OT: COVID-19 Megathread III (Please limit all COVID discussion to this thread)

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adsfan

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May 31, 2008
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Friend of friend posted this on FB ... She works at Ballad Health and previously the Tn Dept of Health.

"233 patients. Today I left our command center and I sat alone in my car for a few minutes and cried.

As we break records day over day, I no longer know what it will take to convince our community, our region, and our state to change behavior. We can beg, plead, or mandate, and it seems I hear so many say they will not change their behavior. I’m not asking you to live in fear. I’m asking for your help.

I’m not looking for thanks or pity or glory. I’m simply sharing that we have reached a point in this pandemic that I prayed we would never reach. We are surging with no end in sight. And I don’t know what to do or say to help.
So what I say to the ones who do ask what they can do for healthcare workers. Well, here’s my list. To be clear, this is MY personal list from my personal thoughts:

• Pray for us. From the leaders and administration facing extremely difficult decisions, to the front line staff that just keep on giving when there’s nothing left to give, to the support departments that run the labs and fix the meals and clean the rooms...we’re tired. And sad. And wondering when it will end.
• Stay home. Just stay home. Stop going to restaurants. Order take out, but the science is there to show that dining in restaurants is a significant contributor to this pandemic. I’m not anti-economy or anti-business. Support those businesses. Order take out. Lord knows my family has ordered take out more than we ever have because I’m simply too tired to cook most nights.
• If your Thanksgiving plans involve anyone outside of your house, cancel them. We did. I don’t want to risk someone in my family being asymptomatic and spreading it to my parents or grandmother.
• Wear the mask. Any time you’re out. And wear it correctly.
This post is not up for debate. It’s where I am today. Comments spreading false information or attacks will be deleted. I’m not up for that today."

I agree.

I think Dr. Scott Atlas is a quack and needs to have his medical license lifted.

The US added 1 million new cases in only 6 days, and Atlas doesn't want people to wear masks.

In an interview Monday on the “TODAY” show, Dr. Anthony Fauci, the government’s leading infectious disease expert, said Atlas’ comments were wrong.

“I totally disagree with him,” Fauci said. “I totally disagree with the stand he takes. I just do, period.”
 
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Armourboy

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I look at it like this, just wear the dang thing if you are gonna be around people, especially if it's going to go past the 15 minutes the CDC talks about. If everyone does and it keeps going up then you can tell everyone to stick it. If it does go down then you've learned something.

It won't take long to see the difference.
 

triggrman

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I think the real problem is mask don't really work. I see more people with mask on than ever before yet we hit almost 8k new cases yesterday, prior to November our single day high was 3314, now we're sitting at a 4.4k daily average. I don't know where the spreads are coming from but the only for sure way to not get it is to not go around other people. I asked our EHS director at work what is their tracing telling them where they're contracting the virus he said a lot were Halloween parties.

I'm not saying don't wear a mask, I'm saying don't start thinking the mask stop the spread, they don't, they can only help.
 

Armourboy

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I tend to think they help, they just aren't the end all be all. I'm often reminded of an interview from an infectious disease expert that worked on biological weapons for the US government and Jordanian government when it was first hitting. Basically he said they don't work, at least not what the general public has access too. He said they would spend an enormous amount of time trying to convince us they do, but he said it was more about making the general public feel like they had some control over it more so than them working.

I tend to think mask mandates work because people stay home more and has less to do with the mask itself. I also think fewer people come in from outside the state too when they are ongoing.

And I'm the same, just wear the thing.
 
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Legionnaire11

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I think that's kind of nonsense to be honest. If masks didn't work, surgeons, doctors and nurses wouldn't be required to wear them. There are numerous studies over the decades to prove the effectiveness of mask wearing.

What you guys are right about is that masks alone are not the solution. We still need to be practicing good hygiene (cleaning surfaces, washing hands) and distancing (limiting gatherings, trips out of the home and keeping distance between yourself and others where possible). In fact I'm pretty sure the data right now says that surface contact is the leading cause of transmission, because people aren't as diligent about not touching surfaces and washing hands. I think if you mentally focus on it for a few minutes, you'd be surprised at how often you touch your face without really thinking about it.

Edit: bad info
 
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triggrman

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I think that's kind of nonsense to be honest. If masks didn't work, surgeons, doctors and nurses wouldn't be required to wear them. There are numerous studies over the decades to prove the effectiveness of mask wearing.

What you guys are right about is that masks alone are not the solution. We still need to be practicing good hygiene (cleaning surfaces, washing hands) and distancing (limiting gatherings, trips out of the home and keeping distance between yourself and others where possible). In fact I'm pretty sure the data right now says that surface contact is the leading cause of transmission, because people aren't as diligent about not touching surfaces and washing hands. I think if you mentally focus on it for a few minutes, you'd be surprised at how often you touch your face without really thinking about it.
I'd be interesting in seeing a study on surface contact being a leading cause.

What I meant by mask don't work is, they don't prevent COVID or the spread of COVID. They can help, but people have a false confidence in mask now, IMHO. If mask wearing worked, we wouldn't be in the middle of our largest outbreak.
 

Legionnaire11

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I'd be interesting in seeing a study on surface contact being a leading cause.

What I meant by mask don't work is, they don't prevent COVID or the spread of COVID. They can help, but people have a false confidence in mask now, IMHO. If mask wearing worked, we wouldn't be in the middle of our largest outbreak.

Just double checked and CDC says surface contact isn't common. I definitely saw a news report saying it was the most common, perhaps it was referring to a specific period.
 
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Adz

Eudora Wannabe
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Just double checked and CDC says surface contact isn't common. I definitely saw a news report saying it was the most common, perhaps it was referring to a specific period.
Pretty sure they said that at the beginning but after further study decided it wasn't the transmitter they thought it was. Pity, Mr. Admiral's little UV light wand he had to have has sat in the corner all this time. Fly away, hundred bucks, fly away...
 
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Porter Stoutheart

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Just double checked and CDC says surface contact isn't common. I definitely saw a news report saying it was the most common, perhaps it was referring to a specific period.
Yeah, that was there in the earliest days. Ah, how time flies. But that was the days of TP shortages and Lysol wipedowns. When there was talk about the virus surviving shockingly long periods on surfaces. But as with much else, data has accumulated allowing for evolution. It was a valid concern at the time. That fortunately turned out not to be as problematic as initially feared.
 
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predfan24

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Masks work as risk mitigators not risk eliminators. If people are piled on top of each other transmission is still possible maybe even probable in the right circumstances. I think messaging around masks has been subpar. I know several people since this all began that have used mask wearing as justification for normal-times behavior. These people weren't being intentionally obtuse. They honestly thought masks meant they wouldn't get infected or infect anyone else.

There is disagreement even among experts. I know Michael Osterholm was extremely critical of the CDC director Redfield saying that if everyone wore masks we could drive the pandemic into the ground in 6-8 weeks and for saying that masks were a more powerful tool than vaccines. It's possible that was a really stupid thing to say and filled people with false hope.

In addition, there have been many articles indicating that transmission has increased dramatically in small gatherings at residences. I'm pretty sure most people don't wear masks in these setting. I know every time I have visited family or friends since March nobody has worn masks inside their homes. We probably should, but it hasn't happened.
 
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predfan24

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Yeah, that was there in the earliest days. Ah, how time flies. But that was the days of TP shortages and Lysol wipedowns. When there was talk about the virus surviving shockingly long periods on surfaces. But as with much else, data has accumulated allowing for evolution. It was a valid concern at the time. That fortunately turned out not to be as problematic as initially feared.

Yep, the term "sanitation theater" has caught on. Every time a business or school closes temporarily they indicate how they are "deep cleaning" when in reality that probably doesn't make a big difference in transmission.
 

triggrman

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Pretty sure they said that at the beginning but after further study decided it wasn't the transmitter they thought it was. Pity, Mr. Admiral's little UV light wand he had to have has sat in the corner all this time. Fly away, hundred bucks, fly away...
I’ve spent thousands on cleaning and cleaning products since this began
 

bdub24

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My sis-in-law just let me know she has been diagnosed as of Saturday. Worried about my mom, lives with my bro and sis-in-law and is in her 80s. It isnt a huge surprise as they bought into the politics of the virus instead of the science. Hoping for the best outcome possible.

blech
 

Adz

Eudora Wannabe
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I’ve spent thousands on cleaning and cleaning products since this began
Need a UV wand to add to your collection? (Mike would kill me. Not really for sale) It's pretty cool, actually, makes you glow blue when you're wielding it. Course, you can't look at it...I took a picture of him with my eyes closed so we could see what it looked like.

Sorry, @bdub24 Hope they're okay.

My hockey friend and I go to lunch every so often, most recently last Thursday. I wear my mask more than he does on a philosophical level, but I am admittedly lax when eating lunch. He's mostly at home, but he has been in the world more than I have and if he doesn't have to wear it, he won't. Yesterday he told me he's pretty sure he has the virus. He's young, he'll be fine. I've been checking my temp every so often and making sure I can still taste stuff (I have a reason now!) I feel okay but I have had a headache for a while now. I figure it's allergies. Guess I'll find out.
 
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adsfan

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May 31, 2008
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I’ve spent thousands on cleaning and cleaning products since this began

Thanks for boosting our economy during this critical period! The cleanliness can't hurt.

I figure that I spent about $100 total. I still have a 3 pack of Clorox Wipes that were on sale at my grocery store. Everybody was walking past them to buy Lysol Wipes. I gave the one smaller Lysol Wipes bottle that I found to my daughter for her new apartment. She had lots of cleaners left over from her old place.

My wife brought home her gallon sized bottle of hand sanitizer from her classroom since her school closed for in person attendance. About 1/4 remains. She is still teaching via Zoom eight months later.

My company makes hand sanitizers and has given out 4 ounce bottles 4 or 5 times to the hundreds of employees.
We also gave them to the few visitors that we have. I still have one on my desk at work and one on my dining room table. A few employees have become infected, but nobody has spread it to another employee as yet.

I look forward to the day that COVID-19 is wiped from the face of the earth!

The first time that I heard the details of COVID-19 was Monday, March 9. A person from the City of Milwaukee Health Department gave a talk. About a week later, everybody in the country who wasn't a hermit knew about it. I remember March Madness being cancelled when my homeboys, the Dayton Flyers, had a real shot at winning it all. They had already taken #1 Kansas into overtime and were just chomping at the bit for another chance to play them.
 
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adsfan

#164303
May 31, 2008
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Need a UV wand to add to your collection? (Mike would kill me. Not really for sale) It's pretty cool, actually, makes you glow blue when you're wielding it. Course, you can't look at it...I took a picture of him with my eyes closed so we could see what it looked like.

Sorry, @bdub24 Hope they're okay.

My hockey friend and I go to lunch every so often, most recently last Thursday. I wear my mask more than he does on a philosophical level, but I am admittedly lax when eating lunch. He's mostly at home, but he has been in the world more than I have and if he doesn't have to wear it, he won't. Yesterday he told me he's pretty sure he has the virus. He's young, he'll be fine. I've been checking my temp every so often and making sure I can still taste stuff (I have a reason now!) I feel okay but I have had a headache for a while now. I figure it's allergies. Guess I'll find out.

I agree with you about bdub's family. I will hope and pray.

My head has been hurting since the first freeze here. I stopped taking my generic Allegra then. I think that it is dry air in my house combined with low air pressure. When they both get low enough, everybody's head hurts. It was 27 F this morning with a Dew Point of 16 F and a pressure just above 30.4 inches of Mercury.
 
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Armourboy

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Hate to be the bearer of bad news but Covid isn't going anywhere and it certainly wont be wiped off the face of the earth. The Plague still exists, small pox, malaria and a million other things we have vaccines for. Spanish Flu didn't just die off, it mutated into a less deadly form and is just one of the several flu viruses that pop up from year to year in a less deadly form. It will just go into the list of 100's of other things that can harm you every year.

My biggest issue with masks is really how they've gone about trying to get people to use them. Some of these advertisements are silly. " masks fight Covid ", no really they don't. Masks protect, they don't fight, otherwise you would see huge drops in rates when mask mandates are issued, when what you really see is moderation.

Masks help, it appears Vitamin D and C can help. They key word is help, not stop.
 

Adz

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Eh, you see that sort of messaging all the time. Seat Belts/Air Bags/Carseats keep you safe (mostly, but not ALL the time). If advertisers (and PSA's ARE advertising of sorts) had to write it like "Masks assist in protecting others from your Covid Breath Drops so wear the damn things" would be a little...wordy. And hard to animate.
 

Armourboy

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So apparently there is a Danish study that just came out where they used 6000 people. 3000 were the control group and worse no masks, 3000 were the mask group. Transmission in the control group was 2.1%, transmission in the mask group was 1.8%. Basically they said the difference is small enough that it just came down to luck.

So has mr wondering, is this virus small enough that maybe masks just aren't really as effective as we think they should be?
 

adsfan

#164303
May 31, 2008
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So apparently there is a Danish study that just came out where they used 6000 people. 3000 were the control group and worse no masks, 3000 were the mask group. Transmission in the control group was 2.1%, transmission in the mask group was 1.8%. Basically they said the difference is small enough that it just came down to luck.

So has mr wondering, is this virus small enough that maybe masks just aren't really as effective as we think they should be?

Maybe it goes around the edges? I have to adjust my temp masks a few times a day as they seem to move around on my face a little. The few N95 masks that I have seen look pretty tight fitting by comparison.
 

Armourboy

Hey! You suck!
Jan 20, 2014
19,198
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Shelbyville, TN
Maybe it goes around the edges? I have to adjust my temp masks a few times a day as they seem to move around on my face a little. The few N95 masks that I have seen look pretty tight fitting by comparison.
Well I know with my beard there are gaps everywhere, N95 or anything else tbh.
 

predfan24

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So apparently there is a Danish study that just came out where they used 6000 people. 3000 were the control group and worse no masks, 3000 were the mask group. Transmission in the control group was 2.1%, transmission in the mask group was 1.8%. Basically they said the difference is small enough that it just came down to luck.

So has mr wondering, is this virus small enough that maybe masks just aren't really as effective as we think they should be?

What was the behavior of the participants? We’re they having company over or visiting others in their residences? Did they wear a mask in those situations? We’re they removing their masks while visiting bars and restaurants? What kind of mask were they wearing? Were they wearing it correctly?

So many factors
 
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predfan24

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Hate to be the bearer of bad news but Covid isn't going anywhere and it certainly wont be wiped off the face of the earth. The Plague still exists, small pox, malaria and a million other things we have vaccines for. Spanish Flu didn't just die off, it mutated into a less deadly form and is just one of the several flu viruses that pop up from year to year in a less deadly form. It will just go into the list of 100's of other things that can harm you every year.

My biggest issue with masks is really how they've gone about trying to get people to use them. Some of these advertisements are silly. " masks fight Covid ", no really they don't. Masks protect, they don't fight, otherwise you would see huge drops in rates when mask mandates are issued, when what you really see is moderation.

Masks help, it appears Vitamin D and C can help. They key word is help, not stop.

Yeah, it sounds like it’s going to be endemic, but if the vaccines really are 90-95% effective and they provide coverage for a considerable length of time COVID could become a rare afterthought provided enough people get reliably and consistently vaccinated.
 

Porter Stoutheart

We Got Wood
Jun 14, 2017
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So apparently there is a Danish study that just came out where they used 6000 people. 3000 were the control group and worse no masks, 3000 were the mask group. Transmission in the control group was 2.1%, transmission in the mask group was 1.8%. Basically they said the difference is small enough that it just came down to luck.

So has mr wondering, is this virus small enough that maybe masks just aren't really as effective as we think they should be?
This was not a study about transmission. And it did not just come out. It was run in April, and it was about the protective ability of masks. There were no controls, and test subjects admitted to varying levels of adherence to the protocol. 42 of 2,393 people in the masked group got Covid, and 53 of 2,470 in the no-mask group got Covid. (There weren't 6000 subjects either). But either way there is no statistical difference in these populations, and even the authors admitted that due to the lack of controls it really says nothing about the efficacity of masks as protections against acquiring Covid.

There HAVE been studys of masks in terms of fiber density and composition and all that vs. the virus size and binding affinity and you can look those up. They are scientific and controlled.

But what you misstated, and what is really important, again, about mask use IS the transmission. Or how a mask may affect the so-called R0 number. And that's a number that you won't be able to look up easily either, because it varies so much with environment. But the real thing you want to do, as a responsible member of society, is make your own contribution to keeping your personal Ro as low as possible. That encompasses several factors, but two easy ones are your social interactions and your ability to emit the virus if you get infected. If you interact with less people (i.e. shutdowns, social distancing), you won't be able to spread it as easily once you get the virus. If you wear a mask, you won't be able to spread it as easily once you get the virus. Those are the two biggies. And nobody says either of them are 100% effective either. (Well, I guess TOTAL true quarantine would be, but that's hard to do since most people get the virus before they even know they have it and so many people get asymptomatic or extremely mild symptoms, so it's not possible to truly quarantine everybody effectively in time).

Virus transmission is exponential. Just as an illustrative example, say your R0 is 3.0 (you can find a SLEW of different studies for Covid from basically 1 to 6, but those all essentially come down to environment). We won't ever have a real single number on it that applies equally to everybody everywhere at all times. But say it's 3.0. In that case, within 3 incubation cycles, a person infected with Covid would normally spread the virus to 40 people.

microbe-2.svg


Now suppose instead the infected person wears a mask whenever out and about, and that is NOT perfect, but suppose it reduces the R0 from 3 to 2 in your environment, thanks to the mask blocking some of your virus output. You think, wow, that's not super effective since you still infect 2 other people instead of 3. That's hardly effective at all! And yet, over 3 incubation cycles of a mask-wearing population, only 15 people in total get infected.

microbe-1.svg


People need to stop thinking in absolutes, and just get on with doing your part. Yes, nothing is perfect. But these things add up quickly. Again, I'm not saying these are the exact numbers, they are just illustrative examples. You can Google 20 different results. And what your media is going to do is cherry pick the result that gives you the answer you are already looking for. So yes, you WILL find an article that says Ro is not affected by masks. Bogus. And you WILL find an article that says Ro is 1 and one that says it is 5.7 and again, they have limitations. But the underlying principle is what matters. A mask WILL have an effect. It is not perfect, nor is it well quantified yet. But do you want to have a positive effect at limiting the spread of the virus, at whatever level, or don't you?
 
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