Could Waterloo support the OHL??

[Sidekick]

Just moving the conversation that was intermittently happening in the Flint thread to a new thread.



Yesterday, 03:52 PM #30

Storm99


It really is a shame the Rangers will never allow a team in Waterloo. A little tweak to the Rec Centre and I think it would work. I feel like they would get enough fans to support it also



Today, 01:40 PM #33

frontsfan2005



The Waterloo Rec Centre would be a great place for an OHL team. Needs a little work, but not a bad seat in the place. I think it seats about 4000? But yes, no way the Rangers would allow a team there.

It's too bad a place like Brantford doesn't have an OHL ready arena, I think a team would draw well there. Would be great to get Gretzky involved somehow, and Brantford 99ers is an awesome name that their Jr. B team uses.



Today, 02:41 PM #34

bobber



When they were working on the Aud adding the new section they held exhibition games in the Rec Centre. Probably less than 2000 showed up and they were mostly Ranger fans. Where were all the Waterloo OHL fans? Also the Storm have a say in whether a team locates in the area not just the Rangers. It's one spoiled person that married into a rich family that pushes the idea.



Today, 03:09 PM #37

frontsfan2005



To be fair, wasn't the Rangers fan appreciation BBQ located in a totally different area of Waterloo that year, not at the arena? Not too many people went to both, and most people are going to take their kids to the BBQ over a meaningless hockey game against I'm assuming the Brampton Battalion.

As for the other games, didn't Kitchener play a QMJHL based team there? Not too many road fans are going to that one. And approximately 2000 for an exhibition game that I assume most season ticket holders weren't going to bother attending isn't bad considering the circumstances. If Guelph or London came to town, it'd draw a lot better, but Royun-Noranda?



Today, 03:28 PM #38

Ward Cornell


Not sure why Waterloo constantly keeps coming up from out-of-towners and no one from Waterloo?
When Mr Fiddler first came up with this idea most ppl interviewed thought it was a lame-brain idea. Some of the Waterloo
city councellors somewhat supported it in theory only it for public relations but it was considered too seriously by them!
The Rangers allowed Guelph into the OHL even though they are in Kitchener's territory, not sure how or why they have to let Waterloo in.
Just because is a separate city by name only I would bet most of Wloo residents think of the Rangers as their own.

Hey, why not another team in London they have approximately 50,000 more residents than Kitchener and Wloo combined??
...Makes about the same amount of sense.



Today, 05:52 PM #42

frontsfan2005



Why are you omitting Cambridge? The population of Kitchener, Cambridge and Waterloo is bigger than London and area. They are all served by the same transit service, and are part of the same metropolitan area by the Canadian census. If London had a second OHL ready arena available (eg if St. Thomas had one), I'm sure there would be rumours and interest by someone. Now I'm not saying the Rangers have to let Waterloo have a team, understandably that is Rangers territory since the Rec Centre is what, five or so kilometers away. What people are saying is that two teams in a combined population of over 500,000 would probably draw pretty good in a city that loves its OHL hockey.

And does anyone know what territorial rights an OHL team has? I'm not sure how the Rangers "let" Guelph have a team when in 1982 Guelph was a city of over 70,000 and has no connections to Kitchener (unlike Waterloo). I'm sure if it came down to it, the potential Guelph Platers ownership group in the early 80's would have fought, and probably won, an OHL territorial dispute with the Rangers.

I know the NHL has an 80 km radius, what is the OHL rule? Did Brantford need permission from Hamilton in the 70s? Or Belleville-Kingston in the 80's? Detroit-Windsor in the 90's? If someone wanted to put a team in Brampton again, would they need Mississauga's permission? Even so, the NHL rule isn't set in stone.

BTW, I've lived in Kitchener, and Guelph, so I'm not really an "out of towner".



Today, 07:12 PM #43

Rangersfansince99



I do the media for the Waterloo Siskins and as much as I would love to see a team there it wont happen.

1) Even with the Rangers Veto, Rangers STH are having a hard time giving tickets away. The rangers as much as they may sell out, are lucky to get 6800 most nights. Leaving quite a few empty seats. The fan support for hockey in Waterloo Region seams to be going down. I mean maybe a new team sparks it back up but that alone is risky

2) The Siskins Jr B team only averages around 250 people a game. When they play teams like Elmira and Stratford, the home crowd is normally out numbered.

Click to read more...

 

[watcherofhockey]

Could they? It's not a slam dunk, but I would lean towards yes.

Will they ever have an opportunity? I sincerely doubt it. Unless Kitchener is getting a big fat royalty cheque for letting another team into their market, I really can't see why the Rangers would ever let something like this come to fruition. It's unfortunate, but that's the economics of sports and you can't fault Kitchener for that.

 

[CharlieGirl]

I honestly don't think it would fly, even if the Rangers chose to allow another team to take up residence so close by.

I'd guess that half of the Rangers season ticket holders are from Waterloo, and the chance of a majority switching allegiances is slim. In addition, with the expansions to the Aud in the last few years, it's not hard to get tickets to most games, so Waterloo wouldn't benefit from that.

The topic comes up every few years, gets shot down, and goes away temporarily. Kitchener has no reason to allow a team to encroach on their business.

 

[bobber]

I believe it's not just the Rangers that are encroached on its also the Storm. The Fiddler keeps bringing it up and blaming it on Bienkowski. As I said before when they played exhibition games in Waterloo they showed no interest. If the Fiddler was so adament about having a team in Waterloo he and his councilor buddy Melissa Durall would have brought out all their supporters. Doubt either one showed up at a game. That was their opportunity to show Waterloo meant business and both failed miserably. Some people marry into money and want to buy toys I guess.

 

[frontsfan2005]

I would be surprised if Guelph was against a team in Waterloo. I don't think very many people at all attend games in Guelph from Waterloo, unless if the Rangers are in town. I have never seen Guelph Storm advertising in Waterloo. The Storm would probably be ok with it, it'd be another close by team, a quick road trip, and at games in Guelph, I'm sure the Waterloo fans would fill the Sleeman Centre, similar to what Ranger fans usually do. Guelph has no market in Waterloo, they focus in drawing fans in from Fergus, Orangeville, Erin.

If Cambridge wanted a team, I could see Guelph put up more of a fight, but Waterloo? No chance.

 

[bobber]

I would be surprised if Guelph was against a team in Waterloo. I don't think very many people at all attend games in Guelph from Waterloo, unless if the Rangers are in town. I have never seen Guelph Storm advertising in Waterloo. The Storm would probably be ok with it, it'd be another close by team, a quick road trip, and at games in Guelph, I'm sure the Waterloo fans would fill the Sleeman Centre, similar to what Ranger fans usually do. Guelph has no market in Waterloo, they focus in drawing fans in from Fergus, Orangeville, Erin.

If Cambridge wanted a team, I could see Guelph put up more of a fight, but Waterloo? No chance.

Obviously you know little about the area. Kitchener and Waterloo are joined at the hip. A good portion of STH are from Waterloo. They already go to the Storm games. Just so you understand there is no difference between the fans from Kitchener and Waterloo. They are one and the same.

 

[frontsfan2005]

Obviously you know little about the area. Kitchener and Waterloo are joined at the hip. A good portion of STH are from Waterloo. They already go to the Storm games. Just so you understand there is no difference between the fans from Kitchener and Waterloo. They are one and the same.

No kidding KW are joined at the hip, but what does that have to do with the Guelph Storm and Waterloo? I do know that there is no Guelph Storm presence in Kitchener and Waterloo, so why exactly would Guelph be against a team in Waterloo? I highly doubt the Storm have very many STH from Waterloo. They try to draw from Wellington County (Fergus, Arthur, Mt. Forest, Elora) and near by cities like Orangeville. They don't do any marketing what so ever in Waterloo, and very little in Cambridge (they did have a training camp and I believe a pre-season game in Galt before, probably because Scott Walker is from there).

As for the Rangers, obviously they have a good chunk of fans from Waterloo, and even if Waterloo got an OHL team, I don't think many would switch over. But there is quite a few people in KW that don't go to OHL games at all, as the only seats usually available are up in the reds or the new blue seats where you have a beam obstructing your view. A lot of people won't go to a hockey game unless if they can get a good seat, and most good seats in Kitchener are already held by season ticket holders. Those are the people the Waterloo team would attract, the ones who can't get a good season ticket in Kitchener and want to watch OHL hockey. I don't see many Rangers fans giving up season tickets for a new Waterloo team.

If Owen Sound can support a team comfortably with a population base of 20,000-30,000 in a 3500 seat arena, I'm sure the Rangers would be fine if Waterloo for some reason was allowed to have a team, even if Waterloo took half of the Rangers fan base away (which they wouldn't), they'd still have approximately 250,000 people to draw from, which alone is bigger than most OHL cities. If Waterloo could even get 10-15% of Waterloo Region behind them, which is a realistic number, they'd have a comparable fan base to a number of OHL cities that do quite well (Owen Sound, North Bay, Belleville).

With Waterloo Region expected to be well over 700,000 people by 2030, don't expect the rumours and questioning if the City of Waterloo can support a team of it's own to stop anytime soon.

 

[bobber]

Couple of things. First my son has seasons tickets in the new section and the beam doesn't obstruct any ones view so you are wrong on that point. Secondly I think if you check you will find the Storm have some say in whether another team comes into the area.They do have fans from KW that attend games also. Again its a business. If you owned a franchise would you be happy if they opened another across the road? There are really only two people that really want a team in Waterloo that I can see. The Fiddler and you for what ever reason. Keep trying. Dreams do come true.

 

[OHLFan90]

No kidding KW are joined at the hip, but what does that have to do with the Guelph Storm and Waterloo? I do know that there is no Guelph Storm presence in Kitchener and Waterloo, so why exactly would Guelph be against a team in Waterloo? I highly doubt the Storm have very many STH from Waterloo. They try to draw from Wellington County (Fergus, Arthur, Mt. Forest, Elora) and near by cities like Orangeville. They don't do any marketing what so ever in Waterloo, and very little in Cambridge (they did have a training camp and I believe a pre-season game in Galt before, probably because Scott Walker is from there).

As for the Rangers, obviously they have a good chunk of fans from Waterloo, and even if Waterloo got an OHL team, I don't think many would switch over. But there is quite a few people in KW that don't go to OHL games at all, as the only seats usually available are up in the reds or the new blue seats where you have a beam obstructing your view. A lot of people won't go to a hockey game unless if they can get a good seat, and most good seats in Kitchener are already held by season ticket holders. Those are the people the Waterloo team would attract, the ones who can't get a good season ticket in Kitchener and want to watch OHL hockey. I don't see many Rangers fans giving up season tickets for a new Waterloo team.

If Owen Sound can support a team comfortably with a population base of 20,000-30,000 in a 3500 seat arena, I'm sure the Rangers would be fine if Waterloo for some reason was allowed to have a team, even if Waterloo took half of the Rangers fan base away (which they wouldn't), they'd still have approximately 250,000 people to draw from, which alone is bigger than most OHL cities. If Waterloo could even get 10-15% of Waterloo Region behind them, which is a realistic number, they'd have a comparable fan base to a number of OHL cities that do quite well (Owen Sound, North Bay, Belleville).

With Waterloo Region expected to be well over 700,000 people by 2030, don't expect the rumours and questioning if the City of Waterloo can support a team of it's own to stop anytime soon.

Keep in mind Owen Sound Attack are legit the only hockey fans can watch with out driving for a few hours. Where as Waterloo is 6 mins from The Aud and 25 away from Sleeman.

Waterloo can't support a team. I They had a perfect chance to prove it while the Aud renovations were going on and the Rangers played there exibition game in Waterloo. Only 2000 fans showed up, 80% of them were rangers season ticket holders who had free admission. I mean even the Rangers fan fest in Waterloo drew really poorly.

They have a fine arena, but any team playing second fiddle to a team like the Rangers that mean so much to the community will not draw well. I would consider Cambridge before Waterloo. Only difference is Waterloo has an arena they can make due with.

I

 

[Macker88]

Could Cornwall Support the OHL,

http://overtimesportsnation.com/ohl-expansion-cornwall/

Waterloo, Chatham, Buffalo and a few others will also be discussed in the coming days.

 

[storm2storm]

Guelph's team moved to Kitchener. When Guelph got a team back, Kitchener really had to say yes cause they got their team from guelph in first place. if they said no, poop would hit the fan!

 

[Bjorn Le]

Keep in mind Owen Sound Attack are legit the only hockey fans can watch with out driving for a few hours. Where as Waterloo is 6 mins from The Aud and 25 away from Sleeman.

Waterloo can't support a team. They had a perfect chance to prove it while the Aud renovations were going on and the Rangers played there exibition game in Waterloo. Only 2000 fans showed up, 80% of them were rangers season ticket holders who had free admission. I mean even the Rangers fan fest in Waterloo drew really poorly.

They have a fine arena, but any team playing second fiddle to a team like the Rangers that mean so much to the community will not draw well. I would consider Cambridge before Waterloo. Only difference is Waterloo has an arena they can make due with.

I

This really doesn't mean anything. Like other people have said. Kitchener isn't just Kitchener's team, its' Waterloo's team and to a lesser extent Cambridge's as well. Waterloo and Kitchener are for all intents and purposes the same city (though if you were looking at snow removal and street light luminosity I wouldn't blame you for thinking I'm crazy...why does Westmount get darker/snowier as soon as you see that Waterloo sign), the Rangers are as supported by Waterloo as they are by Kitchener. I don't think people failing to show up to Rangers games at the Rec Centre is indicative of people in Waterloo's attitudes towards hockey. I know more STHs from Waterloo as I do ones from Kitchener.

A Waterloo OHL team certainly wouldn't go under. Would they do as well as Kitchener? No way, but could they be economically viable (as in they're not bleeding a few million every year), probably. Are they viable enough to have to pay fees to Kitchener every year for literally being placed right next door? Probably not. Hypothetically if Guelph and Kitchener didn't care, a Waterloo team would likely be fine if small market. If Kitchener is doing well there is an insane desire for junior hockey in Waterloo Region. Everyone talks about it.

 

[Macker88]

Waterloo doesn't make sense.. plain and simple. I don't even know why there is a debate here.

While you may be right in saying the fact that Waterloo didn't draw well for a pre-season game isn't indicative of how they would draw if they have a team full time. It was an opportunity for fans to sell out the arena and really show their desire for their own OHL club. If Im dying for an OHL club in my city I support exhibition games, open practices, fan fests.

Why put a team 6 minutes away from the Aud, why put a team 25 minutes away from Guelph. 3 teams in a 30 minute radius.. no matter the desire or fan base, just doesn't seem smart. Kitchener and Guelph would lose fans, Waterloo would probably average 2000 a game. Now your making a team like Kitchener who has great attendance lose season ticket holders, your making Guelph less successful in drawing fans all so a team could also have relative success at best ?

You go from 1 very successful team and 1 fairly successful team (attendance wise) to 1 team likely drawing slightly above average, and two teams struggling. Which considering Plymouth, Belleville, Mississauga, Peterborough and I'm sure a few more teams already struggle attendance wise.

People mention deluding the player base with expansion, I disagree but that's a different topic, but what I'm getting at is if your going to add an expansion club, put it some where there isn't an OHL hockey that people can get to with in 30-45 minutes at least.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Waterloo doesn't make sense.. plain and simple. I don't even know why there is a debate here.

While you may be right in saying the fact that Waterloo didn't draw well for a pre-season game isn't indicative of how they would draw if they have a team full time. It was an opportunity for fans to sell out the arena and really show their desire for their own OHL club. If Im dying for an OHL club in my city I support exhibition games, open practices, fan fests.

Why put a team 6 minutes away from the Aud, why put a team 25 minutes away from Guelph. 3 teams in a 30 minute radius.. no matter the desire or fan base, just doesn't seem smart. Kitchener and Guelph would lose fans, Waterloo would probably average 2000 a game. Now your making a team like Kitchener who has great attendance lose season ticket holders, your making Guelph less successful in drawing fans all so a team could also have relative success at best ?

You go from 1 very successful team and 1 fairly successful team (attendance wise) to 1 team likely drawing slightly above average, and two teams struggling. Which considering Plymouth, Belleville, Mississauga, Peterborough and I'm sure a few more teams already struggle attendance wise.

People mention deluding the player base with expansion, I disagree but that's a different topic, but what I'm getting at is if your going to add an expansion club, put it some where there isn't an OHL hockey that people can get to with in 30-45 minutes at least.

I just can't accept that as an argument. Waterloo cannot be separated from Kitchener, they have no reason to show they want a team because they already have a team. If Waterloo got a team people would show up simply because Waterloo Region is a rich area with enough people (how many people needed to make the Rec Centre viable, 1500? 2000?) willing to spend $20 to watch high level hockey. I don't think Kitchener attendance means all that much because Kitchener's been a pretty terrible team since Landeskog's departure. Not going to sell out (but Kitchener still does extremely well) when your teams haven't been very good or even all that exciting. The Kitchener Rangers are as much the Waterloo Region Rangers as they are Kitchener Rangers. I don't think the appetite for junior hockey fan fests really exists that much anyway. If the Rangers took a survey, asking everyone who walked in the door where they lived, I'd bet the numbers would be proportional to city sizes, if not a little more heavily weighed towards Waterloo. If Kitchener is a junior hockey town (which it is), Waterloo is as well.

I'm not saying Waterloo is viable, they're not viable because of the two teams, I just don't see why they couldn't draw ~1500-2000 a game, which is what an OHL team needs to stay alive. Not saying they should, not saying they will, but in a perfect world where Guelph and Kitchener don't care, they wouldn't be a team that needs to be relocated.

 

[bobber]

Teams that have only 1500-2000 fans will disappear in a hurry I'd the fail to put a decent competitive product on the ice. It's a no brainer. That is why Brampton and the Whalers failed. There are a few others struggling as we speak. Most are privately owned. These owners can only accept a loss for so long before moving to a new location. As I said before the Fiddler from Waterloo that whines in the Record because they won't let him have a toy and Mellisa Durell the councillor that backs him never probably went to a game let alone could recognize a hockey puck. The Storm also are in this area and have seats they can't fill. Won't happen anyway in this life time.

 

[Loosie]

I just can't see Waterloo getting a team. The Rangers have a presence through all the Tri-Cities area. As has been said many times the Rangers are Waterloo's team as much as they are Kitchener's team.

Yes they could support one, but it would hurt both teams by diluting the resources.

Also using an exhibition game as 'a chance for Waterloo to prove' they can have their own team is pure BS. It's an exhibition game..they always have lower attendance.

There also doesn't seem to be a sense that Waterloo residents want their 'own' OHL team...again the Rangers are their team.

 

[OHLFan90]

I just can't see Waterloo getting a team. The Rangers have a presence through all the Tri-Cities area. As has been said many times the Rangers are Waterloo's team as much as they are Kitchener's team.

Yes they could support one, but it would hurt both teams by diluting the resources.

Also using an exhibition game as 'a chance for Waterloo to prove' they can have their own team is pure BS. It's an exhibition game..they always have lower attendance.

There also doesn't seem to be a sense that Waterloo residents want their 'own' OHL team...again the Rangers are their team.

------ I agree with this.

Also using the game. It's not about attendance. It's about the cities reaction to the event. Elmira and Cambridge percentage wise drew better than the Waterloo exhibition game.

 

[bobber]

The point about the exhibition games is the fact that no one showed up with signs or made any noise during that time regarding wanting a team there. There was not a thing in the press from the people that are advocating a new team or in the media. Would you not think they would have used that opportunity to bolster the argument. Instead the were silent. Silence kills.

 

[Macker88]

Agreed Bobber, Like I said if the OHL was thinking about relocating or expanding to my home city I'd be showing up with bells and whistles making noise and showing the passion to have an OHL team. Know one cared when the game was in Waterloo. The City, the Media, the Fans. I think people from Waterloo have come to the realization that The Aud isn't far away, either is the Sleeman Centre, if they want to see junior hockey why not go support one of the other two local teams.

 

[Loosie]

Agreed Bobber, Like I said if the OHL was thinking about relocating or expanding to my home city I'd be showing up with bells and whistles making noise and showing the passion to have an OHL team. Know one cared when the game was in Waterloo. The City, the Media, the Fans. I think people from Waterloo have come to the realization that The Aud isn't far away, either is the Sleeman Centre, if they want to see junior hockey why not go support one of the other two local teams.

People from Waterloo don't consider the Aud to be in another city really. I live in Kitchener down near Fairview mall, and work in Waterloo close to the University (actually right beside the Rec Centre). It takes me 20 minutes to get work which includes dropping my kids off at day care and dropping my wife off at her office. The Aud is fairly central in KW as well it's right off the expressway so it's very easy to get to.

For those that don't know the city, there is no separation between the two cities. It's not like you drive out of Kitchener and into Waterloo passing a vast empty space. You drive down King Street pass the hospital, there's a sign that says 'Waterloo' and then you are in Waterloo now driving past the Sun Life office. On some streets you may live in Kitchener and your neighbour (who you can likely reach out your window and touch their house) is in Waterloo.

 

[frontsfan2005]

Couple of things. First my son has seasons tickets in the new section and the beam doesn't obstruct any ones view so you are wrong on that point. Secondly I think if you check you will find the Storm have some say in whether another team comes into the area.They do have fans from KW that attend games also. Again its a business. If you owned a franchise would you be happy if they opened another across the road? There are really only two people that really want a team in Waterloo that I can see. The Fiddler and you for what ever reason. Keep trying. Dreams do come true.

I personally don't care if Waterloo gets a team, however, I do feel they could support a team easily and they have an arena that is ready for a team. They would be a small market team, but would have a huge population base to draw from. They'd be the Mets compared to the Rangers "Yankees", if they do good, they'd draw well, if not, attendance would struggle, but they'd still be viable. Four home games against the Rangers would sell out, another three when London comes to town, and seven games are already sold out for this non-existent team in a bad year. Guelph would be a good draw too, and Owen Sound fans travel well. Imagine a Kitchener-Waterloo Western Conference final? That would be huge for the Region, and would be awesome for the league.

I'd be very surprised if Guelph had many Waterloo fans. They don't market themselves in Waterloo at all. Most out of town Guelph fans are from places like Fergus and Orangeville, not Waterloo. I'm sure a few do choose Storm games since you can get really good season tickets, but I'd be surprised if it was that many, as numerous people have stated in this thread that the Rangers are Waterloo Region's team.

For a league where the average sized city in the league is roughly 150,000, I think Waterloo Region, which is expected to have over 730,000 residents (about the same size as the metropolitan area of Winnipeg is today) by 2031 according to Stats Canada, would be able to handle a second junior hockey team. Again, think Yankees-Mets. If the Waterloo team ever became elite and the Rangers struggled, think Yankees-Mets in the 80's.