COVID-19 (Coronavirus)

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2wayPlay

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Dec 25, 2018
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Yeah, I am super fortunate that my job is essentially mandated to exist by federal regulations. Our CEO promised no COVID related job losses in 2020 when this kicked off in March, but we're already scaling back by not renewing contractors and reducing our intake for intern/new grad programs.

This is going to be biblically disastrous if the fiscal stimulus stops. The Fed is already running full tilt.

My company said the same thing. Not sure how that makes me feel about January 1st 2021 however.
 
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2wayPlay

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Dec 25, 2018
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when did it become verboten to say a young life is worth more than an old one? like, have you talked to an old person? they agree, unless they’re completely self involved

That’s why a Father or even more so a Grandfather would always sacrifice their life for their child. Protecting our babies is in a humans DNA for god sake. Not that I am saying we should accept older people dying and that it wouldn’t be horrible if it happened to my Father or yours. The whole situation is awful and something I never thought I would see.
 

Factorial

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Oct 7, 2019
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Sideline

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May 23, 2004
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That’s why a Father or even more so a Grandfather would always sacrifice their life for their child. Protecting our babies is in a humans DNA for god sake. Not that I am saying we should accept older people dying and that it wouldn’t be horrible if it happened to my Father or yours. The whole situation is awful and something I never thought I would see.
Yeah, if the choice is a ventilator for people our age or a 9 year old and we're all equally likely to die without it there's not much to debate as far as I see it.
 

Fordy

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May 28, 2008
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That’s why a Father or even more so a Grandfather would always sacrifice their life for their child. Protecting our babies is in a humans DNA for god sake. Not that I am saying we should accept older people dying and that it wouldn’t be horrible if it happened to my Father or yours. The whole situation is awful and something I never thought I would see.
of course not. regardless of what some people want to think to avoid engaging with the topic, i'm not suggesting that some people just don't matter. i'm saying that people here simply aren't willing to have the adult conversation that other countries do with relative ease, which is to acknowledge that this mainly a danger for the elderly, and that you have to find a place in between "shut everything down, keep the kids of school, sit on your hands and wait for a miracle vaccine while 60-70% of your local businesses die off, and anyone who questions it is a bad person" and "throwing everyone over 65 to the wolves" or you are dooming your children, and everyone coming of age during this, to all kinds of suffering that will far out last a pandemic that will ultimately resolve itself within a few years just like all other past pandemics

what's europe doing? they're sheltering the old and vulnerable and their communities are looking out for them, and the rest of them are sending their kids to school and going back to work and trying to live the most normal life possible. everything here is so based on cultural signifiers (and politics is only part of that) that people completely shut down at the prospect that someone would question the government response (as long as its the government they support - if its a different one in a different state, they're all in). they see someone in a bar (or even just someone suggest that maybe wanting to go to a bar is a normal human impulse), shout murderer, and block anyone that disagrees, no need to think critically at all
 

NMK11

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Apr 6, 2013
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of course not. regardless of what some people want to think to avoid engaging with the topic, i'm not suggesting that some people just don't matter. i'm saying that people here simply aren't willing to have the adult conversation that other countries do with relative ease, which is to acknowledge that this mainly a danger for the elderly, and that you have to find a place in between "shut everything down, keep the kids of school, sit on your hands and wait for a miracle vaccine while 60-70% of your local businesses die off, and anyone who questions it is a bad person" and "throwing everyone over 65 to the wolves" or you are dooming your children, and everyone coming of age during this, to all kinds of suffering that will far out last a pandemic that will ultimately resolve itself within a few years just like all other past pandemics

I get what you're saying, but this part is pure conjecture. You're stating that we're "dooming" children as a fact when it most definitely is not. It's an opinion that a lot of people don't agree with, and setting up this false duality that you stated above is a bit disingenuous.

what's europe doing? they're sheltering the old and vulnerable and their communities are looking out for them, and the rest of them are sending their kids to school and going back to work and trying to live the most normal life possible. everything here is so based on cultural signifiers (and politics is only part of that) that people completely shut down at the prospect that someone would question the government response (as long as its the government they support - if its a different one in a different state, they're all in). they see someone in a bar (or even just someone suggest that maybe wanting to go to a bar is a normal human impulse), shout murderer, and block anyone that disagrees, no need to think critically at all
Do you think that everyone who doesn't agree with you hasn't thought it through and weighed their own values and positions? You're quite literally saying people who don't agree with you aren't thinking critically, which seems very hypocritical.
 

Fordy

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May 28, 2008
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I get what you're saying, but this part is pure conjecture. You're stating that we're "dooming" children as a fact when it most definitely is not. It's an opinion that a lot of people don't agree with, and setting up this false duality that you stated above is a bit disingenuous.

all you're doing is asserting that it isn't true, but you have no reason or evidence to support that. we have had countless pandemics throughout history and we basically understand their life cycle - they come in, they swell, they cause problems, they eventually recede. we know that it doesn't knock a populace off track for more than a few years

we have absolutely 0 historical precedent for what happens when you artificially shut down an economy, break up established social bonds, and put people out of work and into atomized households indefinitely. where does your optimism that it won't have any effect come from? after 2008, people that were graduating at that time and trying to enter the workforce were seriously behind the 8 ball - in fact their earning power has essentially been handicapped for life. why don't you think that will happen again?

Do you think that everyone who doesn't agree with you hasn't thought it through and weighed their own values and positions? You're quite literally saying people who don't agree with you aren't thinking critically, which seems very hypocritical.

no i'm saying they're just agreeing with everything they read in the news and from politicians, and moving effortlessly from the current talking point to the next, discarding the last one without any reflection. i'd like to see them disagree with something that isn't the mainstream media consensus and then i could say "well at least they're thinking about what they're reading". this thread was filled with articles declaring that hospitals in texas, arizona, and florida were overrun or about to be overrun at any moment. it never happened and hospital censuses have been declining for weeks now, but i don't see anyone that shared these headlines saying "huh, i guess that was wrong". at the same time, they casually dismiss any headlines out of europe about what they think about returning to work, school, and so on - i mean these countries are already saying maybe masks aren't what they should be doing anymore, but there's like 2 people total here that will even acknowledge that they're saying this because it isn't part of the american talking points
 
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ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
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I do think we are verging into interesting territory. These places aren't given any lift for their rent or their costs but are told to operate at a small percent. I think if you are going to demand they do so, then you have to provide something to them as relief.

And as this goes on and on and on... i'm thinking we are going to see some very interesting scenarios out there. I obviously want everyone to be safe, but i'd be a fool to say I don't understand why bars are doing what they are doing.
 

NMK11

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Apr 6, 2013
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all you're doing is asserting that it isn't true, but you have no reason or evidence to support that. we have had countless pandemics throughout history and we basically understand their life cycle - they come in, they swell, they cause problems, they eventually recede. we know that it doesn't knock a populace off track for more than a few years

we have absolutely 0 historical precedent for what happens when you artificially shut down an economy, break up established social bonds, and put people out of work and into atomized households indefinitely. where does your optimism that it won't have any effect come from? after 2008, people that were graduating at that time and trying to enter the workforce were seriously behind the 8 ball - in fact their earning power has essentially been handicapped for life. why don't you think that will happen again?

I have to provide evidence for saying "we don't know if something will happen", but you provide absolutely no evidence for stating "something is going to happen"? That's not how things work. I mean, I know the virus is killing people. That's a fact. I know it's killing mostly old people, but also some younger healthy people. That's a fact. I know that for whatever reason, children seem to be spared both from getting it and also from mortality. That's a fact. You stated:
or you are dooming your children, and everyone coming of age during this, to all kinds of suffering that will far out last a pandemic that will ultimately resolve itself within a few years just like all other past pandemics
as though this was a fact. Am I wrong that you weren't stating this as a fact? Do you know that children are doomed and won't recover? Do you know that there will be suffering from a lockdown far outlast a few years of increased numbers of people dying? That is what I was responding to, an opinion stated incorrectly as a fact. There's enough of this happening here and in general that I'm not going to not call it out. I mean, you then go on to state how much you dislike mainstream news media stating opinions as fact, yet fail to see that you just did the same:

no i'm saying they're just agreeing with everything they read in the news and from politicians, and moving effortlessly from the current talking point to the next, discarding the last one without any reflection. i'd like to see them disagree with something that isn't the mainstream media consensus and then i could say "well at least they're thinking about what they're reading". this thread was filled with articles declaring that hospitals in texas, arizona, and florida were overrun or about to be overrun at any moment. it never happened and hospital censuses have been declining for weeks now, but i don't see anyone that shared these headlines saying "huh, i guess that was wrong". at the same time, they casually dismiss any headlines out of europe about what they think about returning to work, school, and so on - i mean these countries are already saying maybe masks aren't what they should be doing anymore, but there's like 2 people total here that will even acknowledge that they're saying this because it isn't part of the american talking points

Side note, I agree with you that I wish people did more critical thinking with news sources in general, and there's a lot of incorrect parroting of things. However, I have to again point out that yes, some hospitals did fill up with ICU beds, which is dangerous. And of course, this is all in the context of having lockdowns. So saying "we didn't get overrun so why don't we open things up" is missing some context.

So your previous two posts have:
1) stated how you don't like opinions being stated as facts, then state your own opinion as a fact
2) said you want people to acknowledge context and information but not acknowledging context yourself.

Can't have it both ways. It's a frustrating thing on these boards that people try to come in as a superior
 
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Fordy

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May 28, 2008
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I have to provide evidence for saying "we don't know if something will happen", but you provide absolutely no evidence for stating "something is going to happen"? That's not how things work. I mean, I know the virus is killing people. That's a fact. I know it's killing mostly old people, but also some younger healthy people. That's a fact. I know that for whatever reason, children seem to be spared both from getting it and also from mortality. That's a fact. You stated:

did i not clearly refer to the consequences of the 2008 crash? i'm asking why you think this won't have the same effect

Do you know that there will be suffering from a lockdown far outlast a few years of increased numbers of people dying?

yes, unless you explain why this is going to be different than 2008, i see no reason to question this. people that graduated and tried to start careers during that multi year time frame have been permanently set back in numerous ways

Bad News For The Class Of 2008
Economic scarring: The long-term impacts of the recession (i have no idea what this site's agenda is but its on the front page of google)

at least in 2008, we were still socializing and educating our children, you know, enrolling them in sports and so on. but i think you may be conflating my concerns for the mental health of younger children, with older young people trying to start their lives during this

1) stated how you don't like opinions being stated as facts, then state your own opinion as a fact
2) said you want people to acknowledge context and information but not acknowledging context yourself.

Can't have it both ways. It's a frustrating thing on these boards that people try to come in as a superior

i'm not sure either of these are exactly what i said, but i guess it doesn't matter
 
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Jaded-Fan

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Mar 18, 2004
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Pittsburgh
I do think we are verging into interesting territory. These places aren't given any lift for their rent or their costs but are told to operate at a small percent. I think if you are going to demand they do so, then you have to provide something to them as relief.

And as this goes on and on and on... i'm thinking we are going to see some very interesting scenarios out there. I obviously want everyone to be safe, but i'd be a fool to say I don't understand why bars are doing what they are doing.

I am more torn.

We have already lost 60% of restaurants. They are already gone.

How much does it cost to run a business, between rent, utilities, etc? From tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars a month. Multiplied by what? 31 million small businesses.

10 Small Business Statistics You Need to Know in 2020 [May 2020].

By the time we have enough vaccinated for herd immunity, most likely by maybe February at best, unless you are going to spend an unthinkable amount, you are going to flush a lot of that money down the toilet because most of those businesses are going to go under anyways if you throw only a few dollars at them, which is what would happen. And the current program, a loan, only makes things tougher to get out from under after this ends as you have all of these small margin businesses now with hundreds of thousands of dollar in loans to repay.

It is another of the no-win choices in this pandemic.
 
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Jaded-Fan

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Mar 18, 2004
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More good news.



The five new deaths were reported to be individuals in their 80s and 90s, with dates of death ranging from July 25 to Aug. 1. People 70 and older have accounted for the majority of the county’s deaths.

The new numbers are from tests dating from July 15 to Aug. 4. The new cases range in age from 11 months to 94 years old with a median age of 42. Of the new cases, 68 are confirmed and two probable.

 
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SouthGeorge

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May 2, 2018
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They only have to drag this along for another 2 months. Then when it gets cold again people will get colds/flu and they will fear it's Covid.
 
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NMK11

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Apr 6, 2013
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did i not clearly refer to the consequences of the 2008 crash? i'm asking why you think this won't have the same effect



yes, unless you explain why this is going to be different than 2008, i see no reason to question this. people that graduated and tried to start careers during that multi year time frame have been permanently set back in numerous ways

Economic scarring: The long-term impacts of the recession

at least in 2008, we were still socializing and educating our children, you know, enrolling them in sports and so on. but i think you may be conflating my concerns for the mental health of younger children, with older young people trying to start their lives during this



i'm not sure either of these are exactly what i said, but i guess it doesn't matter
Your point on the stock market is fair. I might not fully agree that a stock market crash is the same, but your point stands as evidence. But you still can't say bad things happened at one point so bad things are going to happen again and call it a fact. It's an opinion, conjecture. Possibly right, sure, but also possible not. Unless you have some sort of other proof or more examples of economic hardships outlasting and being more damaging than the worst pandemic in 100 years, what you're doing is stating your opinion and giving evidence to support your opinion, you AREN'T stating a fact. I'd ask that if you respond, you state why it's a fact that the economic outcome will be worse than the pandemic results. It may seem pedantic, but I believe not being able to differentiate between facts and opinions is a problem in today's social media society where everyone has a loud voice. If you don't get that there's really no use in continuing this.

And for those last two points, if you're going to insist that your opinion is a fact then we'll just have to move on from 1.

For 2, you want people to think critically and use context, yes? I definitely agree with you there. But then you use the example of hospitals being close to being overrun and then aren't as people not accepting that a headline was wrong. But, if you had thought critically and used context clues, you would have realized those hospitals were actually near to being full (some were actually full, diverting patients away - this is a fact, I believe Houston and several in Florida of ones I know), and that they got close to being overrun while we are doing quite a lot to flatten the curve. So maybe reports of being close to full aren't all that off? I don't know, seems like a reasonable report to me and not at all wrong. Again, if you respond, If you had gone off on the sensationalism of it all, then yes, I'd be 100% with you there. But if that's what you had issue with then you worded it oddly.

I mean, this all goes back to your original post taking the high road and saying others aren't thinking critically when you're sort of doing the same. I see it all over the place on these boards, so there's no point to calling it out every time unless

no need to think critically at all
 
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Randy Butternubs

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Mar 15, 2008
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I do think we are verging into interesting territory. These places aren't given any lift for their rent or their costs but are told to operate at a small percent. I think if you are going to demand they do so, then you have to provide something to them as relief.

And as this goes on and on and on... i'm thinking we are going to see some very interesting scenarios out there. I obviously want everyone to be safe, but i'd be a fool to say I don't understand why bars are doing what they are doing.

Isn't this [the bolded] what a number of people in this thread have been suggesting?
 
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ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
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@ColePens - did your buddy re-open their gym?

They did but are taking quite the hit. I would say memberships dropped 40%. Luckily we helped him pivot to an online mobile platform that is saving a little bit of bacon but niche studios/gyms are taking a massssssive punch to the gut.

So hold on for hope they last, but I see a lot of cancellations and rightfully so as people TRY to stay healthy.
 
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ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
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Pittsburgh
Isn't this [the bolded] what a number of people in this thread have been suggesting?

I don't think I understand your response. I said from the very beginning as I watched a bunch of my buddies with small businesses struggle.

The reality when I truly sit down and think "How do we do this without it being exploited by companies who don't need it?" That's where I find it hard to identify a solution. Because let's face one thing... the only reason companies returned SOME of the money from the first wave is because they got called out.

So the "How can we do this without being exploited badly" is tough.
 
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Jaded-Fan

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I don't think I understand your response. I said from the very beginning as I watched a bunch of my buddies with small businesses struggle.

The reality when I truly sit down and think "How do we do this without it being exploited by companies who don't need it?" That's where I find it hard to identify a solution. Because let's face one thing... the only reason companies returned SOME of the money from the first wave is because they got called out.

So the "How can we do this without being exploited badly" is tough.


When there is a huge pot of government money there will always be scammers.

That is not the real problem.

The real problem is that I am not entirely sure that the problem can be fixed. The cost would either be an unimaginable amount, or more likely a smaller amount gesture pot will be established so that politicians can pretend that they did something. All of which will likely not stop very many businesses from going under because it is too small to make a difference in the huge hole that they are in.

It would be like throwing one inflatable Mickey Mouse pool raft at the sinking Titanic and saying, look at me, I helped.
 
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Mr. T

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Feb 15, 2003
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They did but are taking quite the hit. I would say memberships dropped 40%. Luckily we helped him pivot to an online mobile platform that is saving a little bit of bacon but niche studios/gyms are taking a massssssive punch to the gut.

So hold on for hope they last, but I see a lot of cancellations and rightfully so as people TRY to stay healthy.

That's good that he's still around in some capacity. Like all the other small businesses, I hope he makes it.

I asked as I was curious how he's operating. My gym is still closed, but a friend is now working as a trainer at a niche gym. This gym is only letting four to eight people in each hour in four segregated pods. When the person (or duo) finishes, the pod is briefly closed and disinfected, then the next person/duo can come in. Selfishly, the gym is the thing I miss most so I'm probably going to take the plunge starting next week.
 
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