new. But in the backward economic system that rules the NHL, the Coyotes will lose only about half as much money as the $25 million it lost last season -- when it played hockey."
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2005/03/07/story8.html
Here's that 100 million figure again from a December 2003 article (keep in mind Ellman and Moyes only bought the team in 2001!):
"If all goes as planned, Ellman and co-owner Jerry Moyes will recoup the $100 million they have lost since buying the team...[in 2001]"
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...s"+financial+losses&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=72&gl=ca
Here's an interesting article about Moyes:
"The SEC action came after Moyes had dumped more than $240 million into the Coyotes, most of which was borrowed money. The team is in such dire financial straits that Moyes has had to repeatedly borrow money using his Swift stock as collateral to cover routine expenses such as payroll.
Moyes' heavy reliance on his Swift stock to prop up the Coyotes triggered a flurry of class-action, shareholder lawsuits in late 2004."
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2006-02-16/news/howling-financial-woes/full
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I don't understand how this is so ubelieveable when the team CEO (or whatever he was) comes right out and says it. What does he stand to gain by exagerating the Coyotes losses? They've gotta prove their losses before they can get any revenue sharing dollars. Gov't handouts perhaps?
I was thinking the same thing. Why would they disclose this information, unless it was leaked, and now they have to clean up? They can't fudge the NHL numbers since the entire CBA hinges on a certain level of openness between the league figures and the NHLPA.
Could it be a move to renegotiate their arena deal?
Well it does look like it was leaked by "team sources" earlier, so maybe they did have to be honest about it?
I thought they had a pretty sweet arena deal already, but maybe they do wanna renegotiate it.
kdb209
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2005
- 14,870
- 6
Those were my thought exactly - especially when a team trumpets about things financial to the press.
I am always sceptical about claims of money lost by a "team", especially when the team also controls it's arena (as do the 'Yotes) - money can be moved around between team affiliated entities to make a teams losses look bigger or smaller and non-hockey revenues the team gets from the Arena (by virtue of the team being there and their controlling the master lease) can get conveniently ignored.
A team can make all sorts of claims in public and in the press - but generally it is just posturing.
And before some uninformed posters jump in about revenue games and the CBA - the CBA is quite detailed in how it deals with revenues to team affiliated entities, how shared revenues are allocated to the team, and how the numbers are subject to independent audit.
They do. They get all hockey related revenue and the lease is basically as cheap as it can get.
thenextone
Registered User
Ok if they are losing that much money, let us see them post their audited IRS tax returns for independent review. Is this the same story they tell to creditors and bankers as well? Maybe it is all for public consumption with little independent verification.
Hollywood works on much the same financial principles.
Hollywood works on much the same financial principles.
