OT: Coronavirus (COVID-19): Part VI (NO RIOT/PROTEST DISCUSSION)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tawnos

A guy with a bass
Sep 10, 2004
28,997
10,634
Charlotte, NC
The problem there is that an employee who refuses to go back to a job that is offering hours wouldn’t technically be eligible for UI, since ultimately they’d be let go for cause. They touched on that at the end of the NPR report there, but didn’t expand on it. That doesn’t solve the problem of trying to find employees from a pool of those who were furloughed/laid off. It’s also more than a little short-sighted on the employees’ part, because they’re going to find in July that those benefits have changed and now they don’t have the job to go back to.

Unless... did the CARES act expand UI to cover those who felt unsafe going back to their jobs?
 

NYSPORTS

back afta dis. . .
Jun 17, 2019
7,993
4,459
Yeah, I just got a bill from when I had a 5 minute video conference call to try and get tested back in March. Had some chest tightness and was concerned about my wife going to work at a hospital and potentially spreading it to already at risk people. Didn't meet the guidelines so was told I couldn't get the test and was just told to call back if things get worse. We actually have good insurance through my wife's job.

Insurance denied, $188. For a 5 minute video conference call which didn't help at all (not my Dr's fault, but still.) I had assumed my call would have been covered or I might not have made that call. I definitely wouldn't have if my wife didn't work at a hospital. I definitely wouldn't have if we weren't in a position to afford $188.

so you appeal it multiple times.
 

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden
Dementia Gene Raises Risk of Severe COVID-19 - UConn Today

Uconn seems to believe there is a connection between covid and the dementia gene. Although i would think Fla would be in worse shape than they appear to be.

Interesting!

Maybe I mentioned this before, or it was in another thread, but in Sweden they have established that 50% of the deaths come from nursing homes, and of those 50% -- another 50% are people with Alzheimers/dementia. So 25% of all deaths have dementia. 1% of the population has dementia -- so this is an extreme over representation.

With that said, its not explained with genetic reasons here in Sweden. Instead it is believed that its a combination of persons with dementia being unable to describe well when they start to feel symptoms of a flu as well as not understanding to distance from other persons they share living with. In Sweden, and I am sure this is the case elsewhere too, you are never allowed to lock-up someone with dementia, either in their room nor in their nursing home. The staff may try to convince someone with dementia to stay in their room because they are sick or from taking a stroll or whatever and they may stop someone from entering the room of another patient, but they cannot force a person with Alzheimers to stay in their room. As a result nursing homes in Sweden supposedly has completely failed with preventing Covid 19 to spread in nursing homes with several persons with alzheimer. The normal staffing levels have been far from sufficient, and they describe that the second they are tied up somewhere else, they find someone with Covid strolling around mixing up with uninfected persons. I am sure we can all imagine the mess they have to deal with.

I think this just underlines how the focus on handling any second waves must shift from being tremendously broad and burdensome to instead taking very extraordinary -- but directed and limited -- measures where they pay off the most. Either you must move elders with dementia to special covid 19 homes (which is tricky legally) or you must go from having maybe 3-4 under nurses treating 30 persons in a nursing home to 20.

By just taking a few measures like this, most should be able to a second wave without being hit more than a normal serious flu season.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: egelband

NYSPORTS

back afta dis. . .
Jun 17, 2019
7,993
4,459
Interesting!

Maybe I mentioned this before, or it was in another thread, but in Sweden they have established that 50% of the deaths come from nursing homes, and of those 50% -- another 50% are people with Alzheimers/dementia. So 25% of all deaths have dementia. 1% of the population has dementia -- so this is an extreme over representation.

With that said, its not explained with genetic reasons here in Sweden. Instead it is believed that its a combination of persons with dementia being unable to describe well when they start to feel symptoms of a flu as well as not understanding to distance from other persons they share living with. In Sweden, and I am sure this is the case elsewhere too, you are never allowed to lock-up someone with dementia, either in their room nor in their nursing home. The staff may try to convince someone with dementia to stay in their room because they are sick or from taking a stroll or whatever and they may stop someone from entering the room of another patient, but they cannot force a person with Alzheimers to stay in their room. As a result nursing homes in Sweden supposedly has completely failed with preventing Covid 19 to spread in nursing homes with several persons with alzheimer. The normal staffing levels have been far from sufficient, and they describe that the second they are tied up somewhere else, they find someone with Covid strolling around mixing up with uninfected persons. I am sure we can all imagine the mess they have to deal with.

I think this just underlines how the focus on handling any second waves must shift from being tremendously broad and burdensome to instead taking very extraordinary -- but directed and limited -- measures where they pay off the most. Either you must move elders with dementia to special covid 19 homes (which is tricky legally) or you must go from having maybe 3-4 under nurses treating 30 persons in a nursing home to 20.

By just taking a few measures like this, most should be able to a second wave without being hit more than a normal serious flu season.


Have a few conference calls but will circle back.

good feedback. I believe it’s the gene or hereditary gene which leads me to believe the person may not be currently suffering from dementia (although they might be)

“OVID-19 infection among participants of European ancestry who carry two faulty copies of the APOE gene (termed e4e4) . . . .”
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ola

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden


The later graph speaks for itself, and when you see it, it is not surprising how more and more of the top epidemiologists is starting to believe that the herd immunity threshold has been reached (under current conditions) in a place like London and others that have been hit hard.

England imposed a very strict country wide lockdown around 24-25 March or something. The effect of the lockdown on mobility was instantaneous and country wide. I.e. it can be proven that people in London stopped moving at the same people in the North West or East regions stopped moving. Why did the curve start to turn down 6 days ahead in London as opposed to the rest of the country, and up to three weeks before it started to go down in place that wasn't hit hard early? If it was the shutdown alone that made the curves go down independent of immunity -- they would have followed each other.

In light of the graph above, we can also look at the curve in Stockholm, that did not lockdown.
upload_2020-5-27_15-3-8.png


The curves aren't measuring the same things. Stockholm's curve is deaths while regional England curve is cases. The peak in Stockholm in deaths comes about 2 weeks after the peak in London. Looking at infections, that makes perfect sense since you on average dies about 2-3 weeks after infection. So Stockholm's curve is probably very compareable to London's. No matter what, it follows the same part with possible a little delay.

Mobility in Stockholm for retail was down 28% and 33% for public transportation, while in London it was down 78% and 68% respectively.

The WHO and Fauci and co. are still claiming that immunity doesn't have any impact until you go up towards 50-70% and that serology testing for antibodies tell the full story. Unless some other factor explains the above facts -- that belief is just significantly incorrect and the impact on policies is tremendous.

Explanations based on:
* Climate does not fly, because its not like London became warmer earlier than rest of England.
* On population density doesn't fly either because there is no correlation in rest of England.
 

Irishguy42

Mr. Preachy
Sep 11, 2015
26,809
19,054
NJ
Were there really that many dire warnings about Germany re-opening? They were one of the few countries who actually responded well to the initial stages of the pandemic, and their numbers have always been comparatively good for the most part. One of the better countries overall, with the likes of South Korea.

It's not like they had a crap response and then are doing well.
 

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden


Supposedly Michael Levitt's predictions from a while back on peak curve for many locations awhile back have been really accurate.

@Machinehead Do you know what a Gompertz function is?
 

sbjnyc

Registered User
Jun 28, 2011
5,954
2,016
New York


Supposedly Michael Levitt's predictions from a while back on peak curve for many locations awhile back have been really accurate.

@Machinehead Do you know what a Gompertz function is?

Gompertz functions are (were?) included in the syllabus for actuarial exams though I can't remember actually using them on anything. The form we studied was just a means of interpolating points on a mortality table at different ages. State regulations usually proscribe these things and I think any interpolation used now is just linear. These functions are just particular types of logistic curves which are in general used to model population growth. So he estimated the parameters of his general logistic and wound up with a Gompertz function.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ola

romba

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
6,690
4,451
New Jersey
Spent the last 3+ days pretty sick. Principal symptoms were fever, aches, and inability to focus – so, neither of the "classic" symptoms of difficulty breathing and/or loss of sense of smell, but still worse than I've felt in a couple of years, and concerning because I'm isolating with my parents who are both in their 70s, and one of whom had pneumonia this past winter. Started to feel somewhat normal when I woke up this AM. As I type, still slightly fevered (about 1 degree above normal) and concentration not great but other than that, mostly normal-ish.

Had to wait to get tested until today because the local scheduling office was closed Sunday + Memorial Day. Went to a drive-through site in the Hudson Valley, and it was pretty well run, I have to say.

The test itself, however... yeargh. 2/10, would not recommend.*



*Unless you need it, then definitely go get it. :)
You've got a ways to go, hang in there. It usually gets better as your ABs kill/block the virus, but then it tends to get worse again due to the immune response, after which it should subside and get better.

I saw an excellent site (Eastern Virginia Medical School) they put out 5/25 based on the latest literature, and includes a protocol for treatment for all phases of COVID, starting from preventive and ending with ICU care (page 3 on the link below). The preventative treatment they outline is pretty much the same as the symptomatic-but-at-home treatment they discuss: Vitamin C, D, Zinc and Melatonin, plus some optional aka unproven stuff. All of these have shown some anti-inflammatory effects without any side effects and can help prevent the more severe symptoms. They also have charts and explanations of all aspects of the illness, as well as what to expect at each stage.



https://www.evms.edu/media/evms_pub...cine/EVMS_Critical_Care_COVID-19_Protocol.pdf
 
Last edited:

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden
I have no idea.

Gompertz functions are (were?) included in the syllabus for actuarial exams though I can't remember actually using them on anything. The form we studied was just a means of interpolating points on a mortality table at different ages. State regulations usually proscribe these things and I think any interpolation used now is just linear. These functions are just particular types of logistic curves which are in general used to model population growth. So he estimated the parameters of his general logistic and wound up with a Gompertz function.

Those YT's are very interesting and Levitt's part in this thing is a very very fascinating story. Lol, I would watch this Hollywood movie. :)

Supposedly he can prove that Covid-19's growth never was exponential -- like so many assumed it would be. Kind of like a bullet leaving a gun that has a high speed and then the speed decreases linearly due to air resistance (albeit against a lg scale), Covid-19 does the same.

But to start from the beginning. There are a few, not a bunch, of formulas created to model growth in different areas with different logarithmic functions. They pretty much cover the whole field. Some can be used top map the spread of a fire that grows exponentially until it runs out of oxygen and crashes. Others to model how grasshoppers will increase and decrease in its curves. Like in so many other areas, the basics of nature is not super versatile, and patterns in one area are often mirrored in a bunch of others.

So Levitt is not an epidemiologist, but he is a bioscience modelling guru, the modelling guru, and have been working with models like this his whole life. He has a lot of friends in China and when this thing broke out in January he was sitting at home being a little depressed because his wife died fairly recently, he had been alone for Christmas etc, and he started to apply his knowledge to the virus outbreak just for fun. He expected exponential growth and that a model to simulate such a pattern would fit best -- because this is what many epidemiologist used. But it he doesn't get it to fit Covid-19 at all by his high standards of modelling (including the Sigmoid function used by most epidemiologists). So after a while of testing different alternatives he digs up this old Gompertz function, and tries it just for the fun of it -- and its fit to a T.

upload_2020-5-28_23-39-28.png


Just like a bullet leaving a gun that has a speed that is reducing linearly, the growth of Covid 19 is decreasing linearly (against a lg scale) from day 1. You get a slightly back-heavy peaky curve when looking at cases per day.

The above chart was South Korea, this is New Zeeland.
upload_2020-5-28_23-44-33.png


And its the same, no matter where he looks, Wuhan, Northern Italy, Princess whatever the boat was called, and so forth and so forth.

So for him its like super obvious, all other formulas get crappy result, but when he tried the Gompertz function -- its beautiful. Schoolbook curves. He thinks great, I got a bunch of new examples to use in class. To help his friends, he applies some specifics for Wuhan and calls it a day. Because if you know that the Gompertz model fits, all you need to do is have very early data (that is correct) and you can produce the rest of the curve. For a curve that will follow the Gompertz function, all you need is data on a few weeks of growth and decrease of growth -- and you can produce a curve showing how it will play out exclusive of other new factors coming in.

But then after a weeks when he is leaning back in his, throwing down some old malt products, he starts to get agitated. WHAT IS THIS? MAKE MY DAY? Experts, epidemiologists, are on TV, and THEY GOT IT ALL WRONG. They are talking about exponential growth leading to millions of deaths. The curves and models they are producing are using poor formulas to predict the growth that will produce results that are clearly not in touch with reality -- at all (from his perspective, what do I know). Don't they understand that with Gompertz -- just like the bullet falling from the air landing on the ground -- the curve will go up fast, but also down fast. And as soon as you can see that the growth initally isn't mega fast -- you know that you are not talking about 100% of a population getting seriously ill. It will stop much before that.

So he seeks some attention and tells everyone how it should be, he is a big celebrty in these circles so he also gets pretty much attention, but to his shock -- he finds that nobody of the real experts that are impacting government policy listen to him.

After that he has kind of been on a crusade. One thing is really obvious, when looking at predictions of places reaching Peak Outbreak, and what will happen after it, his predictions are 100x as good as anyone else's. He just nails them. In some cases he obviously had bad input data, and remember, when looking at growth like this -- its essential to isolate a geographical area. If you have 5 different outbreaks occuring at different times, but within the borders of one country, you must have 5 different curves. The curve for this country with outbreaks coming at different times -- can not be modeled with one Gompertz. If that is the case, you must have five Gompertz and add them together.

A tweet showing how frustrated he is:
 

Attachments

  • upload_2020-5-29_0-13-27.png
    upload_2020-5-29_0-13-27.png
    154.5 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:

Brooklyn Rangers Fan

Change is good.
Aug 23, 2005
19,237
8,238
Brooklyn & Upstate
You've got a ways to go, hang in there. It usually gets better as your ABs kill/block the virus, but then it tends to get worse again due to the immune response, after which it should subside and get better.

I saw an excellent site (Eastern Virginia Medical School) they put out 5/25 based on the latest literature, and includes a protocol for treatment for all phases of COVID, starting from preventive and ending with ICU care (page 3 on the link below). The preventative treatment they outline is pretty much the same as the symptomatic-but-at-home treatment they discuss: Vitamin C, D, Zinc and Melatonin, plus some optional aka unproven stuff. All of these have shown some anti-inflammatory effects without any side effects and can help prevent the more severe symptoms. They also have charts and explanations of all aspects of the illness, as well as what to expect at each stage.



https://www.evms.edu/media/evms_pub...cine/EVMS_Critical_Care_COVID-19_Protocol.pdf
Thanks — I actually got the results back and they came in negative. Feeling much better as of today. Still, now taking a 14-day cycle of doxycycline just in case it was early stages of Lyme (since I’m in the Hudson Valley).
 

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden
I love this story, because on one side its so obvious how one of our time's greatest thinkers, is so human. Just like the rest of us. Gets out of his comfort zone and he is seen as a tin foil hat guy.

On the other side, you have one of the worst disaster in over 100 years hit earth, all focus and all resources are put on solving it, but you still end up with one guy out of his comfort zone finding maybe not "the" answer -- but some answers -- that nobody else can see at first and of course nobody will listen to him lol. Like surely, he is also wrong in many areas, but also to some extent, like obviously, just right.
 

sbjnyc

Registered User
Jun 28, 2011
5,954
2,016
New York
I love this story, because on one side its so obvious how one of our time's greatest thinkers, is so human. Just like the rest of us. Gets out of his comfort zone and he is seen as a tin foil hat guy.

On the other side, you have one of the worst disaster in over 100 years hit earth, all focus and all resources are put on solving it, but you still end up with one guy out of his comfort zone finding maybe not "the" answer -- but some answers -- that nobody else can see at first and of course nobody will listen to him lol. Like surely, he is also wrong in many areas, but also to some extent, like obviously, just right.
They used the model in Spain a few months ago according to this article.

The contagion rate of the Covid-19 will decrease in "seven or ten days", according to mathematical models | Spain's News
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ola

eco's bones

Registered User
Jul 21, 2005
26,056
12,355
Elmira NY
I'll add to the above post--that in Florida and Georgia the state governments have had every reason not to count cases or to find alternative ways of categorizing them but in Wisconsin it's the opposite as the Supreme Court there is in opposition to the State govt. It behooves the state govt. to make sure that every case is counted. That's also probably a good thing as it makes Wisconsin's govt. more proactive in tracking and tracing down new cases and leads.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad