Could Hampton Roads support a big 4 sports team?
- Thread starter MMC
- Start date
nope, Norfolk controls that market......look how they've handled pro hockey there.... it's one reason why the regional moniker was discarded
HisIceness
This is Hurricanes Hockey
For a long time, this area used to be the largest metro w/o a major-league team. I believe Las Vegas and Austin both surpassed HR in the '10's but Vegas got the Knights and Austin is getting an MLS franchise, so they might be back to being the largest again.
They've tried before, George Shinn was interested in relocating the NBAs Hornets there in 2001 right after Louisville became difficult to deal with, but there was no arena and he certainly wasn't going to pay to have one built, so New Orleans became the new home. Shinn also tried to get an NHL expansion franchise there in 1997 (Rhinos) but they lost out to Nashville/Columbus/Atlanta/St. Paul. I believe the Expos were linked to Norfolk in 2004, but D.C. was a bigger and wealthier market w/ an MLB vacancy.
In more recent news, the Maloof Brothers looked at VA Beach to relocate the Sacramento Kings in 2012, but IIRC either the NBA shot that down or Seattle came calling, or both, either way that was all for nothing when Ranadive bought them. And, I'm not sure but I've read that a group of Norfolk businessmen tried to get a bid together for an NFL expansion franchise in the 70's that went to Tampa and Seattle. So, it's not for a lack of trying that they haven't gotten anything.
So why haven't they? I don't have all the answers for this one but I would imagine it comes down to a number of issues.
1. There's no arena, and everytime a proposal for one comes up it gets shot down. We had a thread some 2-3 years ago on this board regarding VA Beach trying to get an 18k stadium built that ended w/ the city nixing it because the bids/financial security or whatever got nowhere.
2. The region is a cluster of independent cities all vying to be the "top dog" of the region. Norfolk is probably the most "corporate" of the cities but VA Beach is the largest and the one that brings in the tourism dollars. There seems to be a lot of bickering as to who would get what when it comes to things like stadiums, no one can agree to compromise, it's all or nothing.
3. Is there a lot of disposable income in the region? It seems VA Beach is okay but the rest of the region is questionable at best. There are a few Fortune 500 companies in the region (Dollar Tree, Norfolk Southern), but the economy heavily revolves around the harbor/military. You'd need more than VA Beach residents making up the crowd, and you'd be asking for tourists to make up for those who can afford it but don't want to attend.
4. The infastructure of this region is one large clusterf***. Anyone who has ever been here or lived here probably knows what I'm talking about. For example, to get from Newport News or Hampton or even Williamsburg/Richmond to Norfolk, you have to take the HR Bridge-Tunnel, which is two lanes of I-64 going east/west. If there's an accident in this tunnel, well count on being late to wherever you are going because you aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Ditto the bridge that runs from Portsmouth to Newport News. Those are your two options to get across the Harbor directly.
And finally, with D.C., Baltimore, Raleigh, and even Charlotte within driving-distance, is there an incentive to tap into this market w/ all the challenges/questions regarding the region? Again, it's not like they haven't tried but it seems like there is a reason why the market keeps getting passed up for other markets, over and over again.
I'm not going to say it's impossible, it's a more likely shot than Albuquerque for instance but at this point I think the ship has sailed. They need a lot of 'things', notably an owner/arena/population w/ disposable income, and frankly markets like Austin and Las Vegas can provide that better than what HR seems to do.
They've tried before, George Shinn was interested in relocating the NBAs Hornets there in 2001 right after Louisville became difficult to deal with, but there was no arena and he certainly wasn't going to pay to have one built, so New Orleans became the new home. Shinn also tried to get an NHL expansion franchise there in 1997 (Rhinos) but they lost out to Nashville/Columbus/Atlanta/St. Paul. I believe the Expos were linked to Norfolk in 2004, but D.C. was a bigger and wealthier market w/ an MLB vacancy.
In more recent news, the Maloof Brothers looked at VA Beach to relocate the Sacramento Kings in 2012, but IIRC either the NBA shot that down or Seattle came calling, or both, either way that was all for nothing when Ranadive bought them. And, I'm not sure but I've read that a group of Norfolk businessmen tried to get a bid together for an NFL expansion franchise in the 70's that went to Tampa and Seattle. So, it's not for a lack of trying that they haven't gotten anything.
So why haven't they? I don't have all the answers for this one but I would imagine it comes down to a number of issues.
1. There's no arena, and everytime a proposal for one comes up it gets shot down. We had a thread some 2-3 years ago on this board regarding VA Beach trying to get an 18k stadium built that ended w/ the city nixing it because the bids/financial security or whatever got nowhere.
2. The region is a cluster of independent cities all vying to be the "top dog" of the region. Norfolk is probably the most "corporate" of the cities but VA Beach is the largest and the one that brings in the tourism dollars. There seems to be a lot of bickering as to who would get what when it comes to things like stadiums, no one can agree to compromise, it's all or nothing.
3. Is there a lot of disposable income in the region? It seems VA Beach is okay but the rest of the region is questionable at best. There are a few Fortune 500 companies in the region (Dollar Tree, Norfolk Southern), but the economy heavily revolves around the harbor/military. You'd need more than VA Beach residents making up the crowd, and you'd be asking for tourists to make up for those who can afford it but don't want to attend.
4. The infastructure of this region is one large clusterf***. Anyone who has ever been here or lived here probably knows what I'm talking about. For example, to get from Newport News or Hampton or even Williamsburg/Richmond to Norfolk, you have to take the HR Bridge-Tunnel, which is two lanes of I-64 going east/west. If there's an accident in this tunnel, well count on being late to wherever you are going because you aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Ditto the bridge that runs from Portsmouth to Newport News. Those are your two options to get across the Harbor directly.
And finally, with D.C., Baltimore, Raleigh, and even Charlotte within driving-distance, is there an incentive to tap into this market w/ all the challenges/questions regarding the region? Again, it's not like they haven't tried but it seems like there is a reason why the market keeps getting passed up for other markets, over and over again.
I'm not going to say it's impossible, it's a more likely shot than Albuquerque for instance but at this point I think the ship has sailed. They need a lot of 'things', notably an owner/arena/population w/ disposable income, and frankly markets like Austin and Las Vegas can provide that better than what HR seems to do.
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IU Hawks fan
They call me IU
36% of the state's population is part of DC Metro.
This is why states are irrelevant to these discussions, they're completely arbitrary.
GindyDraws
I will not disable my Adblock, HF
Oh, dear GOD, no!
The Norfolk/Hampton Roads area doesn't have the population to support it, and the area, let alone all of Virginia, still have arenas that are still in the Bronze Age. I just don't see them supporting any major sports franchise.
The Norfolk/Hampton Roads area doesn't have the population to support it, and the area, let alone all of Virginia, still have arenas that are still in the Bronze Age. I just don't see them supporting any major sports franchise.
DaveG
Noted Jerk
HisIceness hit on it nicely
The two biggest challenges are going to be an arena battle that made the situation the Isles were dealing with until recently seem like child's play, and a lack of corporate infrastructure in the area. And, unlike New Mexico which was looked at earlier, there is NOT a shortage of sports options to follow in the region.
MLB? Going to be hard to make a dent with the Orioles and Nats relatively closeby
NBA? DC and Charlotte
NFL? DC, Baltimore, and Charlotte
NHL? DC and Raleigh
MLS? DC and Charlotte
I mean yeah, I get it, it's 3 hours to DC (if traffic's good) or Raleigh, add another couple to Charlotte. But that's still a reasonable enough distance that it's hard to justify putting a team in the market when there's enough of an issue getting the support to even build a stadium.
The two biggest challenges are going to be an arena battle that made the situation the Isles were dealing with until recently seem like child's play, and a lack of corporate infrastructure in the area. And, unlike New Mexico which was looked at earlier, there is NOT a shortage of sports options to follow in the region.
MLB? Going to be hard to make a dent with the Orioles and Nats relatively closeby
NBA? DC and Charlotte
NFL? DC, Baltimore, and Charlotte
NHL? DC and Raleigh
MLS? DC and Charlotte
I mean yeah, I get it, it's 3 hours to DC (if traffic's good) or Raleigh, add another couple to Charlotte. But that's still a reasonable enough distance that it's hard to justify putting a team in the market when there's enough of an issue getting the support to even build a stadium.
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I actually think the area probably *could* support a big four sports team (not MLB), but that for all the leagues there are other, likely better options that will prevent the area from getting a chance.
Hampton Roads is in the top 40 metros for both population and GDP, ahead of a few metros with teams such as NOLA, Memphis, Raleigh, Jacksonville, and OKC, so it probably could do it.
But there are lots of issues that keep it from being attractive enough to actually get a team. Hislceness summarized a lot of them well. The lack of cooperation among the cities is a huge one, plus other relatively nearby markets with teams. Also, the area just isn't growing, so while it has a marginal case now, it seems like other metros are likely to overtake Hampton Roads, further weakening its case.
Hampton Roads is in the top 40 metros for both population and GDP, ahead of a few metros with teams such as NOLA, Memphis, Raleigh, Jacksonville, and OKC, so it probably could do it.
But there are lots of issues that keep it from being attractive enough to actually get a team. Hislceness summarized a lot of them well. The lack of cooperation among the cities is a huge one, plus other relatively nearby markets with teams. Also, the area just isn't growing, so while it has a marginal case now, it seems like other metros are likely to overtake Hampton Roads, further weakening its case.
MMC
Global Moderator
Thank you for the very informative replies. Just by looking at populations, this one always made sense to me but I can see now why it's yet to become a reality. I still hope this area will get a team eventually, but I now have doubts I'll ever see it.
MMC
Global Moderator
If the area were to get a team, which league do you guys think has the highest chance of doing well here?
none of them unless there's an arena involved
HisIceness
This is Hurricanes Hockey
It would probably be the NBA since that's the league that has been involved with the market more than once (Hornets in 2001, Kings in 2012).
If it wasn't for New Orleans having the Smoothie King Center, Shinn very well may have relocated the Hornets there. Louisville was his first option but the mayor was playing hardball w/ financing an arena. St. Louis for whatever reason didn't work out (Blues didn't want to share their building maybe? I don't quite remember the details on that one), and New Orleans was seen as a Football and everything else is second-fiddle town. But Norfolk had the same problem as Louisville, no building and no real plan to get one built w/o a lot of red tape to cut through. So to everyones surprise, New Orleans became the teams new home.
New Orleans actually got the break it needed as did OKC due to extenuating circumstances.....because the Hornets had to vacate NO for a short time....
As someone that vacationed there and been there a lot, Hampton Roads won't get a "big league" team.
If they were to get something, I'd think it would be like the XFL. Otherwise, there's just not enough money as it's a somewhat transplant area with the largest employer basically being the military.
If they were to get something, I'd think it would be like the XFL. Otherwise, there's just not enough money as it's a somewhat transplant area with the largest employer basically being the military.
KevFu
Registered User
Yes, I agree with this and HisIceness.
I think the region COULD support a Big Four team. I just think they won't get the opportunity.
I have proposed an expansion of MLB to 40 teams years after expanding to 32. I will probably see the expansion to 40 in my lifetime, but it doesn't include Hampton Roads at that time.
I probably won't see the expansion to 48 MLB teams in my lifetime, but I do expect Hampton Roads to be part of that expansion.
I probably won't see the expansion to 48 MLB teams in my lifetime, but I do expect Hampton Roads to be part of that expansion.
Hampton Roads was actually a prospective relocation site for the Expos years ago, but Washington was ultimately chosen.
