WJC: Could Team Canada Jrs beat an AHL/ECHL team?

Zine

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
11,955
1,772
Rostov-on-Don
First, let's remember this is U20, not U18. Second, i think me keeping the Islanders to 10 was a compliment, so thanks.

What you are saying, then, is that Matt Moulson at 27 is so much better than Sidney Crosby was at 17. I beg to differ. And Crosby wasn't even a top player on that team.

On that particular team, in that year, the 18 and 19 year olds were not just kids. They were men playing against kids.

Some 19 year olds are ready.

Question: would four lines of Matt Duchenes beat the Islanders tonight if the goalies were equal in quality?

4 lines of Duchene level players? Really?:facepalm:

No WJC team comes remotely close to having 4 lines of Duchene level players (point/game NHLer). In fact, only 1 player on 2005 team was a point/game player the following 2006 season....Crosby.

C'mon, every single WJC team in history (from every country) would get smashed by an NHL team.
 

magic school bus

***********
Jun 4, 2010
19,415
494
San Jose, CA
the Canadian team would lose 99/100. the AHL players are older and wiser - with more mature bodies physically and mentally.

they would have better fundamentals of the game. forechecking, sealing off the boards, etc.. i'd have to give the AHL team the edge in everything except skill.

i also doubt that the Canadians would be able to wear down bigger bodies with hard checking.

close game for a period or two, but the AHL team wins 4-2, if not by more.
 

Robert604strom

Registered User
May 31, 2010
686
0
Victoria
They would beat every Echl team. And probaly beat 5 of the Ahl teams,the rochester americans,norfolk,abbotsford,the flyers farm club and probaly springfield
 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa

Registered User
May 16, 2009
12,252
1,585
The fact is, no one really has a clue what they are talking about.

On another thread, people were saying how top AHL players would own a team of lesser NHL players.

Now, some people are arguing that all junior teams would get "smashed" by low-level NHL competition.

In short, no one has a clue what they are talking about, and face-palming theoretical scenarios is a way to get out of making good points, and going instead with "I'll make him look foolish so no one asks me to explain much" school of responding.

I made a case for the 2005 team possibly beating the Islanders in an imaginary match-up. I have yet to see anyone post anything credible except their own opinions as to why that could never happen.

As much as people overvalue juniors on typical threads, they WAYYYYY overrate the AHL as a league, in my opinion. There is a reason most of those guys never make it to the NHL. They lack something. Speed, strength, a shot, sense, whatever...things elite junior players from the 2005 team had in spades. The only disadvantage would be experience...a biggie, but not a gamebreaker. We've all seen experience fail.
 

macleod50

Registered User
Apr 24, 2006
8,986
891
Long Island, NY
the Canadian team would lose 99/100. the AHL players are older and wiser - with more mature bodies physically and mentally.

they would have better fundamentals of the game. forechecking, sealing off the boards, etc.. i'd have to give the AHL team the edge in everything except skill.

i also doubt that the Canadians would be able to wear down bigger bodies with hard checking.

close game for a period or two, but the AHL team wins 4-2, if not by more.

This about sums it up. There's no substitute for experience and man strength.

Some people are too enamored with youuuuuuuuuuth.
 

RobertKron

Registered User
Sep 1, 2007
15,410
8,493
The fact is, no one really has a clue what they are talking about.

On another thread, people were saying how top AHL players would own a team of lesser NHL players.

Now, some people are arguing that all junior teams would get "smashed" by low-level NHL competition.

In short, no one has a clue what they are talking about, and face-palming theoretical scenarios is a way to get out of making good points, and going instead with "I'll make him look foolish so no one asks me to explain much" school of responding.

I made a case for the 2005 team possibly beating the Islanders in an imaginary match-up. I have yet to see anyone post anything credible except their own opinions as to why that could never happen.

As much as people overvalue juniors on typical threads, they WAYYYYY overrate the AHL as a league, in my opinion. There is a reason most of those guys never make it to the NHL. They lack something. Speed, strength, a shot, sense, whatever...things elite junior players from the 2005 team had in spades. The only disadvantage would be experience...a biggie, but not a gamebreaker. We've all seen experience fail.

1) The Canadian WJHC team often play warm-up games against CIS teams, and don't beat up on those teams. They often lose. Are you suggesting that CIS hockey is in the same league as the AHL?

2) There's a reason why, even in the AHL, we don't often see full lines of rookies, especially not sub-21 rookies, even if they might be the most skilled guys available. Even if we were to say that a lot of the players on Team Canada could step into the AHL right now (which I'm not even sure would be true), those players would be generally put in a situation where they're supported by veterans. This is why NHL teams sign guys, sometimes even to one-way deals, specifically to play in the AHL.
 

RobertKron

Registered User
Sep 1, 2007
15,410
8,493
First, let's remember this is U20, not U18. Second, i think me keeping the Islanders to 10 was a compliment, so thanks.

What you are saying, then, is that Matt Moulson at 27 is so much better than Sidney Crosby was at 17. I beg to differ. And Crosby wasn't even a top player on that team.

On that particular team, in that year, the 18 and 19 year olds were not just kids. They were men playing against kids.

Some 19 year olds are ready.

Question: would four lines of Matt Duchenes beat the Islanders tonight if the goalies were equal in quality?

You've basically keyed on the whole point right in this post. If age and experience don't count for much, as you're saying, then Crosby should have been a top player on that team.
 

VladNYC*

Guest
In all fairness, KHL team (Spartak) didn't try worth ****....WJC coach Bragin even said as much.

Highlightes of the scrimmage. Hasek's in goal!:D


In all fairness...Spartak doesn't try worth **** in the KHL either. :laugh:
 

ponder

Registered User
Jul 11, 2007
16,928
6,217
Vancouver
Just for fun, here are the 05/06 stats (in the NHL or AHL) of most of the players from the 2005 Canadian WJC team. The 05/06 season started like 9 months after the 2005 WJCs finished, so this should give a pretty good idea of where all these players were at in terms of their ability to compete with AHL/NHL level players.

Forwards:
Sidney Crosby - 102 points in 81 NHL games
Patrice Bergeron - 73 points in 81 NHL games
Jeff Carter - 42 points in 81 NHL games
Ryan Getzlaf - 39 points in 57 NHL games, 33 points in 17 AHL games
Corey Perry - 25 points in 56 NHL games, 34 points in 19 AHL games
Mike Richards - 34 points in 79 NHL games
Andrew Ladd - 11 points in 29 NHL games, 19 points in 25 AHL games
Clarke MacArthur - 53 points in 69 AHL games
Nigel Dawes - 67 points in 77 AHL games
Jeremy Colliton - 53 points in 66 AHL games

Dmen:
Dion Phaneuf - 49 points in 82 NHL games
Brent Seabrook - 32 points in 69 NHL games
Shea Weber - 10 points in 28 NHL games, 27 points in 46 AHL games
Braydon Coburn - 26 point in 73 AHL games
Danny Syvret - 20 points in 62 AHL games


Pretty much every member of the team that dominated the WJCs in January of 2005 was either a star in the AHL or a solid to elite NHL player starting in October of that same year. Obviously this was a ridiculously stacked WJC team since there was no NHL in 04/05 and thus all the older Canadians could participate, but this team certainly would do very well against AHL teams IMO, and would likely do OK against bottom feeder NHL teams too.
 

adsfan

#164303
May 31, 2008
12,621
3,665
Milwaukee
Size, strength, and speed of the AHL game is much higher than the junior game. Assuming they're decent, the AHL team would win a lot more than they lose, IMO.

I think the AHL teams win 8 out of 10 games. The ECHL teams maybe 5 or 6 of 10.
 

BleedingOil

Registered User
Dec 4, 2006
1,866
125
Edmonton
No way folks, maybe the 05-06 team but that's the best U-20 team ever and the best there ever will be. Even that team would likely really struggle. Every player in the Ahl and even the echl were damn good juniors, and by this time they are faster and stronger than they were in junior.
 

Epsilon

#basta
Oct 26, 2002
48,464
369
South Cackalacky
Just for fun, here are the 05/06 stats (in the NHL or AHL) of most of the players from the 2005 Canadian WJC team. The 05/06 season started like 9 months after the 2005 WJCs finished, so this should give a pretty good idea of where all these players were at in terms of their ability to compete with AHL/NHL level players.

Forwards:
Sidney Crosby - 102 points in 81 NHL games
Patrice Bergeron - 73 points in 81 NHL games
Jeff Carter - 42 points in 81 NHL games
Ryan Getzlaf - 39 points in 57 NHL games, 33 points in 17 AHL games
Corey Perry - 25 points in 56 NHL games, 34 points in 19 AHL games
Mike Richards - 34 points in 79 NHL games
Andrew Ladd - 11 points in 29 NHL games, 19 points in 25 AHL games
Clarke MacArthur - 53 points in 69 AHL games
Nigel Dawes - 67 points in 77 AHL games
Jeremy Colliton - 53 points in 66 AHL games

Dmen:
Dion Phaneuf - 49 points in 82 NHL games
Brent Seabrook - 32 points in 69 NHL games
Shea Weber - 10 points in 28 NHL games, 27 points in 46 AHL games
Braydon Coburn - 26 point in 73 AHL games
Danny Syvret - 20 points in 62 AHL games


Pretty much every member of the team that dominated the WJCs in January of 2005 was either a star in the AHL or a solid to elite NHL player starting in October of that same year. Obviously this was a ridiculously stacked WJC team since there was no NHL in 04/05 and thus all the older Canadians could participate, but this team certainly would do very well against AHL teams IMO, and would likely do OK against bottom feeder NHL teams too.

Convenient that you failed to mention the goaltenders, who would have probably been lucky to post .500 save percentages at the NHL level.
 

ponder

Registered User
Jul 11, 2007
16,928
6,217
Vancouver
Convenient that you failed to mention the goaltenders, who would have probably been lucky to post .500 save percentages at the NHL level.
Touche, though Rejean Beauchemin put up a .910 sv% (in 15 games) in the AHL in 05/06, and Jeff Glass was an AHL starter and is now a KHL starter. Plus those guys did make the team over Devan Dubnyk, who was the 14th overall pick in 2004, and a guy with decent NHL potential. Regardless, Canada's 2005 WJC team IMO would have been able to play very competitive hockey against good AHL teams or even bad NHL teams, though obviously the team that year was just ridiculously stacked and way better than most Canadian WJC teams. This year's Canadian WJC team would not be able to compete with AHL teams IMO.
 

SidGenoMario

Registered User
Apr 10, 2009
7,185
97
Saskatoon, SK
Just for fun, here are the 05/06 stats (in the NHL or AHL) of most of the players from the 2005 Canadian WJC team. The 05/06 season started like 9 months after the 2005 WJCs finished, so this should give a pretty good idea of where all these players were at in terms of their ability to compete with AHL/NHL level players.

Forwards:
Sidney Crosby - 102 points in 81 NHL games
Patrice Bergeron - 73 points in 81 NHL games
Jeff Carter - 42 points in 81 NHL games
Ryan Getzlaf - 39 points in 57 NHL games, 33 points in 17 AHL games
Corey Perry - 25 points in 56 NHL games, 34 points in 19 AHL games
Mike Richards - 34 points in 79 NHL games
Andrew Ladd - 11 points in 29 NHL games, 19 points in 25 AHL games
Clarke MacArthur - 53 points in 69 AHL games
Nigel Dawes - 67 points in 77 AHL games
Jeremy Colliton - 53 points in 66 AHL games

Dmen:
Dion Phaneuf - 49 points in 82 NHL games
Brent Seabrook - 32 points in 69 NHL games
Shea Weber - 10 points in 28 NHL games, 27 points in 46 AHL games
Braydon Coburn - 26 point in 73 AHL games
Danny Syvret - 20 points in 62 AHL games


Pretty much every member of the team that dominated the WJCs in January of 2005 was either a star in the AHL or a solid to elite NHL player starting in October of that same year. Obviously this was a ridiculously stacked WJC team since there was no NHL in 04/05 and thus all the older Canadians could participate, but this team certainly would do very well against AHL teams IMO, and would likely do OK against bottom feeder NHL teams too.


BAHAHAHAHA.

GODsby. <3
 

chopkins

Super Bowl Champs
Aug 7, 2009
6,789
0
Vancouver
AHL, no way.
ECHL, probably not. I think it would be a close game though.

The pros have a physical advantage over the Jrs that not even skill could make up for.
 

SpitsOHL89

Registered User
Dec 8, 2009
674
4
Windsor
I remember when I was young and the Windsor Spitfires werent that good so kids I knew would try and tell me that the local Junior C teams could beat them. I looked at them the same the same way i did when I read this post.
 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa

Registered User
May 16, 2009
12,252
1,585
AHL, no way.
ECHL, probably not. I think it would be a close game though.

The pros have a physical advantage over the Jrs that not even skill could make up for.

The whole notion of physical advantage gets mentioned, and then of course everyone jumps on board.

However, as I mentioned before...what is this based upon? We are not talking about a bunch of weaklings that can't climb the rope in gym here.

You guys are living a bit in the past, I think. By 18 or 19, these guys are men, not the little boys at the beach getting sand kicked on them.

Taylor Hall:

b158f9ee4cf9b966a6fa5925c19c.jpeg
 

ponder

Registered User
Jul 11, 2007
16,928
6,217
Vancouver
I remember when I was young and the Windsor Spitfires werent that good so kids I knew would try and tell me that the local Junior C teams could beat them. I looked at them the same the same way i did when I read this post.
Agreed with some teams, but you don't think Canada's 2005 WJC team could compete with AHL teams? We're talking about a team full of players who, 9 months later, were pretty much all either dominating in the AHL, playing well in the NHL, or even dominating in the NHL. The AHLers would be stronger and more experienced, but the 2005 WJC team would be WAYYYYYYYYYY more talented.
 

hammerwielder

Registered User
Jan 6, 2008
205
0
Canada
This thread is reminiscent of all the prognostications before the 72 series that said the Canadian pros would make mincemeat out the Soviet amateurs.

The thing most of you are forgetting is that the WJC team includes players that will never see the AHL because they are too good. Are you seriously suggesting for example that the 05 team would not have beaten most AHL teams at that time?

Fast forward to 09. How about going up against Stamkos et al.?

Then take '10 with Hall, Eberle and the rest.

This team, as a team, would be capable of beating many, if not most, AHL teams. Not every time but on any given night ... they would be a competitive team in that league.
 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa

Registered User
May 16, 2009
12,252
1,585
If they were too good for the AHL, they would not be in the WJC.

I completely disagree with this statement. Several players are sent back to junior from their NHL clubs to ensure they get a lot of quality playing minutes, but upon returning to the pros a year later, make the jump right over the minors and become day-to-day NHLers.

Meanwhile, the vast percentage of AHL players never make the jump at all because they are not good enough.
 

jekoh

Registered User
Jun 8, 2004
4,416
4
I completely disagree with this statement. Several players are sent back to junior from their NHL clubs to ensure they get a lot of quality playing minutes, but upon returning to the pros a year later, make the jump right over the minors and become day-to-day NHLers.
A year later.

Seriously, who from the 2011 WJC team is too good for the AHL right now?
 

Zine

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
11,955
1,772
Rostov-on-Don
Just for fun, here are the 05/06 stats (in the NHL or AHL) of most of the players from the 2005 Canadian WJC team. The 05/06 season started like 9 months after the 2005 WJCs finished, so this should give a pretty good idea of where all these players were at in terms of their ability to compete with AHL/NHL level players.

Forwards:
Sidney Crosby - 102 points in 81 NHL games
Patrice Bergeron - 73 points in 81 NHL games
Jeff Carter - 42 points in 81 NHL games
Ryan Getzlaf - 39 points in 57 NHL games, 33 points in 17 AHL games
Corey Perry - 25 points in 56 NHL games, 34 points in 19 AHL games
Mike Richards - 34 points in 79 NHL games
Andrew Ladd - 11 points in 29 NHL games, 19 points in 25 AHL games
Clarke MacArthur - 53 points in 69 AHL games
Nigel Dawes - 67 points in 77 AHL games
Jeremy Colliton - 53 points in 66 AHL games

Dmen:
Dion Phaneuf - 49 points in 82 NHL games
Brent Seabrook - 32 points in 69 NHL games
Shea Weber - 10 points in 28 NHL games, 27 points in 46 AHL games
Braydon Coburn - 26 point in 73 AHL games
Danny Syvret - 20 points in 62 AHL games


Pretty much every member of the team that dominated the WJCs in January of 2005 was either a star in the AHL or a solid to elite NHL player starting in October of that same year. Obviously this was a ridiculously stacked WJC team since there was no NHL in 04/05 and thus all the older Canadians could participate, but this team certainly would do very well against AHL teams IMO, and would likely do OK against bottom feeder NHL teams too.


They'd do OK against NHL bottom feeders?

Take note that only 2 members of the 2005 WJC defense were good enough to be NHL regulars the following 2006 season. Combine that with having a 19 y.o. Jeff Glass in net and the results would not be pretty vs NHL teams.
 

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