Coronavirus Thread - mod note post 23 & 541

[Claypool]

There's growing evidence the draconian lockdowns hurt as much as they help.
For the last 7 weeks I've been asking, how did we reopen? Put so many back to work? Have daily protests. Party on the beaches? Resume lunch and dinner with friends 3-4 feet away across the table. How did we do all this while watching deaths fall and ICU usage fall and ventilator usage fall?

Then you look at Sweden. Same thing happened there.

I also question when "flatten the curve" to save the hospitals changed to "Do what I say to save every life?"

10 people a day are dying from Coronavirus in Michigan right now, according to the seven-day averages.
That's not insignificant.
But how many people are dying from other things?
We don't close our businesses down because of those things.

This whole "wear a mask until a vaccine is developed" movement is not hitching a ride on my wagon, that's for sure.

It's nice that the NHLers are getting back to hockey.

But us regular people want to get back to it and take our chances.

You don't think it's strange local governments in big cities aren't denouncing the protesting and rioting while saying in the same sentence they're banning outside gatherings?

The virus has become politicized due to the election. Democrats want this thing shut down as long as possible. If Biden wins I imagine the lock downs will magically be lifted and all the health experts will say the virus isn't nearly as deadly as once believed and people can begin interacting normally again.

 

[MBH]

You don't think it's strange local governments in big cities aren't denouncing the protesting and rioting while saying in the same sentence they're banning outside gatherings?

The virus has become politicized due to the election. Democrats want this thing shut down as long as possible. If Biden wins I imagine the lock downs will magically be lifted and all the health experts will say the virus isn't nearly as deadly as once believed and people can begin interacting normally again.

Of course it's not strange.
It's politics.
Governors told us to lock down to protect hospitals from being overwhelmed. That's not be a danger in Michigan for a long, long time.
COVID-19 Hospitalization data - Infogram
What happened is, Whitmer's approval rating went through the f***ing roof.
Every time she comes out with an order, her approval rating soars.
At some point, because these lockdowns are financially unsustainable, it's going to come back and doom her governorship.

I don't think this is a conspiracy to elect Biden or hurt Trump. I think this is about politicians riding waves of popularity.
This virus is real. Once it catches fire, it burns through a population.
These towns getting slammed now didn't get slammed in March and April like Michigan and New York did.

Look across the pond at Sweden. They're down to 5 deaths a day without ever locking down or without wearing masks. They've had virtually the same experience as Michigan. Without the same draconian measures. What they did, they did voluntarily, for the most part.

 

[Bench]

This whole "wear a mask until a vaccine is developed" movement is not hitching a ride on my wagon, that's for sure.

Most of the time I can find some kind of common ground or empathize for why people have different perspectives, but when I see this kind of statement regarding perhaps the smallest possible inconvenience to your life...

The sheer indifference and lack of compassion is genuinely stunning.

 

[Obe2kenobe]

Most of the time I can find some kind of common ground or empathize for why people have different perspectives, but when I see this kind of statement regarding perhaps the smallest possible inconvenience to your life...

The sheer indifference and lack of compassion is genuinely stunning.

Exactly how I feel. It's like Tom Hanks said in a interview recently. It's a mystery why some people can't wear a mask, social distance etc. it's so simple. Think of the sacrifices other generations of people went thru WW1,WW2. Vietnam losing life and limb. And people are whining about wearing a mask and having to adjust their social lives for a while. Pretty pathetic and selfish.

 

[Claypool]

Most of the time I can find some kind of common ground or empathize for why people have different perspectives, but when I see this kind of statement regarding perhaps the smallest possible inconvenience to your life...

The sheer indifference and lack of compassion is genuinely stunning.

Dr. Fauci lacks compassion?

 

[RabidBadger]

[QUOTE]But how many people are dying from other things?
We don't close our businesses down because of those things[/QUOTE]

That's because the other things people are dying from are not going to be passed to other people. No one is going to infect a waiter with their cancer or cardiovascular disease.

This whole "wear a mask until a vaccine is developed" movement is not hitching a ride on my wagon, that's for sure[/QUOTE

].

That's your choice. Just don't throw a hissy fit when someone at a business tells you a mask is required. Out of curiousity though, what solid reason do you have for eschewing masks?

 

[Bench]

It's difficult to take posts like this seriously. But sure, let's go.

Dr. Fauci lacks compassion?

Yes, if he was actually not following his own recommendations. That would absolutely be something to bring to his attention.

But he's still far enough away from everyone in that room. Every image you went through the trouble of sharing has him at a safe distance. And the whole point of masks on public figures like that during such briefings is to set an example for the populace. You find me one of Fauci going through the grocery store without a mask and then you'll have got him real good.

Of course, even if one man doesn't follow his own sound advice (which again, those gifs don't actually show), that doesn't degrade the entire premise and the good that masks serve during a pandemic.

The fact you somehow think this unravels the overwhelming support of masks within the medical community puts a spotlight on your critical thinking, but mainly where your virtues lie. Honestly, it's a bad look. You should try covering it up with a mask.

 

[Claypool]

It's difficult to take posts like this seriously. But sure, let's go.



Yes, if he was actually not following his own recommendations. That would absolutely be something to bring to his attention.

But he's still far enough away from everyone in that room. Every image you went through the trouble of sharing has him at a safe distance. And the whole point of masks on public figures like that during such briefings is to set an example for the populace. You find me one of Fauci going through the grocery store without a mask and then you'll have got him real good.

Of course, even if one man doesn't follow his own sound advice (which again, those gifs don't actually show), that doesn't degrade the entire premise and the good that masks serve during a pandemic.

The fact you somehow think this unravels the overwhelming support of masks within the medical community puts a spotlight on your critical thinking, but mainly where your virtues lie. Honestly, it's a bad look. You should try covering it up with a mask.

Ok, so I don't have to wear a mask inside as long as I'm six feet away from other people? Got it. Thanks.

If he's not willing to wear a mask properly on camera during hearings in D.C., what make you think he's wearing a mask properly in private?

Again, I'm just following the example set by the leaders we're told to trust the most on this subject.

 

[Bench]

Ok, so I don't have to wear a mask inside as long as I'm six feet away from other people? Got it. Thanks.

Assuming you don't cough or such, that would make it difficult for you to transmit the virus to people around you. The airborne droplets are reduced by wearing of a mask. It is not a complete safeguard, but used aggressively across the population, masks will make a marked difference in how many people receive the required viral load for transmission. If we could assure everyone would cover their coughs, not touch their face, and that they would always stay 6 feet apart - masks would indeed be less necessary. But considering we can't even get people to willing wear masks, damn, following all kinds of other safety procedures in addition to that feels like a reach. This is the simplest and best thing we can do in a bad situation.

Millions of health care workers have worn masks to protect patients for 8 hours a day for most of their careers, but suddenly people need to wear one while picking up their groceries and it's a god damn crime against freedom.

But I know engaging with you on this level is pointless, because you have no interest in an honest discourse. You want to sow distrust and doubt into one of the most basic and humane practices we can do right now as a population. Somehow you derive pride from finding one bad example, even if we treat it as one, and undermining a practice generated from a place of community and goodwill.

"I saw my doctor smoking, so I guess it's OK for me to smoke." - Some jerkoff somewhere. Except this time the smoke is contagious and the jerkoff doesn't care if he continues to spread it among his neighbors.

 

[Claypool]

Assuming you don't cough or such, that would make it difficult for you to transmit the virus to people around you. The airborne droplets are reduced by wearing of a mask. It is not a complete safeguard, but used aggressively across the population, masks will make a marked difference in how many people receive the required viral load for transmission. If we could assure everyone would cover their coughs, not touch their face, and that they would always stay 6 feet apart - masks would indeed be less necessary. But considering we can't even get people to willing wear masks, damn, following all kinds of other safety procedures in addition to that feels like a reach. This is the simplest and best thing we can do in a bad situation.

Millions of health care workers have worn masks to protect patients for 8 hours a day for most of their careers, but suddenly people need to wear one while picking up their groceries and it's a god damn crime against freedom.

But I know engaging with you on this level is pointless, because you have no interest in an honest discourse. You want to sow distrust and doubt into one of the most basic and humane practices we can do right now as a population. Somehow you derive pride from finding one bad example, even if we treat it as one, and undermining a practice generated from a place of community and goodwill.

"I saw my doctor smoking, so I guess it's OK for me to smoke." - Some jerkoff somewhere. Except this time the smoke is contagious and the jerkoff doesn't care if he continues to spread it among his neighbors.

I'm not arguing in bad faith. I just want to know why this country's most recognized health expert - the person we're all supposed to look towards for guidance on how to stay safe during this outbreak - won't even follow his own simple guidelines of mask wearing. Dr. Fauci is 79-years old. He's in the most at-risk age group to possibly suffer serious, long-term health complications or even die as a result of contracting the virus. He lied to the country three months ago saying masks weren't required and then tried to backtrack on it.

Explain to me why you believe this country should look to this man to lead us out of this mess?

 

[MBH]

Most of the time I can find some kind of common ground or empathize for why people have different perspectives, but when I see this kind of statement regarding perhaps the smallest possible inconvenience to your life...

The sheer indifference and lack of compassion is genuinely stunning.

Lack of compassion for whom?

My friends and I love to play hockey.
It's been 4 months since our last game.

How long are we supposed to wait? When does Bench and Big Gretch decree we can start living our life again?

What if you own a gym?

How about the guys I know who own bars and have to shut it down?
They spent months working and working and waiting. And Boom. Big Gretch shuts it down.

Didn't matter whether or not they followed the rules and spent thousands on improvements to make their place safe. Just a shut down.
Boom.

Meanwhile, these same f***ing control freaks can walk into Dunkin' Donuts and sit across the table from their friends and eat 5 donuts.

 

[MBH]

formatting screwed

Your formatting is f***ed up.
But I wear a mask any place that asks me to. I follow the stupid rules, wear a mask into the restaurant, and then sit down, take my mask off, and chat with someone 4 feet from my face.
Then I put the mask on and leave when the meeting is over. (Following one of the stupidest orders yet)
I respect the rights of property owners. They've got enough to worry about without jackasses and white knights creating drama.
I don't respect Whitmer's pandering orders.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Lack of compassion for whom?

My friends and I love to play hockey.
It's been 4 months since our last game.

How long are we supposed to wait? When does Bench and Big Gretch decree we can start living our life again?

What if you own a gym?

How about the guys I know who own bars and have to shut it down?
They spent months working and working and waiting. And Boom. Big Gretch shuts it down.

Didn't matter whether or not they followed the rules and spent thousands on improvements to make their place safe. Just a shut down.
Boom.

Meanwhile, these same f***ing control freaks can walk into Dunkin' Donuts and sit across the table from their friends and eat 5 donuts.

I love to play hockey as well. I'd play five-six days a week, multiple games a night. I'm not doing that right now, because I don't feel it's safe. I'm on multiple teams and they have said "I don't feel it's safe enough with the protocols that the Ann Arbor Ice Cube has in place to want to play".

And so many of the places like bars and gyms... Well, for every reasonable owner who has done their job and due diligence, there is a Harper's that lets a couple hundred cases spread. There is a gym that doesn't do follow the protocols all the way. Is it unfair? You're damn right it's unfair. But guess what, the virus doesn't care if 90% of people are doing everything perfectly correct. If 10% of businesses do a shitty job of following protocols and allow an environment for the virus to flourish, it will spread around the community just the same.

For most people, you can live your life if you wear the mask and you take your own precautions to not spread it. Live your life in terms of having a crowded get together at a bar? That's not going to happen for a while no matter what. Sporting events? No matter what.

Want things to come back to normal? Get everyone to wear a mask, not touch their face, and wash their hands. Get everyone to be cognizant and respectful of one another. The protests were things that were justified in happening because of the poor treatment of a portion of our citizenry. It was very very bad timing that the match which struck the flame happened in a pandemic. If people didn't freak out so hard about "draconian measures" (which really really really weren't draconian... look at China welding doors shut) and just did simple shit like kept their distance, washed hands thoroughly, and wore a mask, we wouldn't be seeing 80,000 new confirmed cases a day.

 

[MBH]

I love to play hockey as well. I'd play five-six days a week, multiple games a night. I'm not doing that right now, because I don't feel it's safe. I'm on multiple teams and they have said "I don't feel it's safe enough with the protocols that the Ann Arbor Ice Cube has in place to want to play".

And so many of the places like bars and gyms... Well, for every reasonable owner who has done their job and due diligence, there is a Harper's that lets a couple hundred cases spread. There is a gym that doesn't do follow the protocols all the way. Is it unfair? You're damn right it's unfair. But guess what, the virus doesn't care if 90% of people are doing everything perfectly correct. If 10% of businesses do a shitty job of following protocols and allow an environment for the virus to flourish, it will spread around the community just the same.

For most people, you can live your life if you wear the mask and you take your own precautions to not spread it. Live your life in terms of having a crowded get together at a bar? That's not going to happen for a while no matter what. Sporting events? No matter what.

Want things to come back to normal? Get everyone to wear a mask, not touch their face, and wash their hands. Get everyone to be cognizant and respectful of one another. The protests were things that were justified in happening because of the poor treatment of a portion of our citizenry. It was very very bad timing that the match which struck the flame happened in a pandemic. If people didn't freak out so hard about "draconian measures" (which really really really weren't draconian... look at China welding doors shut) and just did simple shit like kept their distance, washed hands thoroughly, and wore a mask, we wouldn't be seeing 80,000 new confirmed cases a day.

There is no end game for this, TSweeney.
I've followed guidelines (for the most part) and rules since day 1.
4 months later, things have not returned to normal.
And now an entire summer of hockey is at risk after an entire spring. (Not to mention the drastic impact on my business. Or my wife's business)

So
1) COVID lockdowns have cut my business revenue down by 75 percent.
2) COVID lockdowns have cut my wife's business revenue down by 85 percent.
3) COVID lockdowns have removed a great source of fun, exercise and socialization from my life.
4) COVID lockdowns have closed some of best friends' businesses completely.

Just a "minor" inconvenience, I guess.

And now I've got to hear dimWhitmer - the same person who housed COVID-19 patients in nursing homes leading to one of the highest death rates in the US - boast about "how she's saving lives?" by requiring people to wear masks?????
After ventilator use is down 1400 percent????
While our 7-day death count average is around 10? Down 1500 percent???

No thanks.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

There is no end game for this, TSweeney.
I've followed guidelines (for the most part) and rules since day 1.
4 months later, things have not returned to normal.
And now an entire summer of hockey is at risk after an entire spring. (Not to mention the drastic impact on my business. Or my wife's business)

So
1) COVID lockdowns have cut my business revenue down by 75 percent.
2) COVID lockdowns have cut my wife's business revenue down by 85 percent.
3) COVID lockdowns have removed a great source of fun, exercise and socialization from my life.
4) COVID lockdowns have closed some of best friends' businesses completely.

Just a "minor" inconvenience, I guess.

And now I've got to hear dimWhitmer - the same person who housed COVID-19 patients in nursing homes leading to one of the highest death rates in the US - boast about "how she's saving lives?" by requiring people to wear masks?????
After ventilator use is down 1400 percent????
While our 7-day death count average is around 10? Down 1500 percent???

No thanks.

I am not trying to belittle your own personal sacrifice. I apologize if that’s how I came across. It sucks and it isn’t fair. The issue is without a “what if” machine like from Futurama, we can’t see what doing nothing would cost us. Like if we kept on plowing right along. Hell, we probably would have been fine. But I mean, when you look at Sweden who didn’t do much of any lockdowns because they were going for herd immunity... their economy is tanking too. Staying open and staying with the “regular way of life” does not seem to be working much better, if at all than a lockdown to slow/stop and then an orderly re-open.

The issue is that you shut everyone down and coop everyone up for a couple months and then try to throw the switch all at once, you get Florida. You get Texas. You get a cell of several hundred people at Harpers. We botched the re-open on a federal level because you can’t go from 0-60 and they wanted to.

The scientists put out just enough contradictory information (because they’re learning about this on the fly) that it was possible to say “Fauci and co flip flopped! Why trust them when they said one thing this day and this other thing the next day”

Federal leadership has been absent for a large part and when not absent has been antagonizing any and all comers. Instead of having a consistent messaging and saying “new research is being done daily and our understanding of the virus shifts as we learn”, we get them talking nonsense about how we would have less cases if we tested less. Testing doesn’t give you the virus. It shows when you’ve already gotten it.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

So If i'm talking to someone I can remove my mask?

Yeah I have no need to talk to you anymore. You're clearly not interested in any kind of thoughtful discussion.

 

[RabidBadger]

Exactly how I feel. It's like Tom Hanks said in a interview recently. It's a mystery why some people can't wear a mask, social distance etc. it's so simple. Think of the sacrifices other generations of people went thru WW1,WW2. Vietnam losing life and limb. And people are whining about wearing a mask and having to adjust their social lives for a while. Pretty pathetic and selfish.

The mind-blowing thing for me is that a lot of the mask whiners are perfectly willing to don a full face covering for 8 hours while covered in deer piss while they're hunting.

 

[bedtime20]

The mind-blowing thing for me is that a lot of the mask whiners are perfectly willing to don a full face covering for 8 hours while covered in deer piss while they're hunting.

Cloth>deer piss and paint

 

[Run the Jewels]

The virus has become politicized due to the election. Democrats want this thing shut down as long as possible. If Biden wins I imagine the lock downs will magically be lifted and all the health experts will say the virus isn't nearly as deadly as once believed and people can begin interacting normally again.

The virus has been politicized, but it's largely Trump's fault as he politicizes everything. Usually I don't care, but he has completely downplayed the virus and has constantly pushed to open up with no planning whatsoever. He's called it a hoax, said it would go from 15 cases to 0 cases, it would magically disappear in the summer heat, that citizens should "liberate" their states and now he is extorting school districts to open up in the fall.

We did a pretty decent job shutting down in March and April and appeared to have flattened the curve. The next goal should have been to require facemasks in public and to set up a contact tracing app to notify you if you came within 6 feet of someone who ended up getting sick. That never happened. Trump politicized the use of masks saying if you wore one you were against him. His base still feels like requiring them to wear a mask infringes on their personal freedoms. I'm guessing a decent chunk of his base will avoid being vaccinated.

Most first world countries have done a good job controlling the spread. Half Witmer LOLOLOL has made the sensible decision to require businesses to enforce mask use while people are inside their business. That's a good way to go about opening up the economy while trying to stop the spread of the virus. Will Trump supporters agree to this minor inconvenience, or will they show up to stores armed and maskless? I do fully expect that to happen.

Trump has completely bungled the containment of the virus and has actually made it much worse, so has his buddy Jair Bolsonaro.

 

[Bondurant]

The virus has been politicized, but it's largely Trump's fault as he politicizes everything.
Trump has completely bungled the containment of the virus and has actually made it much worse, so has his buddy Jair Bolsonaro.

So, Trump is to blame for Cuomo ordering nursing homes to take COVID patients, for De Blasio telling people to ride the subway still, for Pelosi telling people to visit Chinatown and go about their business when this started? Funny how New York and California were the flash points but somehow it's Trump's fault. There's a lot to get on this guy for but this isn't it.

 

[MBH]

So If i'm talking to someone I can remove my mask?

I talk to people. Then I interview them.
They put on the mask for the interview on video. Because they know how people react.
They play the game.

 

[MBH]

So, Trump is to blame for Cuomo ordering nursing homes to take COVID patients, for De Blasio telling people to ride the subway still, for Pelosi telling people to visit Chinatown and go about their business when this started? Funny how New York and California were the flash points but somehow it's Trump's fault. There's a lot to get on this guy for but this isn't it.

Trump has been incoherent on this issue - to willing to cast himself as someone who'll find the cure or solution.
Truth be told, incoherence is sometimes preferable to the alternative with some folks.
Whitmer and Cuomo have been coherent. But they've used their platform to create a massive culture of fear.
Now these f***ers are wonder why teachers don't want to go back to work. Or why parents don't send their kids back to school.
Still waiting for Bill Gates and co to swoop in with their online education solution.

 

[Bondurant]

There's beautiful hockey hair in Australian Football League.

 

[Run the Jewels]

So, Trump is to blame for Cuomo ordering nursing homes to take COVID patients, for De Blasio telling people to ride the subway still, for Pelosi telling people to visit Chinatown and go about their business when this started? Funny how New York and California were the flash points but somehow it's Trump's fault. There's a lot to get on this guy for but this isn't it.

There is plenty to criticize, however we have learned a lot since March. California was never as bad as New York. A lot of bad decisions where made in New York due to ignorance. Unfortunately Trump hasn't learning anything. He finally wore a mask yesterday when visiting Walter Reed. That was five months after it was clear the virus wasn't going anywhere without a strong, concerted effort to stop the spread. He has done absolutely nothing to try to minimize the spread of the virus, in fact he's made it more difficult.

The new hotspots are Texas, Arizona and Florida, states that were not liberal hotbeds but will hopefully vote Trump out of office due to his vast incompetence on dealing with the pandemic.

 

[jkutswings]

Obviously each governor/mayor/local official is responsible for their own populace, and should do what they feel is best for the people they serve. But there is at least SOME blame for the hodgepodge of decisions due to an ongoing lack of consistency and leadership at the federal level.