OT: Coronavirus XXXII: Pfizer Vaccinations Being Administered in the UK and Soon Canada & the US

[Bryanbryoil]

It'll be interesting to see how well they work for those that get them and what kind of side effects may or may not come to light as the numbers of people that get vaccinated climb into 6 and 7 figures.

Click to read more...

 

[Ol' Jase]

You're not correctly reading the graph.

The ICU section of that graph is the case rate probability that if you are a certain age, and have Covid, that you will end up in ICU. So for instance 60-69 2.5/100 will end up in ICU.

The Death columns are probability of death per covid diagnosis per 100K people.

Three is no column in that graphic that displays the proportion of patients that enter into ICU treatment that either survive or die. AHS, I don't think they are providing that data presently. I mean one can go on case data notes section to see all outcomes. Would take a very long time.
I don't know how to download data like that into a statistical program. Somebody good at Excel could maybe run that.

What the hell are you taking about?? Those are ACTUAL number counts is the first column of every header.

50-59 years olds. 85 ICU admissions. 15 deaths.

That’s not 50-50.

Are we now debating that ICU survival rates for those under 70 are 50%? For real? I had thought this was common knowledge.

 

[Ol' Jase]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calg...apacity-fill-up-with-covid-patients-1.5835846

 

[bellagiobob]

 

[Drivesaitl]

What the hell are you taking about?? Those are ACTUAL number counts is the first column of every header.

50-59 years olds. 85 ICU admissions. 15 deaths.

That’s not 50-50.

Are we now debating that ICU survival rates for those under 70 are 50%? For real? I had thought this was common knowledge.

In the previous thread you'd mentioned that those under 70 are doing quite good.

You're now changing the topic to 50-59 age group specifically? I never specifically referenced that age group. Nor did I state that under 70 was 50-50.

Going back to your prior claim, lets look at 60-69 cohort just for example. 144 in that age cohort admitted to ICU in Alberta. The age Cohort also has had 67 deaths. By no means an insignificant number.

However the ICU and Death columns are mutually exclusive. it is possible that some of those deaths were not in ICU at all.


But, my comment about 50-50 was in regards to the sum of all severe ICU cases. Like the ones that have to be intubated, put in coma. Those don't do well.

It would be nice if AHS released specific data on ICU deaths and recoveries specifically. That graph isn't what you think it is. Its all deaths per age group, in the death section, not just ICU ones, for clarity. Pay attention to the main headings. I can understand the confusion, the bars on the graph should be separated or line barred into different sections. It can be confusing on initial looks.

Anyway I did mention that in the Fall as AHS had more information on treatment modalities that the success rate went up. Alberta was fortunate in that regard as we didn't get the huge amount of cases in the spring like most jurisdictions. We had some more time to prepare, and have had better results.

Overall Alberta has done a better job than comparable jurisdictions keeping deaths down. WE won't know about other toll and calamity and long term effects for quite awhile in this pandemic.

 

[Ol' Jase]

In the previous thread you'd mentioned that those under 70 are doing quite good.

You're now changing the topic to 50-59 age group specifically? I never specifically referenced that age group. Nor did I state that under 70 was 50-50.

Going back to your prior claim, lets look at 60-69 cohort just for example. 144 in that age cohort admitted to ICU in Alberta. The age Cohort also has had 67 deaths. By no means an insignificant number.

However the ICU and Death columns are mutually exclusive. it is possible that some of those deaths were not in ICU at all.


But, my comment about 50-50 was in regards to the sum of all severe ICU cases. Like the ones that have to be intubated, put in coma. Those don't do well.

It would be nice if AHS released specific data on ICU deaths and recoveries specifically. That graph isn't what you think it is. Its all deaths per age group, in the death section, not just ICU ones, for clarity. Pay attention to the main headings. I can understand the confusion, the bars on the graph should be separated or line barred into different sections. It can be confusing on initial looks.

Anyway I did mention that in the Fall as AHS had more information on treatment modalities that the success rate went up. Alberta was fortunate in that regard as we didn't get the huge amount of cases in the spring like most jurisdictions. We had some more time to prepare, and have had better results.

Overall Alberta has done a better job than comparable jurisdictions keeping deaths down. WE won't know about other toll and calamity and long term effects for quite awhile in this pandemic.

Yes. If you are under 70, your chances of surviving ICU admission is not dire. It’s not 50/50. It’s not even close.

The 50-59 age group example was to illustrate how incredibly wrong your statement about ICU care was.

This is just incredible. You are presented real numbers that clearly show you are wrong about your ICU assertions and you can’t even deal with that. Instead, you go on some ridiculous tangent about misunderstanding numbers that aren’t saying what they say or some other baffling word salad.

If some of the deaths weren’t admitted to the ICU, that makes your statements on ICU care even more ridiculous.

Total ICU admissions age under 70 - 332

Total deaths age under 70 - 96

Just with those numbers 28.9%. That doesn’t take into account any deaths that would have no ICU admissions in that range. If there are, that number actually gets better.

This is exactly what you said:

Also "positive patient outcomes" among Covid ICU patients? Again we're not talking about great results there, even with the highly specialized Covid ICU care people are trying to say is so indispensable and such a game changer. I wish it was.

The reality is if you enter ICU with Covid its not a great prognosis even with the best care. If that even exists HERE at this point.

This is just a complete and total falsehood. 100% wrong.

This is even worse:

4) So what is frequently being misrepresented here is how much skill is required to work in COVID ICU (versus more typical ICU where more nursing skill is required.)
The unintuitive result of a novel pandemic is that basic hospital treatment started just being primarily palliative in nature or over interventions like intubation and Ventilation which were actually resulting in worse patient prognosis. Several studies found this as early as spring. Basically with a Novel pandemic lots of mistakes are made in treatment. Quite simply areas of expertise are limited. Lets not pretend there is specialized staff teams here well adept at Covid-19.

Absolutely not true on any level. There isn’t “less nursing care” required when dealing with an COVID ICU patient in acute respiratory distress. This is so ridiculous I had to read it twice to actually understand what you were saying.

You don’t understand that acute respiratory care is a specialized training? There isn’t some ridiculously ‘easier COVID-style” of ICU care.

Here’s the kicker:

So finally yes, a pandemic of a Century is a terrible affliction. But if you do end up in ICU here the prognosis is not good, probably around 50-50 in Alberta, even with totally adequate staffing. Lets not pretend they're amazingly saving so many critical patients.

Again, completely untrue.

How on earth is this so hard?

 

[Fenway]

ICU bed capacity is becoming a big issue on both sides of the border

Cedars-Sinai in LA is FULL and that is a world-class hospital

In the Boston area people are scared - here is a pic of our busiest subway station last Friday

9 months into this we are all numb

 

[Davo Ikinzom]

COVID-19 on track to be a leading cause of death in Alberta

Data on leading causes of death for 2020 will not be available until late next year, according to Service Alberta. But compared with the results of 2019’s list, COVID-19 has now surpassed causes of death including blocked artery and stroke, which led to 678 and 602 fatalities last year, respectively.

COVID-19 trails the fifth-leading cause of death in 2019, heart attacks, which resulted in 1,061 deaths. Alberta would need to average 16 COVID-19 deaths each day for the rest of December to surpass that number.

Seasonal influenza has not been among the top 30 leading causes of death in Alberta in any year over the past two decades.

 

[yukoner88]

I can't wait till we can debate hockey topics again

 

[Ol' Jase]

How did Alberta end up with Canada's most severe second wave? | Calgary Herald

 

[yukoner88]

How did Alberta end up with Canada's most severe second wave? | Calgary Herald

This article seems to ignore whats happened around the world, and the USA. Aside from a couple vague sentences I'm the first paragraph, hardly any mention of the surges in Toronto, and Quebec, no mention of Manitoba having the highest increase (on per capita basis, and not to mention the long term care senior centers having the virus get in them, and exposing the debacle the Manitoba program is as a whole).

All this article really did was crap on the Alberta government (while praising Nenshi's comments) without providing much information on the responses in the other parts of the country.

Debate the policies all you want, but if you (the journalist) brand your article as a comparison to the other jurisdictions, then state which ones you think are correct so the reader knows what your making your comparisons against.

 

[nabob]

This article seems to ignore whats happened around the world, and the USA. Aside from a couple vague sentences I'm the first paragraph, hardly any mention of the surges in Toronto, and Quebec, no mention of Manitoba having the highest increase (on per capita basis, and not to mention the long term care senior centers having the virus get in them, and exposing the debacle the Manitoba program is as a whole).

All this article really did was crap on the Alberta government (while praising Nenshi's comments) without providing much information on the responses in the other parts of the country.

Debate the policies all you want, but if you (the journalist) brand your article as a comparison to the other jurisdictions, then state which ones you think are correct so the reader knows what your making your comparisons against.

yeah it’s really just another trashy Alberta bashing piece of media garbage. It’s the cool thing to do right now. Gets lots of views online and generates a lot of revenue

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

A lot of funny memes about the nightmare of 2020 ending, but come January 2021, our hospitals are going to be in a much worse situation then they are now, and restrictions will likely be extended. f*** me I hope this vaccine rollout is faster then some of the vibes I am currently getting. We desperately need that Moderna vaccine to be in production along with the Pfizer one.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

I expect that there will be a great many he said, she said, stories concerning landlords locking out tenants.

‘OVERNIGHT, WITH NO WARNING’: Locks changed, signs taken down at well-known restaurant | Ottawa Sun

 

[ThePhoenixx]

Rent relief for businesses hit hard by COVID slow to come | Ottawa Sun

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calg...apacity-fill-up-with-covid-patients-1.5835846

what's the point of these articles anymore?

 

[ThePhoenixx]

'It hurts': Workers grapple with the mental impacts of Alberta's recession - AirdrieToday.com

"Colin Rankin used to run a successful audio engineering business from his home in St. Albert – until COVID-19 hit."

"Cole Goodine, a bareback rodeo athlete in Alberta, has seen his mental health decline since the pandemic began. The rodeo athlete works hard to manage his depression, but the impact of COVID-19 on his livelihood..."

End Quote/

It really goes on and on. Now the authorities will force those who are alone to be even more alone during the holidays as per their last round of, "If you live alone, get used to being alone." Self-harm will be going on in Alberta during the holidays by people who are forced into government/medical officer mandated isolation. As long as the Covid numbers drop it appears our leaders are OK with that. It does make sense. 'Normal' people can catch Covid, but most people don't think suicide or self-harm will affect them. They can just not think about it.

 

[Dorian2]

I expect that there will be a great many he said, she said, stories concerning landlords locking out tenants.

‘OVERNIGHT, WITH NO WARNING’: Locks changed, signs taken down at well-known restaurant | Ottawa Sun

Sounds like some strange sour grapes going on or something. Are there loopholes provided for the current pandemic situation that would help mitigate this? If not, there should be.

 

[McJadeddog]

what's the point of these articles anymore?

What do you mean? The purpose of news articles is to inform the public about what is happening in the world around them. What is the alternative to covering the pandemic that you are suggesting?

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

What do you mean? The purpose of news articles is to inform the public about what is happening in the world around them. What is the alternative to covering the pandemic that you are suggesting?

these article ring hollow we are bombarded with the same topic day after day for 9 months
we get it, hospitals are filling up fast

 

[McJadeddog]

these article ring hollow we are bombarded with the same topic day after day for 9 months
we get it, hospitals are filling up fast

I'm just confused what you were have the news agencies do though? Are they supposed to stop covering the biggest news story or the last 20-30 years because its "more of the same"? I'm guessing that in year 3 of world war 2 (or any other long-running war) that there was still a headline when 81 soldiers were killed (81 COVID deaths occurred in Canada yesterday), or when our supply lines were running thin to the front line, or we were running out of ammunition because our factories couldn't keep up. Or a million other stories. I get what you are saying, this article isn't really saying much that is NEW information, but its still important to cover the story.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I'm just confused what you were have the news agencies do though? Are they supposed to stop covering the biggest news story or the last 20-30 years because its "more of the same"? I'm guessing that in year 3 of world war 2 (or any other long-running war) that there was still a headline when 81 soldiers were killed (81 COVID deaths occurred in Canada yesterday), or when our supply lines were running thin to the front line, or we were running out of ammunition because our factories couldn't keep up. Or a million other stories. I get what you are saying, this article isn't really saying much that is NEW information, but its still important to cover the story.

Are you comparing WWII to this pandemic??

no I get why the news outlets cover these things, but this isn't new information at this point...it's pointless IMO
someone could literally write "Hospitals about to be overrun!" everyday for the past 9 months

 

[Little Fury]

Are you comparing WWII to this pandemic??

no I get why the news outlets cover these things, but this isn't new information at this point...it's pointless IMO
someone could literally write "Hospitals about to be overrun!" everyday for the past 9 months

They weren't running those kinds of stories here in the summer when cases were relatively low.

 

[McJadeddog]

Are you comparing WWII to this pandemic??

no I get why the news outlets cover these things, but this isn't new information at this point...it's pointless IMO
someone could literally write "Hospitals about to be overrun!" everyday for the past 9 months

No, I was just trying to think of another event that was very long-running, and where in the day-to-day, not much would necessarily be happening that was "new". Wars was the first example that sprang to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

Additionally, this is the first time when hospitals in Canada actually ARE at capacity. They have been talking about it potentially happening for the last 9 months, but now is the first time where it as actually happening, and its no longer a theoretical outcome.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yes. If you are under 70, your chances of surviving ICU admission is not dire. It’s not 50/50. It’s not even close.

The 50-59 age group example was to illustrate how incredibly wrong your statement about ICU care was.

This is just incredible. You are presented real numbers that clearly show you are wrong about your ICU assertions and you can’t even deal with that. Instead, you go on some ridiculous tangent about misunderstanding numbers that aren’t saying what they’re say or some other baffling word salad.

If some of the deaths weren’t admitted to the ICU, that makes your statements on ICU care even more ridiculous.

Total ICU admissions age under 70 - 332

Total deaths age under 70 - 96

Just with those numbers 28.9%. That doesn’t take into account any deaths that would have no ICU admissions in that range. If there are, that number actually gets better.

This is exactly what you said:



This is just a complete and total falsehood. 100% wrong.

This is even worse:



Absolutely not true on any level. There isn’t “less nursing care” required when dealing with an COVID ICU patient in acute respiratory distress. This is so ridiculous I had to read it twice to actually understand what you were saying.

You don’t understand that acute respiratory care is a specialized training? There isn’t some ridiculously ‘easier COVID-style” of ICU care.

Here’s the kicker:



Again, completely untrue.

How on earth is this so hard?

You can't even read the outcomes chart so no point discussing it.

Not going to entertain this further. You strawman constantly, so that the exchanges are unproductive.