Cory Schneider or Brian Elliot?

[X-SHARKIE]

Even as a Badger fan and one that received goaltending help from Brian Elliot at the Bill Howard goaltending school, and seeing how great of a guy and how hard he truley works at his craft.

Schneider is the one here. His rebound control is the best in the NCAA, he is patient, he has great legs and anticipates so well. He plays the puck much better too.

Elliot is one of the best goaltenders at any level mechanically. He has outstanding positioning and his lateral mobility is superb. His blocker is strong but his glove isn't up to NHL standards yet IMO.

I'll take Corey Schneider.

 

[Don Draper]

Since when was Schnieder a big name prospect around here? He's almost never mentioned!

As for the question of drafting a goalie in the first round, it's like drafting quarterbacks in the NFL. Yeah a lot of great goalies came from late rounds. But how many more great goalies have come from the first round than the late rounds? How many late round goalies amount to nothing?

There's a reason that some guys go in the first and others go in the seventh.

the difference is, especially now with the new UFA age, goalies rarely reach their potential til their mid 20s, or late 20s even. Its a huge risk hoping a goalie turns into a star by 22-23, justifying spending all that time and money on a goalie.

I think if you look over the cup winning teams over the years, brodeur and Barrasso are the only goalies over the past 20yrs to have been taken in the first round. Thats a fairly telling stat. Not only that goalies are such a crapshoot, but if you can draft more talent at other positions and hope for the best later on.

 

[sunb]

the difference is, especially now with the new UFA age, goalies rarely reach their potential til their mid 20s, or late 20s even. Its a huge risk hoping a goalie turns into a star by 22-23, justifying spending all that time and money on a goalie.

I think if you look over the cup winning teams over the years, brodeur and Barrasso are the only goalies over the past 20yrs to have been taken in the first round. Thats a fairly telling stat. Not only that goalies are such a crapshoot, but if you can draft more talent at other positions and hope for the best later on.

Considering a Stanley Cup-winning team can have one star goalie and that Brodeur and Barrasso-led teams have won the Stanley Cup five times in the span of the last 13 years, I think a 5 / 13 ratio really speaks in favor for teams who have invested a first rounder in goaltending.

And when you consider that Richter was drafted 28th overall (a 1st by today's standards) and Roy was taken at 51st (still relatively high). Highly drafted goalies appear to be game-breakers for 9 of the last 13 Stanley Cup-winning teams.

 

[sunb]

you can draft more talent at other positions and hope for the best later on.

That is ironic coming from an Ottawa fan...

Not meaning to sound offensive but that is a very flawed way of thinking. Every Stanley Cup-winning team for as long as we can remember has had elite goaltending (with the exception of Chris Osgood). You can't just pray that great goaltending will come along. In today's NHL, you have to give something good to get something good. Without paying the price, an elite goalie is unlikely to show up ribboned up on your doorstep Christmas day. As a Vancouver fan, I can tell you that without goaltending, a great team has a little likelihood of going anywhere. Every Stanley Cup contender, whether they're darkhorse candidates like the '94 Canucks, '04 Flames or the '03 Flames or whether they're heavy favorites like the '01 Avs or the '02 Wings, you have to have great goaltending. Maybe investing 1st round picks in goaltending is overpaying but you can't say that this approach is wrong.

 

[Ryan Van Horne]

He has proven himself

Schneider has been a very solid goalie for a good 3 seasons now, once being high school. Elliot has yet to prove himself. With this, I say Schneider in a heartbeat.

I would say that Elliott has proven himself. 1.55 GAA, .938 save percentage, backstopping a team to a NCAA Division 1 national title. Those are some mighty big feathers in his cap. Also, consider Shane Connelly's stats. He's Elliott's backup. When Elliott was injured, Wisconsin struggled mightily. I was curious to see because I was wondering how much Elliott's stats were a product of Wisconsin's defensive system.

Now bear in mind that Connelly was a freshman, but he's hardly a benchwarmer, he played for the U.S. NTDP, so he's no slouch talent wise. Anyway Connelly posted a 2.60 GAA and a .885 save percentage. The Badgers were 3-5 in the games he got decisions.

That tells me that Wisconsin is a good defensive team, but not so good that they can win with anyone in net. They need good and occassionally great goaltending, which they got from Elliott. By the way when Elliott was a freshman, he had a 2.14 GAA and a .912 sae pct. in six games. As a soph, his stats were 1.16 (!) and .945 in in games. He didn't get much playing time behind Bernd Bruckler, but when he did, he played very well. Actually, as a sophomore, his numbers were far superior to Brucklers. Even if you consider that Elliott was probably playing against weaker teams, the difference in their numbers is so large to suggest that it's not the only reason. Wisconsing has had an awesome goalie on their team for three years, but he just got the No. 1 job this season.

Elliott still has some things to prove, but he has proven himself. He's a legitimate NHL prospect, IMHO.

 

[Ryan Van Horne]

Considering a Stanley Cup-winning team can have one star goalie and that Brodeur and Barrasso-led teams have won the Stanley Cup five times in the span of the last 13 years, I think a 5 / 13 ratio really speaks in favor for teams who have invested a first rounder in goaltending.

And when you consider that Richter was drafted 28th overall (a 1st by today's standards) and Roy was taken at 51st (still relatively high). Highly drafted goalies appear to be game-breakers for 9 of the last 13 Stanley Cup-winning teams.

I agree with you that drafting a goalie high is a good thing and not a bad thing. However, we should point out that Pittsburgh did not draft Barrasso, they got him in a trade with Buffalo (for Doug Bodger and Darrin Shannon) which was a shrewd trade by Pittsburgh because it was not a high price to pay for a goalie of Barrasso's calibre.

Organizations should go after elite goalie prospects when they get a chance. However, because of the nature of the position, it is much harder to gauge their upside when they're 17 or 18, than when they're 20 or 21.

That's why I think organizations should draft lots of goalies. It's like diversifying a stock portfolio. You get your blue-chippers and you gamble on a few penny stocks. Some people probably thought Ottawa's ninth-round selection of a junior A goalie -- he was the only player taken by the NHL that year who played junior A in Ontario -- was a waste. Now, the scout who pushed for him on draft day is smiling like a cheshire cat.

However, you can't rely on this. Sometimes, you've got to grab a goalie in the first round. I think when Brodeur slipped to 20th in the first round, it stopped the trend of teams not spending very high picks on goalies. Until then, I think Barrasso was the only top 10 pick.

There have been some top 10 picks on goalies who haven't panned out yet, but there have been many who have worked out. Just because Luongo, Giguere and Biron haven't led their team to Stanley Cups yet doesn't mean the teams overpaid for them by drafting them in the first round.

 

[Don Draper]

That is ironic coming from an Ottawa fan...

Not meaning to sound offensive but that is a very flawed way of thinking. Every Stanley Cup-winning team for as long as we can remember has had elite goaltending (with the exception of Chris Osgood). You can't just pray that great goaltending will come along. In today's NHL, you have to give something good to get something good. Without paying the price, an elite goalie is unlikely to show up ribboned up on your doorstep Christmas day. As a Vancouver fan, I can tell you that without goaltending, a great team has a little likelihood of going anywhere. Every Stanley Cup contender, whether they're darkhorse candidates like the '94 Canucks, '04 Flames or the '03 Flames or whether they're heavy favorites like the '01 Avs or the '02 Wings, you have to have great goaltending. Maybe investing 1st round picks in goaltending is overpaying but you can't say that this approach is wrong.

your thinking is just as flawed as mine. Your argument is based on the stipulation that since great goaltending is the basis for every championship, than your best bet is to draft one in the first round. You are still saying that a goaltender is important to success, like I am, but I am saying that you are just as likely to find talent later in the draft as at the top, which i would say cant be disputed. You bring up ottawa as an example, which is fairly rich, since we have one of the deepest goalie prospect charts in the league. Not one of them were taken inside the first 3 rounds. If you are implying that Ottawa would have been better off drafting a 1st round goalie over the past decade instead of the player they took, well I suggest you go back and look at some of those drafts. Not once was a player anywhere in range to draft without taking a huge flyer. Ottawa is better of drafting the player they did instead of the next rated goaltender everytime. Actually, Ottawas only wasted 1st pick since 92 was on a goalie, so yes, Ottawa does know a thing or two about drafting goaltenders.

 

[DreamCatcher*]

Canucks no.1 priority was to get depth at net at that time of the draft and now if you think u can acquire better talent then tell me who was better after Cory Schnieder?

 

[sunb]

your thinking is just as flawed as mine. Your argument is based on the stipulation that since great goaltending is the basis for every championship, than your best bet is to draft one in the first round. You are still saying that a goaltender is important to success, like I am, but I am saying that you are just as likely to find talent later in the draft as at the top, which i would say cant be disputed. You bring up ottawa as an example, which is fairly rich, since we have one of the deepest goalie prospect charts in the league. Not one of them were taken inside the first 3 rounds. If you are implying that Ottawa would have been better off drafting a 1st round goalie over the past decade instead of the player they took, well I suggest you go back and look at some of those drafts. Not once was a player anywhere in range to draft without taking a huge flyer. Ottawa is better of drafting the player they did instead of the next rated goaltender everytime. Actually, Ottawas only wasted 1st pick since 92 was on a goalie, so yes, Ottawa does know a thing or two about drafting goaltenders.

My stab at Ottawa was a gesture at trying to bring up Ottawa's playoff failures in the past few years due to inept goaltending from Patrick Lalime. Ottawa had amazingly dominant teams for the past half-a-decade but were unable to seriously do any damage in the playoffs since their goaltending usually came up short during crucial games while Toronto and New Jersey's goaltending, consisting of Brodeur, Joseph and Belfour showed up and shut down Ottawa. It is irrelevant how great a team you have unless you have a proven talent between the pipes. As a Canucks fan, I can attest to this fact quite well.

I'm not necessarily trying to promote the notion of grabbing goalies with 1st rounders since I agree the goaltending draft game is a crapshoot. I'm just saying, you have to pay to receive and gambling that somehow a great goalie is just going to appear out of nowhere is an ineffective strategy. If there is a great goaltending prospect, whom you have a lot of confidence in and truly has the potential to be a gamebreaker, it would be wise to draft him, regardless of what round this is in the draft.

 

[sunb]

I agree with you that drafting a goalie high is a good thing and not a bad thing. However, we should point out that Pittsburgh did not draft Barrasso, they got him in a trade with Buffalo (for Doug Bodger and Darrin Shannon) which was a shrewd trade by Pittsburgh because it was not a high price to pay for a goalie of Barrasso's calibre.

Organizations should go after elite goalie prospects when they get a chance. However, because of the nature of the position, it is much harder to gauge their upside when they're 17 or 18, than when they're 20 or 21.

That's why I think organizations should draft lots of goalies. It's like diversifying a stock portfolio. You get your blue-chippers and you gamble on a few penny stocks. Some people probably thought Ottawa's ninth-round selection of a junior A goalie -- he was the only player taken by the NHL that year who played junior A in Ontario -- was a waste. Now, the scout who pushed for him on draft day is smiling like a cheshire cat.

However, you can't rely on this. Sometimes, you've got to grab a goalie in the first round. I think when Brodeur slipped to 20th in the first round, it stopped the trend of teams not spending very high picks on goalies. Until then, I think Barrasso was the only top 10 pick.

There have been some top 10 picks on goalies who haven't panned out yet, but there have been many who have worked out. Just because Luongo, Gigure and Biron haven't led their team to Stanley Cups yet doesn't mean the teams overpaid for them by drafting them in the first round.

I agree. I am actually very reluctant to draft goalies high because of their volatile nature. But I am happy with the Schneider pick.

 

[Don Draper]

My stab at Ottawa was a gesture at trying to bring up Ottawa's playoff failures in the past few years due to inept goaltending from Patrick Lalime. Ottawa had amazingly dominant teams for the past half-a-decade but were unable to seriously do any damage in the playoffs since their goaltending usually came up short during crucial games while Toronto and New Jersey's goaltending, consisting of Brodeur, Joseph and Belfour showed up and shut down Ottawa. It is irrelevant how great a team you have unless you have a proven talent between the pipes. As a Canucks fan, I can attest to this fact quite well.

I'm not necessarily trying to promote the notion of grabbing goalies with 1st rounders since I agree the goaltending draft game is a crapshoot. I'm just saying, you have to pay to receive and gambling that somehow a great goalie is just going to appear out of nowhere is an ineffective strategy. If there is a great goaltending prospect, whom you have a lot of confidence in and truly has the potential to be a gamebreaker, it would be wise to draft him, regardless of what round this is in the draft.

that goes without saying though. Goalies have to be taken at some point, but like running backs, you can find a good one in round 4 just like you can in round one. Might as well draft players with less risk earlier, with the picks that your team is built around. No one can predict goaltending, so taking one in the first round is a huge gamble.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

If I was picking in the top-15 of a draft, I don't think I'd ever pick a goaltender unless I was absolutely certain he was the next Patrick Roy.

The thing is...if you draft a center 4th overall, and instead of becoming a franchise player, he just becomes a solid top-6 guy. Well, that's cool.

But if your 4th overall goaltender can't take you to the Stanley Cup, what was the point? Blown pick.

I agree. I am actually very reluctant to draft goalies high because of their volatile nature. But I am happy with the Schneider pick.

I am, too. Especially when you consider the group of pedestrian defensemen taken after him in the first round that year. But if we'd taken him (or any of the goalies that year), say, 10th, I'd be pissed.

 

[Legionnaire]

Canucks no.1 priority was to get depth at net at that time of the draft and now if you think u can acquire better talent then tell me who was better after Cory Schnieder?

Pogge could be.

 

[DreamCatcher*]

Pogge could be.

I rather have Schnieder, thanks.

 

[hockeyfan125]

I rather have Schnieder, thanks.

he said "could". not "would"

difference.

 

[HFNHL Canadiens]

I rather have Schnieder, thanks.

Pogge : (on the weakest team Canada has had in a couple years) = Gold Medal

Schnieder: (stacked U.S team, favourite to win the tourney) = participation ribbon

Elliott: NCAA Champion, top goalie NCAA award, top goalie in the NCAA playoffs aswell

 

[hockeyfan125]

Pogge : (on the weakest team Canada has had in a couple years) = Gold Medal

Schnieder: (stacked U.S team, favourite to win the tourney) = participation ribbon

did ya watch the US team play?

 

[HFNHL Canadiens]

did ya watch the US team play?

yes, I did and by all means it was not his fault he had an O.K tourney, but I am just saying that Pogge performed better and looked better when i saw him play, Schneider was a little all over the place and seemed a bit shakey at times, while Pogge was very positonally sound and very poised and calm. Its way too early to tell who is the better goalie right now, but based on accomplishments I'd take Pogge right now, but its still way too early to tell imo

 

[AgentNaslund*]

not to sound biased, or anything, but Im not very fimiliar with the name Brain elliot. All CAnuck fans have been hearing is how Schneider have been unblievable in Boston this year, with his shut out streak, and such, and on and on.

 

[buhockey13]

Schneider I've heard (Boston Globe) that he will stay another year at BC so it appears that the NHL is at least still a year off .... but he has a very good (uncanny) ability to not give up bad rebounds... always to the corners or areas free of opposing skaters... elliot I believe is much like Belfour in Dallas, few shots = few goals.

 

[Patty Ice]

Pogge could be.

Another name to throw out there...Thomas Greiss. I'm wondering if he comes over after his season in the DEL. I think there's a good chance.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

I hate to toss out this once again since this is an old thread (yes, I had to do it), but the two players both just finished their first AHL seasons and posted surprisingly similar numbers on far different teams.

Schneider's team, Manitoba, was a lot better and allowed the 3rd lowest goals in the AHL. Schneider had a pretty slow start but caught fire towards the end of the season and posted very good numbers for an AHL rookie. 2.28 GAA, .916 save percentage, 3 shutouts, and 21 wins in 36 games.

Elliott's team, Binghamton, allowed 248 goals. Only 6 other AHL teams allowed more goals. Elliott also had a very slow start but from December on was great until hurting his knee in March. His final numbers were 2.81 GAA, .915 save percentage, 2 shutouts, and 18 wins in 44 games.

One was a first rounder, the other was the second to last pick in his draft. Schneider is a year younger than Elliott. I think Schneider is a great goaltending prospect, but Elliott is really a fine prospect himself but seemingly goes ignored.

/homer talk.

 

[Free Edler]

Schneider's numbers in the second half of the season show hopefully what he's really capable of. Is Elliot going to be in the running for a roster spot in Ottawa this year?

 

[trentmccleary]

Ideally both, because Ottawa has holes at NHL back-up and AHL starter. They could compete against eachother in Ottawa and try to wrest Gerber's perilous grip on the starters job this season (sort of like a lesser version of Montreal's 07-08 season).

Schneider's numbers in the second half of the season show hopefully what he's really capable of. Is Elliot going to be in the running for a roster spot in Ottawa this year?

Elliott was apaprently getting hot down the stretch too until somebody fell on his knee.
Murray said he'd like to see Ellliott play 30 games "straight" (I assume he meant in the first half and not quite literally 30 games straight) in the AHL and then consider bringing him up for 2nd half of the season.

 

[DreamCatcher*]

I hate to toss out this once again since this is an old thread (yes, I had to do it), but the two players both just finished their first AHL seasons and posted surprisingly similar numbers on far different teams.

Schneider's team, Manitoba, was a lot better and allowed the 3rd lowest goals in the AHL. Schneider had a pretty slow start but caught fire towards the end of the season and posted very good numbers for an AHL rookie. 2.28 GAA, .916 save percentage, 3 shutouts, and 21 wins in 36 games.

Elliott's team, Binghamton, allowed 248 goals. Only 6 other AHL teams allowed more goals. Elliott also had a very slow start but from December on was great until hurting his knee in March. His final numbers were 2.81 GAA, .915 save percentage, 2 shutouts, and 18 wins in 44 games.

One was a first rounder, the other was the second to last pick in his draft. Schneider is a year younger than Elliott. I think Schneider is a great goaltending prospect, but Elliott is really a fine prospect himself but seemingly goes ignored.

/homer talk.

Here are statistics of prospect goalies over the last 22 games in the AHL

Top Prospect goalie stats over the last 22 games...

Justin Pogge Toronto Marlies(AHL)[Toronto Maple Leafs]

GP W L OTL SA% GAA SO PLD
22 14 8 0 .910 2.2 3 0

Tuukka Rask* Providence Bruins(AHL)[Boston Bruins]

GP W L OTL SA% GAA SO PLD
22 11 6 2 .908 2.2 1 2

Al Montoya San Antonio Rampage(AHL)[Phoenix Coyotes]

GP W L OTL SA% GAA SO PLD
22 13 7 0 .910 2.4 1 1

Cory Schneider* Manitoba Moose(AHL)[Vancouver Canucks]

GP W L OTL SA% GAA SO PLD
22 16 4 2 .934 1.6 2 0

Ondrej Pavelec* Chicago Wolves(AHL)[Atlanta Thrashers]

GP W L OTL SA% GAA SO PLD
22 13 6 3 .927 2.1 0 0

Pekka Rinne Milwaukee Admirals(AHL)[Nashville Predators]

GP W L OTL SA% GAA SO PLD
22 13 8 0 .907 2.4 3 0

Brian Elliott* Binghamton Senators(AHL)[Ottawa Senators]

GP W L OTL SA% GAA SO PLD
22 10 9 1 .922 2.3 2 1

Steve Mason Kitchener Rangers(OHL)[Columbus Blue Jackets]

GP W L OTL SA% GAA SO PLD
22 17 4 1 .911 2.0 3 0

Leland Irving Everett Silvertips(WHL)[Calgary Flames]

GP W L OTL SA% GAA SO PLD
22 9 11 1 .932 2.2 2 1

Jimmy Howard Grand Rapids Griffins(AHL)[Detroit Red Wings]

GP W L OTL SA% GAA SO PLD
22 7 13 0 .913 2.5 0 2

PLD is Pulled...

/End Thread