Confirmed with Link: Coyotes fire Steve Sullivan

[BUX7PHX]

If this was heavily related to Chayka, he would have been gone well before this.

I just take this as Armstrong had kept him on to see if he could work with the new group, and it didn't work enough to allow him to stick around. Whether that was in how Sullivan managed others, or how he engaged with others - could be a little of both or a lot of one. I would almost argue that this is a scenario where in a shortened season, and Sullivan as AGM meant he was GM of Tucson, it was simply a cost-cutting move and Armstrong or someone else would keep tabs on Tucson more heavily.

 

[lanky]

If this was heavily related to Chayka, he would have been gone well before this.

I just take this as Armstrong had kept him on to see if he could work with the new group, and it didn't work enough to allow him to stick around. Whether that was in how Sullivan managed others, or how he engaged with others - could be a little of both or a lot of one. I would almost argue that this is a scenario where in a shortened season, and Sullivan as AGM meant he was GM of Tucson, it was simply a cost-cutting move and Armstrong or someone else would keep tabs on Tucson more heavily.

Nope.
You can't rip up a contract for reasons like that.
They took a deep look at what happened last year and they found some dirt on Sullivan.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Nope.
You can't rip up a contract for reasons like that.
They took a deep look at what happened last year and they found some dirt on Sullivan.

Why wouldn't you be able to? If you have someone signed for four years and you think that someone else within the organization can already do some of the tasks that Sullivan did, then it is fair game, in my eyes. Seen it happen multiple times in the corporate world, and this seems no different.

Ultimately, if it is something negative that was done (associated to last year or the draft of Miller this year), this seems like a long time to drag someone along if you knew there was something more that had been done underneath the surface.

Think about it this way: within a week of drafting Miller, we reversed course and renounced his rights. One week. We have had Sullivan on since Chayka left, and somehow, we went this long without finding some dirt related to last year? Seems unlikely.

 

[Matias Maccete]

This f***ing team man.

 

[Jamieh]

Why wouldn't you be able to? If you have someone signed for four years and you think that someone else within the organization can already do some of the tasks that Sullivan did, then it is fair game, in my eyes. Seen it happen multiple times in the corporate world, and this seems no different.

Ultimately, if it is something negative that was done (associated to last year or the draft of Miller this year), this seems like a long time to drag someone along if you knew there was something more that had been done underneath the surface.

Think about it this way: within a week of drafting Miller, we reversed course and renounced his rights. One week. We have had Sullivan on since Chayka left, and somehow, we went this long without finding some dirt related to last year? Seems unlikely.

You have seen people dismissed while under contract without payment? Without reason?

 

[cobra427]

Exactly. That's why when Sullivan was terminated it was a little more serious than calling in sick. The Yotes needed a just cause, and I guess they got it to there way of thinking. Many on this board were hoping he would be our next GM.

None of us know how the contract was constructed or if the money was guaranteed for 4 years no matter what. It could have been constructed in many ways, we just don't know.

 

[Matias Maccete]

More than likely it's some semi scandalous stuff that is kind of f***ed up but questionable for firing someone with cause, so this will drag on in court for a decade. It's the coyotes way.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Yep, and in most cases, there is a reason. But there are moves to cut costs, especially if there is not added value. That was why I said, I think that he was allowed to stay on to see if things were capable of working with him. If there are fewer games in Tucson, and there is less work for him to do in the GM world for Tucson, does it make sense to keep him if someone else can take that responsibility on? As was said, the team doesn't intend to backfill this year, so while there is likely something that could have gone on, why drag someone on if the signs are there that they did something wrong in the first place?

 

[Jamieh]

Yep, and in most cases, there is a reason. But there are moves to cut costs, especially if there is not added value. That was why I said, I think that he was allowed to stay on to see if things were capable of working with him. If there are fewer games in Tucson, and there is less work for him to do in the GM world for Tucson, does it make sense to keep him if someone else can take that responsibility on? As was said, the team doesn't intend to backfill this year, so while there is likely something that could have gone on, why drag someone on if the signs are there that they did something wrong in the first place?

So there is always a reason. Imo the Coyotes either have a valid reason to dismiss or will be paying Sullivan. Having another option for his position is not a valid option for dismissal without payout.

 

[BUX7PHX]

So there is always a reason. Imo the Coyotes either have a valid reason to dismiss or will be paying Sullivan. Having another option for his position is not a valid option for dismissal without payout.

The reason does not have to be directly related to the person though. We are still in a pandemic. Armstrong brought some of his guys in, and likely at a cheaper price. If the same value is gotten out of the cheaper person, then sure.

I know that is an interesting line to draw because it can be assumed that the individual is not doing their job, relative to title or salary, but the truth is that you can find a justification to let someone go, no matter how small or how large.

 

[Jamieh]

The reason does not have to be directly related to the person though. We are still in a pandemic. Armstrong brought some of his guys in, and likely at a cheaper price. If the same value is gotten out of the cheaper person, then sure.

I know that is an interesting line to draw because it can be assumed that the individual is not doing their job, relative to title or salary, but the truth is that you can find a justification to let someone go, no matter how small or how large.

I highly doubt you will be dismissing an Executive under contract without payout without a very serious reason. Having a cheaper option would not pass the smell test for Uncle Gary. This is a very silly argument as everyone knows it does not work as you are suggesting.

 

[Sinurgy]

Yeah but Crosby was the face that brought the fans back.

Malkin would've done it too, I remember when Crosby missed most of the season in 2011-12 so Malkin decided to go ahead an put up 109 points. Crosby is generational no doubt but Malkin is a franchise 1C himself, it sucks for everyone but Pitt that both of them ended up on the same team.

 

[Heldig]

*Checks scoreboard.....*

Bankruptcies:

Pittsburgh. 2
Arizona. 1

Now imagine if Crosby hadn’t just dropped into their laps......

I made a similar comment to a Pens fan saying the league should fold the Coyotes. Something to the effect...OR have them win 1st overall and draft a franchise talent 1C thus turning around the fortunes of the franchise.

Penguins are the luckiest team in NHL history.

 

[_Del_]

More than likely it's some semi scandalous stuff that is kind of f***ed up but questionable for firing someone with cause, so this will drag on in court for a decade. It's the coyotes way.

Quintessential Coyote things if it plays out that way.

I sort of think they're out in front of something, though. Not terribly worried, but it's definitely interesting.

If it was simply "doesn't play well with new boss", that's when you get the "mutually agreed to go separate directions" or "we thank Steve for his service and wish him lick as he has elected to explore other opportunities" and a negotiated settlement. You don't see "we terminated his contract, and we're not going to have anything more to say about it" in that scenario.

 

[Canis Latrans]

It's probably never going to come out. The timing makes me think it's something based on the discovery phase of Meruelo and the team's legal case against Chayka, but assuredly we're never getting any details on that for obvious reasons. Right or wrong, if the lawyers found something they thought could justify terminating his contract they were going to use it to save money and let Armstrong fill the position later. Dragging it out isn't likely to be in Sullivan's interest; he'll want to find somewhere else as he was just languishing as a "scout" here dropping his value all the while. Once he secures something else there's maybe a legal case, but who knows. It's a small circuit, so maybe not worth pursuing at the expense of future employment.

Anyway, that's my best guess. No moral culpability potentially, but legally acceptable to have let him go, and we'll probably never know.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Malkin would've done it too, I remember when Crosby missed most of the season in 2011-12 so Malkin decided to go ahead an put up 109 points. Crosby is generational no doubt but Malkin is a franchise 1C himself, it sucks for everyone but Pitt that both of them ended up on the same team.

Off topic but fun fact: 5 players drafted in the 1st rd in 2004 played for the Coyotes, but NOT the guy we drafted. The Pens took Geno #2, and to think they passed on Cam Barker.

 

[Jakey53]

Why wouldn't you be able to? If you have someone signed for four years and you think that someone else within the organization can already do some of the tasks that Sullivan did, then it is fair game, in my eyes. Seen it happen multiple times in the corporate world, and this seems no different.

Ultimately, if it is something negative that was done (associated to last year or the draft of Miller this year), this seems like a long time to drag someone along if you knew there was something more that had been done underneath the surface.

Think about it this way: within a week of drafting Miller, we reversed course and renounced his rights. One week. We have had Sullivan on since Chayka left, and somehow, we went this long without finding some dirt related to last year? Seems unlikely.

Fire someone yes, terminate with just cause you would need more than what you mentioned.

 

[Jakey53]

None of us know how the contract was constructed or if the money was guaranteed for 4 years no matter what. It could have been constructed in many ways, we just don't know.

I understand, but Sullivan was terminated with just cause. He was terminated so Sullivan gets no more compensation.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Fire someone yes, terminate with just cause you would need more than what you mentioned.

Go read Feckless' response on first page. Terminated is simply a different word to use than fired.

Go read what was put in Morgan's tweet. Morgan tried to get interviews and was not allowed. Said that his role had been diminished to pro scout. If you are diminishing someone's role and paying the equivalent salary of an AGM for someone whose role is now pro scout (more or less), you had a plan to basically move along from the individual the entire time.

Maybe Sullivan went to Armstrong and others to take issue on his current role, and that was the way to "terminate" his deal - person complains to management about their role in office, even though office stripped him of duties. Maybe there is also language in the contract that allows for removal after a certain date with no penalty or legal recourse.

Remember, he was given the title of interim GM after Chayka left. Interim. As in, not permanent. We have a new GM not named Sullivan, so we are not beholden to owe him anything now that our management is in place.

 

[Jakey53]

Quintessential Coyote things if it plays out that way.

I sort of think they're out in front of something, though. Not terribly worried, but it's definitely interesting.

If it was simply "doesn't play well with new boss", that's when you get the "mutually agreed to go separate directions" or "we thank Steve for his service and wish him lick as he has elected to explore other opportunities" and a negotiated settlement. You don't see "we terminated his contract, and we're not going to have anything more to say about it" in that scenario.

I agree. I would think the Yotes kept Uncle Gary informed of all happenings and agreed with the termination. We have heard that Sullivan was well thought of and was maybe in the running for the GM job and then when BA was hired we heard Sullivan's responsibilities were lessened. I hope for Sullivan's sake he is not tied up with the Chayka BS, but if I was a betting man, I would say he is/was.

 

[cobra427]

I understand, but Sullivan was terminated with just cause. He was terminated so Sullivan gets no more compensation.

We don't know that, your speculating. Contracts can be written many ways.

 

[BUX7PHX]

I agree. I would think the Yotes kept Uncle Gary informed of all happenings and agreed with the termination. We have heard that Sullivan was well thought of and was maybe in the running for the GM job and then when BA was hired we heard Sullivan's responsibilities were lessened. I hope for Sullivan's sake he is not tied up with the Chayka BS, but if I was a betting man, I would say he is/was.

Wouldn't you want to get away from that as soon as possible, if there was even a remote inkling that he was involved in some sort of corrupt activity that cost draft picks?

Seems like an odd way to go about business.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

It's probably never going to come out. The timing makes me think it's something based on the discovery phase of Meruelo and the team's legal case against Chayka, but assuredly we're never getting any details on that for obvious reasons. Right or wrong, if the lawyers found something they thought could justify terminating his contract they were going to use it to save money and let Armstrong fill the position later. Dragging it out isn't likely to be in Sullivan's interest; he'll want to find somewhere else as he was just languishing as a "scout" here dropping his value all the while. Once he secures something else there's maybe a legal case, but who knows. It's a small circuit, so maybe not worth pursuing at the expense of future employment.

Anyway, that's my best guess. No moral culpability potentially, but legally acceptable to have let him go, and we'll probably never know.

Discovery phase? I didn’t know that the Coyotes had already filed a civil suit against Chayka.

 

[Mangosteen]

I bet he violated the Coyotes IT policy lol. Used as an excuse to fire a lot of different people

 

[Canis Latrans]

Discovery phase? I didn’t know that the Coyotes had already filed a civil suit against Chayka.

I don't either, but I know there were rumblings of Meruelo being unhappy enough and I think Craig Morgan intimated that he had no update on Chayka (this was a while back) because lawyers were getting involved so no chance he could get information. The recent report about the NHL banning Chayka until after this year, plus this news on Sullivan just made me think some progress in the legal realm likely had been made; I don't actually even know if there is a discovery phase for legal cases surrounding contract disagreements.