OT: Covid-19 (Part 44) Closer Together

[HBDay]

Yeah but the flu R-naught is like 5 to 8 times less than the one from the Delta.

That's super. I'm not talking about the R rate.

As a matter of fact bringing up covids R rate in debate about the flu being more deadly to children is supporting what I'm saying.. because if the flu had the same R rate as Covid, it would blow Covid clean out of the water in children's death.

Because Covid is more infectious that's not a debate at all. But even being more infectious by eight times as you said, it still hasn't even touched the baseboards of what the flu did in 2018 while being a less effective virus.

 

[OnTheRun]

I am not here to argue. I've done that.

But I will answer your last paragraph and also make a comment on your link.

The reason we are fine with risking it, is because that risk. Was always there. Always. And we value our children's life experience over that perceived risk. I can pull up studies until I'm blue citing both the immense impact all this had had on children, and citing the contrary of what your link is saying. Just as you could.

Which is why you choose your studies. And I choose mine. And I will never be able to convince you otherwise, and you will never be able to convince me otherwise.

But there is, the current numbers, which don't even have Covid CLOSE to the flu in child death, not even close. And we weren't up in arms then, but we are now, and it seems strange.

And just as you are frustrated that I can't seem to see what you're saying, I am just as frustrated that you ignoring hard facts. I know. You'll say delta.

I know, the variant, you don't know and I don't know , we don't know, government doesn't know, doctors don't know, and that's the end of it. We can do this until we are blue. The delta surge is already pretty well over in England, it's trending down, and they don't have any panic child death rate to tote about.

"I think that Covid-19 in children is still, in the vast majority of cases a very mild illness"

"One UK analysis, published in the medical journal the lanclet, in mid february, compared the effect of the B117 variant, first identified in that country - with the initial strain of Covid. The researchers found "no evidence of more severe desease I'm children"

"The variants of concern could be both more transmisible and more capable of causing serious illness. But that doesn't seem to be translating to more severe symptoms among Kids"

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6006172

You have your view. I have mine. We can do this until we are blue.

So you decided to make very long post not addressing anything, just to fallback on old irrelevant data obfuscated behind a single variable (deaths).

Super... The thing is no one is contesting any of that, everyone know kids had a smooth sailing when the wildtype/Alpha/Beta was the thing. Those lineages got supplanted by delta (Altho, Alpha is still the dominant strain in Canada, but losing ground) things change, more kids get sick now.

And, it's already acknowledged that most kids who catch (even the one who get severely ill) covid won't die. But for the 1000s time, death isn't the only issue, far from it.

So I don't know man, come back to me when you're not stuck in 2020 anymore?

 

[HBDay]

So you decided to make very long post not addressing anything, just to fallback on old irrelevant data obfuscated behind a single variable (deaths).

Super... The thing is no one is contesting any of that, everyone know kids had a smooth sailing when the wildtype/Alpha/Beta was the thing. Those lineages got supplanted by delta (Altho, Alpha is still the dominant strain in Canada, but losing ground) things change, more kids get sick now.

And, it's already acknowledged that most kids who catch (even the one who get severely ill) covid won't die. But for the 1000s time, death isn't the only issue, far from it.

So I don't know man, come back to me when you're not stuck in 2020 anymore?

Then we agree. I just didn't want misinformation regarding child death.

But any issue, is still super rare, I'll bring you five studies. Until we're blue man.

Actually read it. Don't just source out your points.

What to know about children's risk of infection as delta variant spreads

 

[waffledave]

I promised myself to leave this thread....damn

I have looked it up, trust me. Do your own searches for VAERS (just one of the US adverse reactions logging systems) and the uK's MHRA "yellow card" system. Usual testing phases for new jabs run for several years, so these datasets are a long way from being complete.

Once all the data is in, or if there's new data which conclusively proves a material risk of death for my kids' demographic, I'll think again.

I did check VAERS. There have been 342,000,000 doses of COVID vaccine administered in the USA. According to VAERS, there are 6340 reports of death following a vaccine (for any reason). That's 0.00001% of cases following a COVID vaccine.

Heart problems? There have been 1,194 reports of heart problems, and only 699 have actually been confirmed thus far. That's 0.000002%.

Anything else you are worried about? What other data are you waiting for? This is only the US, by the way. Globally, over 4 billion doses have been administered.

Are we also taking potential long-term effects of COVID into consideration? There are far more historical cases of viruses causing long-term issues than there are of vaccines causing long-term issues.

Look, you want to roll the dice with your kid, go for it. I sincerely have no idea why any parent would ever want to do this, though. Myself, I took the 0.00001% chance of dying from the vaccine to help reduce the chances of her getting sick.

 

[Milhouse40]

That's super. I'm not talking about the R rate.

As a matter of fact bringing up covids R rate in debate about the flu being more deadly to children is supporting what I'm saying.. because if the flu had the same R rate as Covid, it would blow Covid clean out of the water in children's death.

Because Covid is more infectious that's not a debate at all. But even being more infectious by eight times as you said, it still hasn't even touched the baseboards of what the flu did in 2018 while being a less effective virus.

Then stop talking about masks.....cause masks are used because of the R-naught.

 

[waffledave]

OK, so let's ignore "early reports" and wait for the data.

It would have to be 10 times more deadly (literally) to move the data dial from 0.005 to 0.05% mortality in a demographic group, for example. I don't doubt that it's more alarming than that for senior citizens with existing, severe, health problems.

Polio is asymptomatic, or has mild symptoms, for 99.5% of people. Of the 0.5% with severe symptoms, about 5% of children would die - 0.025% of all Polio infections for children. Was Polio not alarming?

 

[HBDay]

Then stop talking about masks.....cause masks are used because of the R-naught.

I was talking about masks in 2018.... Did you wear one in 2018...

 

[Milhouse40]

 

[Milhouse40]

I was talking about masks in 2018.... Did you wear one in 2018...

No we didn't wear mask in 2018 because the R-naught of the flu is a lot less problematic than the one from Delta.....that's my point actually.

 

[HBDay]

No we didn't wear mask in 2018 because the R-naught of the flu is a lot less problematic than the one from Delta.....that's my point actually.

Thank you for elaborating. I understand, and to that point, you are correct.

 

[HBDay]

Study suggests COVID-19 in children is milder than the flu



@OnTheRun

My point being the concern is incredible over Covid and kids its crazy when in the past the flu has been far more deadly to children, the dates are current. I don't even think with covids current crazy infection rate that it would have the same mortality rate or complication rate in under five yearolds. Without even adjusting the numbers.

My point is, there is alot of over reacting.

And an interesting thing along the way, is we almost eradicated the flu during Covid. It responded better than Covid to the distancing, lockdowns, masks etc.

Anyways .signing off, hopefully for good.

 

[OnTheRun]

Then we agree. I just didn't want misinformation regarding child death.

But any issue, is still super rare, I'll bring you five studies. Until we're blue man.

Actually read it. Don't just source out your points.

What to know about children's risk of infection as delta variant spreads

Study suggests COVID-19 in children is milder than the flu



@OnTheRun

My point being the concern is incredible over Covid and kids its crazy when in the past the flu has been far more deadly to children, the dates are current. I don't even think with covids current crazy infection rate that it would have the same mortality rate or complication rate in under five yearolds. Without even adjusting the numbers.

My point is, there is alot of over reacting.

And an interesting thing along the way, is we almost eradicated the flu during Covid. It responded better than Covid to the distancing, lockdowns, masks etc.

Anyways .signing off, hopefully for good.

First article is pretty going in the same direction as the article about Louisiana I linked earlier.
The 2nd is unsurprisingly based on old data once again, March and November 2020.

Since you have that thing with out of date stuff, let me use some to illustrate something...

In the last 550 days (Feb2020-today), a grand total of 30 children between 0-9 were admitted in Quebec (Pop. 8.5M) ICU. Absolute peak was 6 in a month (Jan 2021)

In the last 7 days, 7 children were admitted in Mississippi (Pop. 2.9M) ICU.
In the last ~10 days, 20 children were admitted in single hospital in Louisiana (Pop. 4.6M). It's unclear if they are in the ICU or not, but for reference at the Provincial level Quebec's highest admission in a month was 36 (Jan 2021)

It should be obvious to anyone that something probably changed between then and now.

 

[HBDay]

First article is pretty going in the same direction as the article about Louisiana I linked earlier.
The 2nd is unsurprisingly based on old data once again, March and November 2020.

Since you have that thing with out of date stuff, let me use some to illustrate something...

In the last 550 days (Feb2020-today), a grand total of 30 children between 0-9 were admitted in Quebec (Pop. 8.5M) ICU. Absolute peak was 6 in a month (Jan 2021)

In the last 7 days, 7 children were admitted in Mississippi (Pop. 2.9M) ICU.
In the last ~10 days, 20 children were admitted in single hospital in Louisiana (Pop. 4.6M). It's unclear if they are in the ICU or not, but for reference at the Provincial level Quebec's highest admission in a month was 36 (Jan 2021)

It should be obvious to anyone that something probably changed between then and now.

I understand your angle. It's not what I'm arguing at all. Obviously, the more cases counts, the more children in hospital. That much is obvious. What I am dispelling, and you keep dodging is that it is extremely rare, even from delta, for kids to develop serious complications or death.

You are critical of the age of my data, yet at the same time you compare Quebec to Louisiana which again I could poke holes in until my fingers fall off. Give me Canadian statistics.

Or alternatively, since you love comparing generally unrelateable places give me England then? They are pretty well finished their delta surge, it's collapsing, yet they haven't sent their friends over the pond a friendly warning saying kids are dying like crazy they are severely damaged all over the place.

Because. It. Is. Not. Happening. At. An. Alarming. Pace.

 

[OnTheRun]

I understand your angle. It's not what I'm arguing at all. Obviously, the more cases counts, the more children in hospital. That much is obvious. What I am dispelling, and you keep dodging is that it is extremely rare, even from delta, for kids to develop serious complications or death.

You are critical of the age of my data, yet at the same time you compare Quebec to Louisiana which again I could poke holes in until my fingers fall off. Give me Canadian statistics.

Or alternatively, since you love comparing generally unrelateable places give me England then? They are pretty well finished their delta surge, it's collapsing, yet they haven't sent their friends over the pond a friendly warning saying kids are dying like crazy they are severely damaged all over the place.

Because. It. Is. Not. Happening. At. An. Alarming. Pace.

Jeezus how hard it is for you to comprehend that there is no surge of delta in Canada yet? There is nothing to give or to look at.

Quebec according to the number has one of lowest amount of delta per capita in Canada, in contrast Louisiana and Mississippi are among the highest amount of delta per capita in the US.

old covid vs recent covid if you will. And the rest of your post is about death.... again. While replying to a post about hospitalization, what is it with you and death, like just stop and stick to the point (hint: it's not about death).

 

[HBDay]

First article is pretty going in the same direction as the article about Louisiana I linked earlier.
The 2nd is unsurprisingly based on old data once again, March and November 2020.

Since you have that thing with out of date stuff, let me use some to illustrate something...

In the last 550 days (Feb2020-today), a grand total of 30 children between 0-9 were admitted in Quebec (Pop. 8.5M) ICU. Absolute peak was 6 in a month (Jan 2021)

In the last 7 days, 7 children were admitted in Mississippi (Pop. 2.9M) ICU.
In the last ~10 days, 20 children were admitted in single hospital in Louisiana (Pop. 4.6M). It's unclear if they are in the ICU or not, but for reference at the Provincial level Quebec's highest admission in a month was 36 (Jan 2021)

It should be obvious to anyone that something probably changed between then and now.

To clarify further, a child being in ICU or on a ventilator would be, severe complications. Which again is extremely rare. Even the hospitalization numbers are low in comparison to the rest of the population. I believe they represent 2.2% of hospital stays.

And further more when you then look at underlying conditions these children have, obesity etc. You'll realize it's even more extremely rare for a child to be in hospital seriously sick.

And further more when you factor in race and sex demographics, you will either realize you are slightly more at risk but still extremely rare. Or you will realize that is even more incredibly rare for your child to get seriously sick.

Jeezus how hard it is for you to comprehend that there is no surge of delta in Canada yet? There is nothing to give or to look at.

Quebec according to the number has one of lowest amount of delta per capita in Canada, in contrast Louisiana and Mississippi are among the highest amount of delta per capita in the US.

old covid vs recent covid if you will. And the rest of your post is about death.... again. While replying to a post about hospitalization, what is it with you and death, like just stop and stick to the point (hint: it's not about death).

What are you even talking about then my friend??? You tell me not to use old data because it's new Covid. Then you tell me not to use new Covid because it's not here.

Fine let's go with the numbers we have in Canada. They are extremely low for both hospital, serious complications, severe illness, and my favourite death.

Jeezus how hard it is for you to comprehend that there is no surge of delta in Canada yet? There is nothing to give or to look at.

Quebec according to the number has one of lowest amount of delta per capita in Canada, in contrast Louisiana and Mississippi are among the highest amount of delta per capita in the US.

old covid vs recent covid if you will. And the rest of your post is about death.... again. While replying to a post about hospitalization, what is it with you and death, like just stop and stick to the point (hint: it's not about death).

And you're using Louisiana data where it is delta for your argument! The contradictions are endless. When you use it it's fine, when I do?

First article is pretty going in the same direction as the article about Louisiana I linked earlier.
The 2nd is unsurprisingly based on old data once again, March and November 2020.

Since you have that thing with out of date stuff, let me use some to illustrate something...

In the last 550 days (Feb2020-today), a grand total of 30 children between 0-9 were admitted in Quebec (Pop. 8.5M) ICU. Absolute peak was 6 in a month (Jan 2021)

In the last 7 days, 7 children were admitted in Mississippi (Pop. 2.9M) ICU.
In the last ~10 days, 20 children were admitted in single hospital in Louisiana (Pop. 4.6M). It's unclear if they are in the ICU or not, but for reference at the Provincial level Quebec's highest admission in a month was 36 (Jan 2021)

It should be obvious to anyone that something probably changed between then and now.

Guy literally uses Louisiana data to push his argument here.

Quebec according to the number has one of lowest amount of delta per capita in Canada, in contrast Louisiana and Mississippi are among the highest amount of delta per capita in the US.

old covid vs recent covid if you will. And the rest of your post is about death.... again. While replying to a post about hospitalization, what is it with you and death, like just stop and stick to the point (hint: it's not about death).

Then literally says you can't compare Louisiana and Quebec here. Nuts.

 

[OnTheRun]

What are you even talking about then my friend??? You tell me not to use old data because it's new Covid. Then you tell me not to use new Covid because it's not here.

Fine let's go with the numbers we have in Canada. They are extremely low for both hospital, serious complications, severe illness, and my favourite death.

And you're using Louisiana data where it is delta for your argument! The contradictions are endless. When you use it it's fine, when I do?

Guy literally uses Louisiana data to push his argument here.

Then literally says you can't compare Louisiana and Quebec here. Nuts.

Are you drunk?

 

[HBDay]

Are you drunk?

No. Just fed up with false information being spread around.

And I don't know how to multi quote.

I am speaking solely on the topic of kids. If we speak solely about Canada and don't involve any maybes, ifs and or buts, compare ourselves to southern states etc. Then the fact of the matter is, there is very little to worry about other than your kid getting sick. Which happens all the time with or without Covid.

 

[OnTheRun]

No. Just fed up with false information being spread around.

And I don't know how to multi quote.

I am speaking solely on the topic of kids. If we speak solely about Canada and don't involve any maybes, ifs and or buts, compare ourselves to southern states etc. Then the fact of the matter is, there is very little to worry about other than your kid getting sick. Which happens all the time with or without Covid.

If we are talking about Delta we -cannot- stick solely to Canada where delta is -not- prevalent
We -cannot- use study that predate delta because it's not relevant to delta, something you keep doing.
We should not use cumulative data either, since delta wasn't around at the beginning of the pandemic.

Anyways since you are not drunk, let's give one more shot and go back to the post that seems to have confused the hell out of you

which is this one:

First article is pretty going in the same direction as the article about Louisiana I linked earlier.
The 2nd is unsurprisingly based on old data once again, March and November 2020.

Since you have that thing with out of date stuff, let me use some to illustrate something...

In the last 550 days (Feb2020-today), a grand total of 30 children between 0-9 were admitted in Quebec (Pop. 8.5M) ICU. Absolute peak was 6 in a month (Jan 2021)

In the last 7 days, 7 children were admitted in Mississippi (Pop. 2.9M) ICU.
In the last ~10 days, 20 children were admitted in single hospital in Louisiana (Pop. 4.6M). It's unclear if they are in the ICU or not, but for reference at the Provincial level Quebec's highest admission in a month was 36 (Jan 2021)

It should be obvious to anyone that something probably changed between then and now.

What it mean is pretty simple:

This month, Mississippi (delta) could very much admit more children in the ICU than Quebec (NOT delta) did during the -entire- pandemic. And Mississippi could achieve that with less than half the population of Quebec.

This month, a -single- hospital in Louisiana (delta) could very much hospitalize more children than the entire province of Quebec (NOT delta) did in a month.

There is indications that Delta increase the number of children hospitalizations compared to the previous variants. Doctors in the US are seeing it too.

And just a reminder: It's not about death. Seriously, it's not.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That's a part of it....here's the other part

Great article. Also, the writer makes a good point about segregation. It already exists and has existed for a long time. For as far back as I can remember, children weren’t allowed to attend school unless they had received their basic vaccine shots. This is nothing new. It would simply be extended to the adult population via airports, large gatherings.

If the profile of the unvaccinated is ‘selfish asshole’ then they’ll only do it if it benefits themselves. So put in the restrictions. Employers can do the same thing... and if they don’t get the shot, then you’ve got an excuse to terminate a jackass. It’s win-win.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No. Just fed up with false information being spread around.

And I don't know how to multi quote.

I am speaking solely on the topic of kids. If we speak solely about Canada and don't involve any maybes, ifs and or buts, compare ourselves to southern states etc. Then the fact of the matter is, there is very little to worry about other than your kid getting sick. Which happens all the time with or without Covid.

No risk other than your child just getting sick...

And, you’re cool with this?

 

[waffledave]

Employers can do the same thing... and if they don’t get the shot, then you’ve got an excuse to terminate a jackass. It’s win-win.

This is happening more and more in the US. It's going to be standard there, especially since you can be fired for any reason in most states.

 

[waffledave]

No risk other than your child just getting sick...

And, you’re cool with this?

This is the part I don't understand from these arguments. I don't want my kid getting sick, with anything. They bring up the flu, but I get vaccinated for the flu every year so that my kid doesn't get it. My kid also gets vaccinated for the flu. And you aren't allowed to send your child to school/daycare when they have the flu out of consideration for others. The flu IS dangerous for kids, it can cause lung problems and long-term issues, just like many other viruses are dangerous for children in terms of long-term effects. That's why we vaccinate.

Like what exactly is your point here? COVID probably won't kill my kid so I am good to roll the dice? I can just make another kid if something goes wrong?
I f***ing hate seeing my kid sick with anything, even a cold. I don't like seeing my kid suffering with anything.

 

[Milhouse40]

18 months into this......

 

[waffledave]

18 months into this......

Reading some of the posts in these threads, it seems that the Eugenics approach is more popular that I would have thought.

 

[Milhouse40]

You gotta keep'em vaccinated