Could Toronto Wind Up With Two 1st Round Picks?

IrishInOntario

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May 18, 2013
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In an extremely deep draft? If Dubas were to play his cards right and trade Freddy Anderson in a year when there are numerous quality FA goalies available, could he get a 1st round pick+ and possibly save some money on the backend by signing a goalie in the 3.5-4.5 million range?

Who would have thought when Dubas moved the 1st to get the Marleau contract off the books, that Toronto would only need to move a 3rd line depth winger and a goalie they can't afford to re-sign a year from now, to add two 1st round talents to a system that will need constant talent replenishment on ELCs in order to support the contracts of the big 4 in a multi-year, flat cap environment?

I've become increasingly convinced that the combination of Johnson, Dermott and Toronto's 2nd round picks in 2020 and 2021 are going to be enough to trade for a nice partner for Reilly. If you need another asset for a "bigger name", Liljegren probably gets you there. Toronto can get the other RHD via free agency.

If you can upgrade your defense with Johnson, two 2nd round picks and you can return additional picks or prospects via the Anderson and Dermott moves... And still get to draft twice in the first round of this draft and possibly save some important cap space, that feels like a homerun to me... Especially as it relates to assett management and addressing needs.
 

kb

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In an extremely deep draft? If Dubas were to play his cards right and trade Freddy Anderson in a year when there are numerous quality FA goalies available, could he get a 1st round pick+ and possibly save some money on the backend by signing a goalie in the 3.5-4.5 million range?

Who would have thought when Dubas moved the 1st to get the Marleau contract off the books, that Toronto would only need to move a 3rd line depth winger and a goalie they can't afford to re-sign a year from now, to add two 1st round talents to a system that will need constant talent replenishment on ELCs in order to support the contracts of the big 4 in a multi-year, flat cap environment?

I've become increasingly convinced that the combination of Johnson, Dermott and Toronto's 2nd round picks in 2020 and 2021 are going to be enough to trade for a nice partner for Reilly. If you need another asset for a "bigger name", Liljegren probably gets you there. Toronto can get the other RHD via free agency.

If you can upgrade your defense with Johnson, two 2nd round picks and you can return additional picks or prospects via the Anderson and Dermott moves... And still get to draft twice in the first round of this draft and possibly save some important cap space, that feels like a homerun to me... Especially as it relates to assett management and addressing needs.
I'm thinking if the Leafs play their cards right and use their fiscal advantage, yes they could end up with more picks. However, Toronto can't really afford to use picks to obtain players because of the cap situation. Freddy definitely won't return a 1st on his own, or it would have already happened.

I actually don't want the big name on D. I want the under the radar D-man, with a corresponding modest cap hit. A solid partner for Rielly - ie: Tanev or Savard. I think that is all they need. Muzzin - Holl, Dermott - Lehtonen is a good 2nd/3rd pair.

I would be looking at taking on players of other teams with similar cap hits to the outgoing players for picks and using that money to essentially "buy" picks, or get a better player with a similar cap hit who is owed more money.
 

IrishInOntario

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May 18, 2013
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I'm thinking if the Leafs play their cards right and use their fiscal advantage, yes they could end up with more picks. However, Toronto can't really afford to use picks to obtain players because of the cap situation. Freddy definitely won't return a 1st on his own, or it would have already happened.

I actually don't want the big name on D. I want the under the radar D-man, with a corresponding modest cap hit. A solid partner for Rielly - ie: Tanev or Savard. I think that is all they need. Muzzin - Holl, Dermott - Lehtonen is a good 2nd/3rd pair.

I would be looking at taking on players of other teams with similar cap hits to the outgoing players for picks and using that money to essentially "buy" picks, or get a better player with a similar cap hit who is owed more money.

I dont think you need a "big name", especially for your second pairing. I think a guy like Manson from the Ducks would be cheaper than some on here think. I think a guy like Mac Weegar from Florida or David Savard / Dylan Demelo via F/A would be affordable partners for Muzzin as well.

As it relates to the Reilly pairing, I think that a Colton Parayko (via) trade, or Chris Tanev via F/A would be good additions. Reilly deserves a trusty, talented partner that compliments him for FFS.

As far as third pairing guys go, I really dislike Justin Holl. I Just do. I would much prefer a Radko Gudas or or Mark Borowiecki type on that pairing. Not just a big body with a long stick, but a guy who sucks to play against.

Moral of the story is that I think you can wind up with a defense core that is something like...

Reilly/Tanev
Muzz/Weegar/Manson/Savard/Demel
Borowiecki/Lehtonen
Sandin

Trade Dermott and Holl for draft picks, and get tougher, harder to play against and keep your 1st round pick (and try to add a second one), unless a Parayko type D-man is available to team up with Reilly.
 
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Buds17

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Andersen doesn't have the term and RFA year left on his deal like Kapanen does. Andersen would arguably occupy a greater role though. That could/should very well be worth a first or more in return.
 

meefer

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I'm thinking if the Leafs play their cards right and use their fiscal advantage, yes they could end up with more picks. However, Toronto can't really afford to use picks to obtain players because of the cap situation. Freddy definitely won't return a 1st on his own, or it would have already happened.

I actually don't want the big name on D. I want the under the radar D-man, with a corresponding modest cap hit. A solid partner for Rielly - ie: Tanev or Savard. I think that is all they need. Muzzin - Holl, Dermott - Lehtonen is a good 2nd/3rd pair.

I would be looking at taking on players of other teams with similar cap hits to the outgoing players for picks and using that money to essentially "buy" picks, or get a better player with a similar cap hit who is owed more money.

I don't know that this can be assumed. We're hearing more often that a good number of teams will not be able to spend to the cap. To what degree they can't is guesswork at this point, but I'm sure the organization is doing its best to guesstimate the situations that exist throughout the league. A quick trade might have realized a 2nd round pick for Freddie, or a comparable player at a dollar cost we can assume, but that the other team prefers to avoid? By waiting and performing as much diligence towards who the weakest teams are, do we increase our leverage and return?
 
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7even

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Freddy makes $5M towards the floor but is owed only $1M in real dollars, while also being one of the better goalies on the planet. With half of the league if not more broke, that's sneakily very valuable.

What the hell do I want another first round pick for tho, unless you can flip them for Colton Parayko or something
 

Leaffan1991

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Oct 22, 2016
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I dont think you need a "big name", especially for your second pairing. I think a guy like Manson from the Ducks would be cheaper than some on here think. I think a guy like Mac Weegar from Florida or David Savard / Dylan Demelo via F/A would be affordable partners for Muzzin as well.

As it relates to the Reilly pairing, I think that a Colton Parayko (via) trade, or Chris Tanev via F/A would be good additions. Reilly deserves a trusty, talented partner that compliments him for FFS.

As far as third pairing guys go, I really dislike Justin Holl. I Just do. I would much prefer a Radko Gudas or or Mark Borowiecki type on that pairing. Not just a big body with a long stick, but a guy who sucks to play against.

Moral of the story is that I think you can wind up with a defense core that is something like...

Reilly/Tanev
Muzz/Weegar/Manson/Savard/Demel
Borowiecki/Lehtonen
Sandin

Trade Dermott and Holl for draft picks, and get tougher, harder to play against and keep your 1st round pick (and try to add a second one), unless a Parayko type D-man is available to team up with Reilly.

I like that D lineup a lot
 

IrishInOntario

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May 18, 2013
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that pkg of dermott and johnson wont get you a 1st.

No, you're hoping to get a 1st in a deal for Anderson, even if you have to throw something else in to get there. I think it would be an enormous cpup for Toronto to wind up with twon1st round picks in this draft.
 

bodechek

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Why would anyone spend a first round pick in a free agent market that has a number of available goalies? Some of them such as Crawford have proven what it takes to win a Stanley Cup. Lehner was in the playoffs and was impressive. If Dubas can get that, I will be very shocked. Considering that Freddy will be a UFA after next season, with no gaurantee of sign with the team he would be traded to.
 

meefer

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Why would anyone spend a first round pick in a free agent market that has a number of available goalies? Some of them such as Crawford have proven what it takes to win a Stanley Cup. Lehner was in the playoffs and was impressive. If Dubas can get that, I will be very shocked.

I don't know that any team would spend a 1st, but there's a good amount of talk that many teams are financially in trouble. Fred, at $1M next year, is: a) a good goalie, and b) might be the best value tender in the league next year. That's worth something special in my view.
 

egd27

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In an extremely deep draft? If Dubas were to play his cards right and trade Freddy Anderson in a year when there are numerous quality FA goalies available, could he get a 1st round pick+ and possibly save some money on the backend by signing a goalie in the 3.5-4.5 million range?

I think you answered your own question.

In an extremely deep, when there are numerous quality FA goalies available, why does another GM give up a 1st for a year of Freddy Andersen?

Why not just sign one of the FA's and save the asset?
 

The Iceman

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Sep 22, 2007
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I think you answered your own question.

In an extremely deep, when there are numerous quality FA goalies available, why does another GM give up a 1st for a year of Freddy Andersen?

Why not just sign one of the FA's and save the asset?

There are 4 million reasons why. Top goalie, $1 million salary = In Demand.
 
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hotpaws

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Nov 21, 2009
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Why would anyone spend a first round pick in a free agent market that has a number of available goalies? Some of them such as Crawford have proven what it takes to win a Stanley Cup. Lehner was in the playoffs and was impressive. If Dubas can get that, I will be very shocked. Considering that Freddy will be a UFA after next season, with no gaurantee of sign with the team he would be traded to.
I was thinking the same thing ,

- glut of goalies
- trade Freddie for a 1st
- sign a better goalie for cheaper

don't know why people don't think the team interested in Freddie wouldn't just sign the same goalie we would but instead waste assets to acquire Freddie
 
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Legion34

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Jan 24, 2006
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Why would anyone spend a first round pick in a free agent market that has a number of available goalies? Some of them such as Crawford have proven what it takes to win a Stanley Cup. Lehner was in the playoffs and was impressive. If Dubas can get that, I will be very shocked. Considering that Freddy will be a UFA after next season, with no gaurantee of sign with the team he would be traded to.

money.
 

Mess

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In an extremely deep draft? If Dubas were to play his cards right and trade Freddy Anderson in a year when there are numerous quality FA goalies available, could he get a 1st round pick+ and possibly save some money on the backend by signing a goalie in the 3.5-4.5 million range?

Who would have thought when Dubas moved the 1st to get the Marleau contract off the books, that Toronto would only need to move a 3rd line depth winger and a goalie they can't afford to re-sign a year from now, to add two 1st round talents to a system that will need constant talent replenishment on ELCs in order to support the contracts of the big 4 in a multi-year, flat cap environment?

I've become increasingly convinced that the combination of Johnson, Dermott and Toronto's 2nd round picks in 2020 and 2021 are going to be enough to trade for a nice partner for Reilly. If you need another asset for a "bigger name", Liljegren probably gets you there. Toronto can get the other RHD via free agency.

If you can upgrade your defense with Johnson, two 2nd round picks and you can return additional picks or prospects via the Anderson and Dermott moves... And still get to draft twice in the first round of this draft and possibly save some important cap space, that feels like a homerun to me... Especially as it relates to asset management and addressing needs.

Are the Leafs trying to build up to be a competitive cup winning team now or rebuilding for the future?

Leafs had the #13th overall pick in the draft and as a result of a secondary Kapanen trade now have the 15th instead which is basically moving back 2 draft spots in this draft when you combine the two moves. Since the 13th OV >> 15th overall the return on that combined investment is Evan Rodrigues, Filip Hallander and defenseman David Warsofsky to do that. So it comes down to how much value you see in those players.

Had they kept Marleau, they would still be picking 13th and had they traded Kapanen for futures last year they would have more draft capital then they have now. If the argument was they needed to trade Marleau with 1 year remaining to create cap space for last season to resign Kapanen and to make sure they could remain Cup competitive, then they failed on both accounts because they missed the playoffs and now they traded the player they were trying to protect and keep and all that did was move back 2 spots in the same draft.

Marleau didn't have to go if missing the playoffs was an acceptable outcome because with or without him on the books the outcome was the same, so trading the 1st accomplished nothing. That was a 1 time & 1 year only $6.25 mil cap space recovery benefit for 2019-20 season only and is lost and wasted because the Leafs failed to qualify for the playoffs making it a needless sacrifice that achieved nothing but increased the value of the pick we traded away.

We didn't acquire a 1st round draft pick without strings attached, we simply recovered one a few spots later in the draft to help dampen the impact of the first trade that left us without a 1st round pick.

Andersen could be traded sure, but that is independent as that option (if it exists) would be available in both scenarios regardless. However had Leafs made the playoffs and say advanced to round #2 then we wouldn't be talking about dealing our starting #1 goalie for futures today, but rather talking about re-signing him instead. That is only an outcome again spawned out of team failure and now a force rebuild. There are no guarantees a UFA goalie to save a little cap space if possible will produce better results next year even if it resulted in another 1st round pick like you suggest.

Your excitement is all spawned from a failed Marleau trade, a non playoff season, and below average goaltending forcing change, which is sending Leafs into a draft rebuild process. This is more the silver lining fallout situation then one praising good asset management and addressing needs. IMO
 
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Nineteen67

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3 yrs ago it would have been nice to follow that rebuild plan.

We don’t even know what stage they’re at now. Is it the make a bunch of moves to make the playoffs and save the GM stage or do they need another step back?
 
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ER89

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I'm thinking if the Leafs play their cards right and use their fiscal advantage, yes they could end up with more picks. However, Toronto can't really afford to use picks to obtain players because of the cap situation. Freddy definitely won't return a 1st on his own, or it would have already happened.

I actually don't want the big name on D. I want the under the radar D-man, with a corresponding modest cap hit. A solid partner for Rielly - ie: Tanev or Savard. I think that is all they need. Muzzin - Holl, Dermott - Lehtonen is a good 2nd/3rd pair.

I would be looking at taking on players of other teams with similar cap hits to the outgoing players for picks and using that money to essentially "buy" picks, or get a better player with a similar cap hit who is owed more money.
Man kb, the guy that i would go crazy over is our guy parayko. He is a treat to watch. But you are right, tough to fit in a petro. Sign gudas/demelo/trade for savard etc. can really help the overall defense of the team. Just give mo SOMETHING to work with here.
 
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egd27

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There are 4 million reasons why. Top goalie, $1 million salary = In Demand.

Perhaps.

However, teams with early 1st round picks are not likely to give them up for a one year rental when they are not contenders.

Teams with late 1st round picks are the better teams in the league, have a goalie and are typically close to the cap limit themselves.

I suppose a contending team that is losing their starting goalie to UFA may be interested due to the $1M salary, but IMO it's a long shot.
 
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Mess

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There are 4 million reasons why. Top goalie, $1 million salary = In Demand.

Thanks Lou.

Lamoriello acquired him in trade, and signed him to that contract and now Dubas is trying to deal him for a 1st.

I guess those blaming Lou for Marleau are now the same ones that will be praising him for Andersen of inheriting both situations and contracts, and if one cost the Leafs a 1st, and the other one returns the Leafs a 1st that seems like a net zero sum outcome. :)
 

kb

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Aug 28, 2009
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Thanks Lou.

Lamoriello acquired him in trade, and signed him to that contract and now Dubas is trying to deal him for a 1st.

I guess those blaming Lou for Marleau are now the same ones that will be praising him for Andersen of inheriting both situations and contracts, and if one cost the Leafs a 1st, and the other one returns the Leafs a 1st that seems like a net zero sum outcome. :)
Don't you mean thank you to Pridham - the contract/cap specialist - for structuring it that way?

Your posts being outright wrong (or intentionally/willfully deceptive) just comes so easily, doesn't it?
 

hotpaws

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Nov 21, 2009
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Don't you mean thank you to Pridham - the contract/cap specialist - for structuring it that way?

Your posts being outright wrong (or intentionally/willfully deceptive) just comes so easily, doesn't it?
if your going to ignore the person who negotiated the contract and hand out praise for the team being able to front load deals then the praise should go to Leafs huge fan base for allowing the team to burn cash since front loading deals isn't some genius move
 
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Merrrlin

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Freddy isn't worth that much, for the exact reason we're making him available.
 
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Merrrlin

Grab the 9 iron, Barry!
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Thanks Lou.

Lamoriello acquired him in trade, and signed him to that contract and now Dubas is trying to deal him for a 1st.

I guess those blaming Lou for Marleau are now the same ones that will be praising him for Andersen of inheriting both situations and contracts, and if one cost the Leafs a 1st, and the other one returns the Leafs a 1st that seems like a net zero sum outcome. :)

It's always about Lou and Dubas for you, isn't it?
 

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