Countries that lost their Mojo

alko

Registered User
Oct 20, 2004
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Slovakia
www.slovakhockey.sk
There were times, when Bulgaria was 4th at World Cup. Hristo Stoichkov won Golden Shoe with 6 goals.

But their last appearance at World Cup was in 1998 and Euro in 2004.

Romania had their Maradona - Gheorghe Hagi. But also their national team was last seeon on World Cup in 1998.

Norway.... where is Norway? Turkey and most visible drop down in recent years: Greece.

What did go wrong?
 

Corto

Faceless Man
Sep 28, 2005
15,991
942
Braavos
Couple of things IMO.

First off, many of the old communist countries had a rule that players couldn't leave domestic clubs until age 27.
Yugoslavia had this rule as well. It led to stronger domestic leagues, stronger competition, stronger clubs (Red Star Belgrade and Steaua Bukurest winning the EC shortly before Yugoslavia/USSR/Czechoslovakia all fell apart).
After those breakups, most old-communist countries had strong generations left over (Bulgaria, Romania peaking in 1994, Croatia coming onto the scene in 1996 and 1998, Yugoslavia in 1998 were only ousted by a wonderful Dutch side on a late Davids goal, etc.).

Turkey wasn't really a historically good football nation, their rise started in the 90s and they've been fairly consistent ever since (with two peaks in 2002 and 2008).

Secondly, EU and Bosman ruling means that top leagues can just buy players willy-nilly.
Loads of these young kids come to the top leagues and end up not playing and not being developed properly.
Doesn't mean most of them would become world class players, but some would definitely become serviceable players instead of flat-out flops had they been given time and attention.

Third... A lot of the success of the smaller nations is based on talent and not exactly football schools.
After a strong generation it's entirely possible you'll end up with a weaker one.

Croatia, for example, followed up a generation of Boban, Suker, Boksic, Jarni, Bilic, Stanic, Simic, etc... With Dado Prso as its best player, Giovanni Rosso and Nenad Bjelica (how many people where know of them?) winning caps in big tournaments and the only reason we ever qualified for anything was that our CBs were Tudor and Robert Kovac and we sort of outgrinded teams to 1-0 wins.

Czech Republic of 2004 (IMO best team of the 2004 EURO) followed up the Nedved generation by a bunch of no-names as well.

The only "cure" is to set up proper football academies, and hope the scouts and talent hunters are good enough, the coaches paid well enough to ignore kids' parents offering bribes etc.

And even then, there's no guarantee you'll end up with contending teams.
Even Holland went through 3 cycles of not qualifying for big tournaments.
 

koyvoo

Registered User
Nov 8, 2014
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Greece was never really good aside from one magical summer.

Turkey has a lot of quality youth right now. They’re probably heading into a golden generation of sorts.
 

Savi

Registered User
Dec 3, 2006
9,276
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Bruges, Belgium
I always feel that Turkey are way too emotional to have any kind of real, sustained succes

But yeah 'smaller' football countries just have these talent waves that come and go. Belgium had them as well. We were HORRIBLE from about 2004 to 2012-ish before this generation broke through. Players would litetally come up with excuses to not have to play for the NT lol
 

HajdukSplit

Registered User
Nov 9, 2005
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NJ
Croatia, for example, followed up a generation of Boban, Suker, Boksic, Jarni, Bilic, Stanic, Simic, etc... With Dado Prso as its best player, Giovanni Rosso and Nenad Bjelica (how many people where know of them?) winning caps in big tournaments and the only reason we ever qualified for anything was that our CBs were Tudor and Robert Kovac and we sort of outgrinded teams to 1-0 wins.

As I get older I think Croatian fans are a bit spoiled to the relative success of the NT (at least when talking about the Cros in the diaspora). A country of 4-4.5m people with probably the worst football infrastructure in the EU has made all but two tournaments since independence, only the likes of Germany, Spain, England etc. have a higher success rate. As you said, Croatia had a brutal generation from 2002-2006ish but they still managed to qualify, especially that Euro 2004 team which was carried by Dado Prso and a decent enough defense. I worry a bit about the team post-Modric, the media seems to think everything is fine but I’m not convinced. We will always create decent players but the depth at some positions is shocking even for small country standards (lack of Croatian strikers in the HNL, imagine if Petkovic didn’t regain his form at Dinamo added with Kramaric’s injury? Since Vrsaljko’s injury both the ‘A’ and U21s are playing without a right back!) Only thing which will help is tournaments are expanding, wouldn’t be shocked if in the next 20 years they are expanded again :D

As for the other teams mentioned…
- Bulgaria’s football infrastructure is shockingly bad (maybe the only EU country worse than Croatia’s) and it doesn’t help that the football is often mixed with corruption and even the mafia over there. The domestic league is awful. They had one super good generation in the 90s and that’s it, even before that their clubs didn’t do much when it was more equal playing field and their NT didn’t do anything either
- Greece was a solid NT for a period of about 10 years, nothing more. By winning Euro 2004 they became seeded for the qualifying draws and would usually draw soft groups (seems like they always drew the likes of Israel, Latvia and Bosnia). To their credit they took advantage and qualified usually without too many problems and remained seeded. I am shocked at how far down they have fallen to the point they are losing at home to the likes of Liechtenstein and Armenia. They have the potential to return to their former level at least (I mean they did make the playoffs for 2018 WC) but it’s another domestic league with largely foreign players.

For me Russia and Turkey should be doing much better with their infrastructure, population and solid domestic leagues (although a lot of foreigners). We will see what kind of bounce Russia gets from the 2018 World Cup. To a lesser extent Serbia should be doing better, if they fail to qualify for Euro 2020 that means they would have only qualified for one Euro since the breakup of Yugoslavia and except for the 1998 World Cup all group stage exits. Though that’s another country where there is so much corruption within their football and a lot of nefarious selections/managerial hires. From an outsiders perspective their players don't seem to have the same passion to play for their country like the Croatian ones for example

And this is only Europe, globally the likes of Mexico and Nigeria generally qualify for World Cups but never make any noise there. Mexico hasn’t made the quarters outside of hosting while the likes of Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, Russia, Ghana, South Korea and Turkey have. It’s a football-mad country with a strong domestic league and good players in European leagues. Nigeria haven’t translated their youth success (I know there are usually accusations about age cheating but it hasn’t been founded yet). In 2019, USA should be much further along than they are now, especially with the growth of MLS and the supposed surplus of income the federation has, but this generation is worse than the one from the late 90s/early 2000s. They missed a World Cup from one of the least cut throat qualifying regions where as long as you win your home games you qualify. China really needs to improve in the next decades. I actually worry a bit about Argentina post-Messi and the troubles their domestic football seems to have. They will probably be ok in terms of qualifying for tournaments but I can see them lose the status of “superpower”
 
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I wonder how much the Greek economic crisis has affected the country's football.
 

S E P H

Cloud IX
Mar 5, 2010
30,712
16,239
Toruń, PL
Greece was never really good aside from one magical summer.
You're probably right, but no reason or excuses to lose to Finland. Lol, that is beyond brutal and for the sake of this thread they are the definitions of this thread. Perhaps you can include Argentina as well since they haven't won anything relevant in a long time as well.
 

Stray Wasp

Registered User
May 5, 2009
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South east London
Greece was never really good aside from one magical summer.

I'd suggest (although in typing this I can imagine the much-missed Plato bridling) that in 2004 Greece were 'effective' rather than 'good'. Their emphasis on block organisation and defensive resilience didn't leave a blueprint that was particularly helpful for keeping up with the sport's tactical and technical evolutions. The same can be said of Norway under Egil Olsen.
 
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Corto

Faceless Man
Sep 28, 2005
15,991
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Braavos
As I get older I think Croatian fans are a bit spoiled to the relative success of the NT (at least when talking about the Cros in the diaspora). A country of 4-4.5m people with probably the worst football infrastructure in the EU has made all but two tournaments since independence, only the likes of Germany, Spain, England etc. have a higher success rate. As you said, Croatia had a brutal generation from 2002-2006ish but they still managed to qualify, especially that Euro 2004 team which was carried by Dado Prso and a decent enough defense. I worry a bit about the team post-Modric, the media seems to think everything is fine but I’m not convinced. We will always create decent players but the depth at some positions is shocking even for small country standards (lack of Croatian strikers in the HNL, imagine if Petkovic didn’t regain his form at Dinamo added with Kramaric’s injury? Since Vrsaljko’s injury both the ‘A’ and U21s are playing without a right back!) Only thing which will help is tournaments are expanding, wouldn’t be shocked if in the next 20 years they are expanded again :D

Croatia is a bit weird. I used to play youth football for Hrvatski Dragovoljac, the (then) 3rd strongest club in Croatia, and I still talk here and there to some of the guys linked to clubs and academies (and refs lol) etc.

Thing is, for all the harm that Mamic has caused over the years (absolutely ruined the league, wasted invaluable years of the Modric generation on inept, puppet managers, etc.) the Dinamo academy took off.
It is now (IMO) one of the best non-top 5 leagues academies out there, and probably (easily) the best in this part of Europe.
Every single kid with an ounce of talent is probably gonna end up at Dinamo sooner or later (most kids anyway) - meaning they spend time in a great football program.
Downside... Every single kid with an ounce of talent is probably gonna end up at Dinamo (most kids anywway) - meaning the rest of the league is rubbish, nobody watches it, ridiculously low crowd numbers, etc.

The academy is, btw, part of the reason why we've been pumping out top midfielders over the last 10 years, but have suffered elsewhere ever since.
Post-2002/2004 there was a big change in philosophy in the academy, the coaches started focusing on "modern midfielders" that could both run and be tactically and technically able to play at the top level (mostly brought on by having technical midfielders who couldn't run, like Prosinecki or Asanovic, in the past).
It is no coincidence that Kranjcar and Modric were followed up by Kovacic, Brozovic (he actually started in the Hrvatski Dragovoljac youth program), Badelj, now Moro, Majer, Ivanusec are coming up, etc.

Depth is unfortunately where we will always lack in certain positions, we haven't had a world class LB since Jarni (17 years now), and yes, Vrsaljko is our only choice at RB.
However, Bradaric (19) is coming up at LB, and we just might have bridged the gap from Modric/Rakitic/Mandzukic/etc. with guys like Kovacic, Brozovic, Kramaric, Petkovic, Rebic, to give the 19/20 years olds time to mature.

That's the only way the smaller countries can really stay consistent.

England, France, Germany, Spain, etc... They'll have U-21 title contenders every year.
Some better than others, but loads of top talent to choose from.

We won't. But with proper management, scouting and player development we can just pull off a string of generations in one line up to compete with the biggest nations with huge budgets and superior infrastructure.

...

As far as post-Modric... It's not just the quality. IMO Kovacic and Brozovic can be the world's best double-pivot in international football, and you build a 4-2-3-1 etc, for example. But replace Modric? No.
Modric is like an RPG character, gives +1 stats to all the others on the pitch, noone who doesn't watch him regularly understands this aura he brings, how much the game is easier for others around him with him at their disposal, how much he makes others better around him, even now, at advanced age and in an injury-plagued season.
(I know it's been lost in the fall of Madrid, and Modric himself, over the last year, but he still has that ability to be the best midfielder in the game, even now - just not with the same consistency... and no, we won't be able to replace him. Peak Modric is the best player I've ever watched as opening up passing lanes, and he was so versatile at doing it - passing, off-ball-movement, dribbling past people, etc. It made his team basically press-immune and it was a huge reason why Madrid did so well in the CL for so long)

Sometimes you just have some special players that no academy can replace.
I imagine it'll be the same for Belgium once KDB and Hazard are gone, for example.
 

Savi

Registered User
Dec 3, 2006
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Bruges, Belgium
Sometimes you just have some special players that no academy can replace.
I imagine it'll be the same for Belgium once KDB and Hazard are gone, for example.

Yeah for us it's more KDB than Hazard though. Look, Hazard can be amazing sometimes then don't really add anything the next game. I don't really think we're dependent on him. KDB however makes this team work, he's the engine, the creator, the only one who can be downright unplayable for the opposition.

Every single kid with an ounce of talent is probably gonna end up at Dinamo (most kids anywway) - meaning the rest of the league is rubbish, nobody watches it, ridiculously low crowd numbers, etc.

You know, there's a lot of talk recently about a BeNe-League where Belgian and Dutch teams would combine to form one league to try and close to gap with the likes of Germany, France etc, and with all these talks about a new look CL in a few years - has there ever, at any point, been talk about a possible Balkan league or something? You've got Dinamo doing very well now, Partizan and Crvena are getting into CL/EL group stages as well. Or would such a thing be impossible?
 

maclean

Registered User
Jan 4, 2014
8,380
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has there ever, at any point, been talk about a possible Balkan league or something? You've got Dinamo doing very well now, Partizan and Crvena are getting into CL/EL group stages as well. Or would such a thing be impossible?

:eek::eek::eek:
 

Corto

Faceless Man
Sep 28, 2005
15,991
942
Braavos
ou know, there's a lot of talk recently about a BeNe-League where Belgian and Dutch teams would combine to form one league to try and close to gap with the likes of Germany, France etc, and with all these talks about a new look CL in a few years - has there ever, at any point, been talk about a possible Balkan league or something? You've got Dinamo doing very well now, Partizan and Crvena are getting into CL/EL group stages as well. Or would such a thing be impossible?

There was talk and, thankfully, the idea died.

It's not just the possible violence and security concerncs (most of the more extreme ultras of basically every club here are petty criminals - or worse), it's that we had the experience in basketball... And it doesn't really work.
The (then called) Adriatic league started out strong, with plenty of interest, it was even legitimized by FIBA which gave it 1 spot in basketball version of the champions' league at the time.
It last maybe 2-3 years.

Since then, interest died, and worse, the national leagues did as well.
While we still churn out players (Croatia, Serbia and Slovenia have strong basketball traditions) it's all down to individuals and talented kids going to clubs like Real Madrid and getting their basketball education there (Luka Doncic for example).

So, while there are definitely positives to a BeNe-League or a Balkan-like creation, I think any success would be short term and long term it just leads to leagues dying and all the smaller clubs disappearing (and small clubs are huge in attracting local talent who then goes on to bigger clubs).

(I'm not saying that'll happen to BeNe league, but I would definitely be wary of it)
 

Savi

Registered User
Dec 3, 2006
9,276
1,862
Bruges, Belgium
But then again the Croatian league as it is now, is dead anyway. It also only has 10 teams.. I know there are plenty of concerns but on paper a 16/18 team league with the likes of Maribor, Sarajevo, Vardar etc added looks like fun but I know it's more of a fantasy idea. It would at least make Balkan football more relevant again and would maybe force some teams to get their shit together. I mean look at Hajduk, how long has it been since they were any good?

As for fan violence, well, just don't allow away fans in high risk matchups. Thats how they do it in Holland with Ajax and Feyenoord for example.

BeNe-League also isn't close to happening anytime soon though. Looks like nobody in Holland wants it, in Belgium some teams have shown interest but we're a long way from anything being concrete in terms of a clear plan moving forward.
 

YEM

Registered User
Mar 7, 2010
5,718
2,697
certainly should be applicable to the USA, we all know what's happened there since the national federation went into bed with the MLS and coaxed a lot of the upper end players to come back and play at home in a 3rd rate league...
 

bleedblue1223

Registered User
Jan 21, 2011
51,762
14,675
certainly should be applicable to the USA, we all know what's happened there since the national federation went into bed with the MLS and coaxed a lot of the upper end players to come back and play at home in a 3rd rate league...
This implies that we had mojo in the first place.
 

Islesfan22

Registered User
Jan 15, 2013
6,768
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Rockland
Modric is the best central midfield I have ever seen. I’m in my 40s so I have watched football since the 80s. Rikaard Redondo Pirlo Xavi all great but for me Modric was the best. The biggest fall for me is Romania. They had a really good team in 94 and a very good team in 98 as well. Hagi was superb but they have not come close to a player like him since. Romania had a pretty good under21 team recently so maybe they finally have a good generation coming.
 

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