Could Jack Eichel become hockey's Tommy John?

[Frank Drebin]

Thats great and all and if Eichel believes the surgery will be this great for him he can put the remaining $50m on his contract on the table to prove it.

It's a bit more complex than that, don't you think? Every surgery has risks, even the traditional disk fusion. It's bordering on a human rights issue where he's basically being forced to do something to his body that he doesn't want to.

Fwiw, I don't follow ufc at all but a chris weidman had the same artificial disk surgery a few years ago.

 

[Frank Drebin]

He's not an artificial disk surgeon, he is just a neurosurgeon who has performed a multitude of surgeries in his career including both of the options for Eichel and thinks one is better than the other.

Haha if you perform artifical disk surgeries you're not an artificial disk surgeon?

Obviously my summary was very surface level.

 

[awegrzyn]

No. He clearly should retire. He gave Buffalo his neck.

 

[serp]

It's a bit more complex than that, don't you think? Every surgery has risks, even the traditional disk fusion. It's bordering on a human rights issue where he's basically being forced to do something to his body that he doesn't want to.

Fwiw, I don't follow ufc at all but a chris wideman had the same artificial disk surgery a few years ago.

He can get his surgery right now if he was willing to breach his contract and potentially riks the remaining money on it. I get why he wants this surgery . I also get why the Sabres won't allow it under his contract. They're fearing that they could be stuck with an invalid they'll have to pay $50m because i its likely insurance companies won't pay here either.

 

[Captain97]

Haha if you perform artifical disk surgeries you're not an artificial disk surgeon?

Obviously my summary was very surface level.

Describing someone as an artificial disk surgeon is disenguous when it's a small component of their job.

My job isn't power point designer because I design and give presentations it's one of the 50 things I do along with, program development, statistics work, econic analysis, etc.

In this case you are implying bias by calling him that suggesting he has some form of gain by this surgery becoming more common when he can perform both of the options (what eixhek wants and what the org wants).

So no 1 part of your job doesn't define the title especially when it's creating an appearance of bias to one procedure or the other.

 

[Voight]

I thought insurance paid for injured players?

Their salary yes.

It depends on the policy though. CBJ didn't have much if any coverage when Horton was given a career ending injury, which is why they traded for Clarkson.

 

[Hivemind]

I don't recall any other hockey players needing an invasive operation on their neck (maybe Gary Roberts in the mid-90s?) like Eichel is facing, unlike pitchers who due to the particular strain of their position on the elbow need surgery on that joint relatively often.

This. The reason “Tommy John surgery” is known is because other pitchers followed in Tommy John’s footsteps. It was a relatively common injury for pitchers due to the physical strain on their arms caused by the act of pitching. Doubtful we see the same stream of hockey players with disc replacements following Eichel.

 

[IDuck]

Interesting point OP. While i would echo the rarity of TJ surgery in the "normal" public, spine/disk injury is very common... i dont know anyone who has had TJ surgery that wasn't a baseball play (more specific a pitcher), while i have and im sure many on here have had these types of injuries/surgery... i will tell you right now if i had the option to do it over i would do disk replacement over fusion surgery... and if i could go back to just surgery or no surgery i wouldn't have it at all....anyone who thinks fusion surgery is any better then 50/50 needs to find a different doctor or probably have never had spinal issues.

 

[grentthealien]

Interesting point OP. While i would echo the rarity of TJ surgery in the "normal" public, spine/disk injury is very common... i dont know anyone who has had TJ surgery that wasn't a baseball play (more specific a pitcher), while i have and im sure many on here have had these types of injuries/surgery... i will tell you right now if i had the option to do it over i would do disk replacement over fusion surgery... and if i could go back to just surgery or no surgery i wouldn't have it at all....anyone who thinks fusion surgery is any better then 50/50 needs to find a different doctor or probably have never had spinal issues.

What’s life been like post surgery for you? Obviously everyone’s experience is different but it sounds like you feel that surgery might have left you worse than before?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Interesting point OP. While i would echo the rarity of TJ surgery in the "normal" public, spine/disk injury is very common... i dont know anyone who has had TJ surgery that wasn't a baseball play (more specific a pitcher), while i have and im sure many on here have had these types of injuries/surgery... i will tell you right now if i had the option to do it over i would do disk replacement over fusion surgery... and if i could go back to just surgery or no surgery i wouldn't have it at all....anyone who thinks fusion surgery is any better then 50/50 needs to find a different doctor or probably have never had spinal issues.

Not that it’s very different, but Jake Delhomme had successful TJ surgery. At the time it viewed as mildly risky for a QB.

 

[Panthaz89]

Really quite an interesting story, for those that haven't followed it all that closely. Complete bs that the Sabres have the final say in what kind of surgery eichel gets

I mean he signed the contract he can have his not recommended surgery he just won't get paid because he's not holding up his end of the deal.

 

[Fixxer]

So much for that "never done on an NHL player" surgery.

 

[Kranix]

Didn't Jason Blake have something like this too?

 

[aufheben]

That's terrible logic in medicine, especially when lots of other contact sport playing athletes have and the surgery.

If we only ever do what's conventional I'm medicine we'd still have prescription Cocaune and Heroine for stuff like tooth aches. Conventional medicine isn't always best.

Sounds far superior to me.

Edit: wait they give people painkillers for toothaches all the time.

 

[Captain97]

Sounds far superior to me.

Edit: wait they give people painkillers for toothaches all the time.

Yeah we replaced rubbing cocaine and heroine on your gums with controlled levels of pain killers. Same idea/end game but improved.

Spinal disk fusion vs artificial replacement same idea but newer medicine that is better in most areas of life based on 20 years of info.

 

[North Cole]

What if the Sabres allow him to have the operation he wants and it doesn't go well and he can't play again then don't they have to pay him for 5 years. Maybe they think it's to risky and want to try a more conventional operation.

I'm pretty sure I saw in the other thread that you can get the traditional fusion if the artifical doesn't work.

 

[Legionnaire]

Really quite an interesting story, for those that haven't followed it all that closely. Complete bs that the Sabres have the final say in what kind of surgery eichel gets

Contract law is some grimey shit.

 

[snag]

I would just do whatever surgery I wanted if I were him. He will be the one to live with the outcome for a lot longer than some bullshit contract.

 

[BFLO]

So much for that "never done on an NHL player" surgery.

I don't recall any other hockey players needing an invasive operation on their neck (maybe Gary Roberts in the mid-90s?) like Eichel is facing, unlike pitchers who due to the particular strain of their position on the elbow need surgery on that joint relatively often.

Wesley had ACDF surgery. The type Eichel does not want.

Peyton Manning had ACDF and then broke every QB record in the books 2 seasons later.

Kris Letang had ACDF.

No NHL or NFL player has had ADR surgery.

 

[HansonBro]

This isn't the same thing. A pitcher needs his pitching arm to be perfect or near perfect to do well. There isn't necessarily just one body part a hockey player needs to do well.

Ok bob, I remove you one leg. Your move

 

[threeVo]

 

[Oddbob]

Ok bob, I remove you one leg. Your move

What pitcher had his arm removed? And pitched in the majors again?

 

[MarkusKetterer]

What pitcher had his arm removed? And pitched in the majors again?

Jim Abbott

I’m not sorry for that joke!

 

[HugginThePost]

What’s life been like post surgery for you? Obviously everyone’s experience is different but it sounds like you feel that surgery might have left you worse than before?

I won't speak for anyone but myself, but my surgery changed my life for the better.

I was pretty hard on my body between hockey, dirt bikes and Muay Thai. I broke my lower back and neck in my late teens. By the time I got to my 30's I was in pretty rough shape, but was in the middle of starting a company and had no time to look after it. As a side note, don't do this! Get it looked after, your body will thank you. It will not get better on it's own, I promise you. By the time I hit 40 I was medicating with pills and alcohol to get through the day. At 43, I woke up one morning and couldn't get out of bed because my lower back pain was so bad.

Had to call a friend over to get me to the hospital. A couple MRI's later and within 36 hours I was under the knife. Went in at 07:00 and was all wrapped up by 13:00. They fused L2/3/4 using a new technique developed by a guy here in Houston. All done with robots. That night at 20:00, my PT guy came in and told me we were going for a walk. I called him crazy. But we went for a walk. It was painful getting out of the bed, but once I was upright, it was truly an amazing experience. Won't lie, I had a bit of a break down. Was the first time in 20 years that I wasn't in pain. Fast forward 7 years and I'm still going strong. I was back to a normal life in three weeks. In the gym, back running. It does give me some grief every now and then, but I would do the surgery over again 100/100 times.

Noooooowwwwwwwww.........4 years ago I had C4/5/6 fused. That was a completely different story. I'm not sure I'd do that one again. No, I would. It's just the recovery that was hell. They go through the front (face) to do that surgery. Lot's of cutting. Lots of recovery time. Am I better off having both surgeries, absolutely. But I know people who have had much different results.

I do know that if Eich was to have the same cervical surgery as I did, he won't be playing next season. It took me 6 months to get to a point where I felt somewhat normal. Of course, he's young, rich, and in peak condition.......anything is possible.

 

[hellvetet]

Is Eichel actually hell bent on getting this particular surgery and the Sabres are that strongly against it? If so, there aren't many viable options to consider when looking at the interest of both parties.

1) Sabres stay put and Eichel finally agrees grudgingly. The operation goes well. Eichel probably pouts for a while but should eventually forgive and forget if he gets his health back and plays good hockey.
2) Sabres stay put and Eichel finally agrees. The operation goes somewhat south but Eichel will get healthy enough to play. This scenario most likely kills the relationship.
3) Sabres agree to go with Eichel's preferred operation and he doesn't return to 100 %. I can't see the Sabres front office doing this because it could lose them their jobs. Too many what-if's.
4) Sabres agree to go with Eichel's preferred operation but hedge their risk by negotiating some sort of clause that shares the risk between both parties if Eichel's performance is hampered by the operation.

If this was a more traditional financial transaction with known but impossible-to-measure risk involved, the parties would most likely go with scenario 4. I assume the Sabres would be open to discuss this type of structure. Eichel's agent most likely advises him not to and it might even become a financial risk for the agent as well. Fundamentally, this scenario would lead to negotiating how much a certain portion of your health deteriorating is worth in dollars which could turn very ugly.

Very difficult to imagine a scenario that is viable and doesn't lead to a sour outcome.