Coronavirus and the Washington Capitals

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txpd

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Some politicians and others are willing to accept what seems to be an unusually high level of collateral damage. They tell citizens it's okay to resume most normal activities - subject to whatever social distancing and smart practices rules are in place for their areas - but do not engage in any public conversation about what level of death/long-term health effects is acceptable. [Maybe the apparently wacko Lt. Gov. of TX is an exception here, in that a few months ago he made a statement to the effect that it's okay if a few old folks die off because of reopening.] AND, as we are seeing, they fail to secure sufficient PPE and care space to accommodate spikes in cases. I think we all know deaths could happen, even under a lockdown scenario, but the number likely to occur in the US is higher than it needs to be due to incompetence of elected officials.

If political and business leadership could ensure that sufficient testing and PPE and the like were available to allow critical sectors of the economy - especially health care and food supply - to function normally, then we could move on to doing the same for education and other activities. But the US and most countries have not been able to keep food processing workers safe, so it's hard to see how anyone involved in education can feel safe about the prospect about going back to in-person schooling. Again, these non-leaders want to push to reopen, but they haven't created the conditions that facilitate a safe reopening.

We are living in a Never wrong and Never apologize era. Once Trump says it, it cant be walked back. The 1918 flu pandemic is now the 1917 flu because Trump said it that way and was called out for it. He couldnt fix it because that is admitting a mistake. The Governor of Texas is taking incoming because he is pulling back while the Gov of FL is full speed ahead. There is really no changing that either
 

Raikkonen

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txpd

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why cant people recognize that wearing masks, washing your hands, limiting your contacts and other means just make odds of getting any illness lower from whatever that number is/was? Its just idiocy.

People that support Trump believe that most of the world is out to get them, take advantage of them, look down on them, steal from them. They think the virus is a worldwide plot to kill their plumbing business and put gay people in charge of everything the worldwide jewish cabal is already running.

In short they dont believe there is anything medical to defend against
 

Raikkonen

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Here is the counter for that: if covid was a demo biological weapon made with top secret biological methods nobody would openly discuss that or reveal technics that made it possible.

For example, nobody besides a small group of scientists knows how our new weapons are made, but those exist and work. For all not in the know it's just some magical thing. Even if your scientists will get one from factory they wont be able to replicate it.

How do you know the same isnt possible with biological things?

We are talking casus belli level virus, so no public article can dismiss the possibility of lies.

Also, helping to extract the virus from the bats in lab sounds a lot like its zoonotic but still artificial. The effect will be the same, at least, right?

My concern is based on long history of lies both from gov and from media (which is controlled). You state some things as fact based on what they tell publicly. Time proved they lie often.
 

tenken00

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Here is the counter for that: if covid was a demo biological weapon made with top secret biological methods nobody would openly discuss that or reveal technics that made it possible.

For example, nobody besides a small group of scientists knows how our new weapons are made, but those exist and work. For all not in the know it's just some magical thing. Even if your scientists will get one from factory they wont be able to replicate it.

How do you know the same isnt possible with biological things?

We are talking casus belli level virus, so no public article can dismiss the possibility of lies.

Also, helping to extract the virus from the bats in lab sounds a lot like its zoonotic but still artificial. The effect will be the same, at least, right?

My concern is based on long history of lies both from gov and from media (which is controlled). You state some things as fact based on what they tell publicly. Time proved they lie often.

The thing about living things is that they continue to change and evolve and adapt. Especially micro organisms like bacteria and viruses, which evolve thousands of times faster than large complex organisms like humans. . It is entirely plausible for an infection to mutate naturally and cause such a pandemic. It doesn't have to be artificial or weaponized. Nature can kill us just as easily.

Modern anti-virus and antibiotics have been around for only what? Less than 100 years? Humans have been plagued with infections for over tens of thousands of years.
 
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g00n

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Here is the counter for that: if covid was a demo biological weapon made with top secret biological methods nobody would openly discuss that or reveal technics that made it possible.

For example, nobody besides a small group of scientists knows how our new weapons are made, but those exist and work. For all not in the know it's just some magical thing. Even if your scientists will get one from factory they wont be able to replicate it.

How do you know the same isnt possible with biological things?

We are talking casus belli level virus, so no public article can dismiss the possibility of lies.

Also, helping to extract the virus from the bats in lab sounds a lot like its zoonotic but still artificial. The effect will be the same, at least, right?

My concern is based on long history of lies both from gov and from media (which is controlled). You state some things as fact based on what they tell publicly. Time proved they lie often.

This is just conspiratorial thinking that assumes something is possible until you prove it isn't, which is impossible.
 
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usiel

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I can question the virus origins and its other biological parameters any day of the week, but why cant people recognize that wearing masks, washing your hands, limiting your contacts and other means just make odds of getting any illness lower from whatever that number is/was? Its just idiocy.

There has simply been a rise of part of the population that embraces conspiracy theories and willfully hiding from fact based reality in the past decade..and often relishing their ignorance. Takes about a minute to see how all the other countries that handled things well and what they did.
 

Silky mitts

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tenken00

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Don't need Disney+ to watch Hamilton at home.

 
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g00n

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...nner-main_russiaspies-12pm:homepage/story-ans

LONDON — Security officials announced Thursday that hackers linked to Russia's intelligence services were actively trying to steal information from researchers working to produce coronavirus vaccines in the United States, Britain and Canada.

Paul Chichester, director of operations at Britain’s National Cyber Security Centre (NCSC), said the government-backed hackers launched “despicable attacks against those doing vital work to combat the coronavirus pandemic.”
The British urged organizations working on vaccines and antivirals “to defend their networks,” Chichester said in a statement.

Britain’s cybersecurity agency, alongside the National Security Agency in the United States, said that a group named APT29, also known as “the Dukes” or “Cozy Bear,” has targeted British, American and Canadian vaccine research and development organizations.
 

txpd

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The guy who invented Velcro founded Velcro. The scientist who comes up with a vaccine will make less 2020 and 2021 than Leipsic. The fact that 7 billion vaccine units are necessary, does that make you prefer it be the property of Merck rather than the country of Germany, if you were that scientist?

The guy that invented Velcro was actually a mountain climber and had nothing to do with NASA. As our president makes it clear how much he personally detests Chancellor Merkle and Germany and the EU, the more connection to the US the vaccine has the better off Americans will be.
 

Silky mitts

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The guy that invented Velcro was actually a mountain climber and had nothing to do with NASA. As our president makes it clear how much he personally detests Chancellor Merkle and Germany and the EU, the more connection to the US the vaccine has the better off Americans will be.
Velcro was founded before NASA, by a guy who created it. I’m saying in 2020 that person, working for 3M, wouldn’t even by guaranteed job security let alone a raise. And that makes it less likely an American company would be first to develop a vaccine.

A dramatically larger % of Americans will have COVID antibodies when a vaccine is available than any country other than Sweden, and this administration has sought to minimize the country’s impact on the global economy, it’s true it’s possible we could and probably should be at the end of the line
 

Silky mitts

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Again, this is not just hacking. It's state sponsored (or linked) cyber-corporate warfare.

If the hackers get the IP they aren't going to post it online. It becomes Russian property while others are behind pace in IP legal battles. Which means they secure all the patents wordlwide. And then no amount of free distribution of information will make the product cheaper to manufacture. It will become more expensive, for everyone. Including EU nations and anyone else that could have produced the drug.

This is why it's a problem.
I would assume the courts would take these charges when assigning patents, and the more direct threat to world health would be if the administration let a US pharmaceutical company charge whatever it wanted so long as the treatment was only distributed to Americans.
 

g00n

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The fact that this treatment from an American company costs $2340 is absolutely evidence a vaccine will cost a shitload if developed by an American company. That’s over a billion for Gilead, how much could that have cost to develop when they’ve been working on it 5 months max? Likely with a decreased workforce and payroll? How much is an acceptable level of profit for any of these companies? How much more could another entity charge? And I’m not saying it would be better if it came from a Russian “private” company, but I can’t see how the motivation of that investigation is anything other than protecting profits.

How has this affected you or anyone else so far? Not at all, other than the Health Department buying the drug in advance. That's not the FBI. That's not hacking by the Russians.

Remdesivir was not made in 5 months. It was used in 2014 and research goes back at least to 2012, probably earlier. It was developed in conjunction with he government so they have an interest in the drug as an R&D partner and probably preferential purchasing power as a result.

Remdesivir: A Review of Its Discovery and Development Leading to Emergency Use Authorization for Treatment of COVID-19

I'm not a fan of gouging or "big pharma" but unless you can produce the vaccine yourself you're going to have to deal with the cost of R&D, marketing, and everything else that comes along with it for now. Turning a blind eye to state sponsored cyber-corporate terrorism and espionage because you're pissed off about corporate profits is not the answer, especially when you don't have all the facts.
 
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Silky mitts

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How has this affected you or anyone else so far? Not at all, other than the Health Department buying the drug in advance. That's not the FBI. That's not hacking by the Russians.

Remdesivir was not made in 5 months. It was used in 2014 and research goes back at least to 2012, probably earlier. It was developed in conjunction with he government so they have an interest in the drug as an R&D partner and probably preferential purchasing power as a result.

Remdesivir: A Review of Its Discovery and Development Leading to Emergency Use Authorization for Treatment of COVID-19

I'm not a fan of gouging or "big pharma" but unless you can produce the vaccine yourself you're going to have to deal with the cost of R&D, marketing, and everything else that comes along with it for now. Turning a blind eye to state sponsored cyber-corporate terrorism and espionage because you're pissed off about corporate profits is not the answer, especially when you don't have all the facts.
How much did a treatment of that drug cost last year? If it costs the same I’m wrong.

And how did you feel about the FBI going after NCAA boosters? In the governments mind they were defrauding public institutes of revenue, though at least they didn’t go after the kids. It’s not just that they could have turned a blind eye, it just seemed like there were so other places all those hours could have made an impact
 

g00n

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How much did a treatment of that drug cost last year? If it costs the same I’m wrong.

How much have you paid for it? How about people you know?

Insurance pays for it depending on your plan and the cost is not out of line with similar drugs. That's a sad fact but it's still a fact.

What Remdesivir Cost Could Mean for Patients

And from the company:

An Open Letter from Daniel O’Day, Chairman & CEO, Gilead Sciences

They're charging below their normal pricing structure, below the typical metric for valuation, and making it more affordable to countries with lower buying power.
 

txpd

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How much did a treatment of that drug cost last year? If it costs the same I’m wrong.

And how did you feel about the FBI going after NCAA boosters? In the governments mind they were defrauding public institutes of revenue, though at least they didn’t go after the kids. It’s not just that they could have turned a blind eye, it just seemed like there were so other places all those hours could have made an impact

College boosters are a cesspool of corruption and illegal activity. That FBI level crimes were on the table is no shock.
 

kicksavedave

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How much have you paid for it? How about people you know?

Insurance pays for it depending on your plan and the cost is not out of line with similar drugs. That's a sad fact but it's still a fact.

What Remdesivir Cost Could Mean for Patients

And from the company:

An Open Letter from Daniel O’Day, Chairman & CEO, Gilead Sciences

They're charging below their normal pricing structure, below the typical metric for valuation, and making it more affordable to countries with lower buying power.

Thank you for posting this Goon. As an employee of Gilead, it pains me when people accuse it of "gouging" the public during this pandemic. Here are a few more facts:

Gilead started ramping up 24x7 production of Remdesivir way before any trials showed any results, on the mere potential that it could be impactful in treatment based on their own research, before they had any idea if they would ever get a penny back for the drug. They also, as you pointed out, priced it well below the pricing analysts suggestions and are giving away a bunch of it to countries that can't pay the US rates, just as they've given away many billions worth of AIDS treatments to 3rd world countries across the globe. $2350 for a potentially life saving medicine seems like the bargain of the century, and no, poor people who can't afford $2K will not be left to die, Gilead will give it away or the Govt will step in.

Finally, people who bemoan big pharma's profit levels often simply don't understand how the entire industry life-cycle works. No one starts a bio-pharma research company in their garage with a few grand from mom and pop like Jeff Bezos did with Amazon. It takes millions worth of equipment and talent just to get started with a minimum 10 year road-map to make a penny back - so it takes investors, massive investors, to even have the industry in the first place. No one invests millions/billions in private sector money without some expectation of a return some day. And because there is so much capital at risk, the typical life-cycle is that of the small pharma startup (with many millions already invested) after several years makes its way to "promising" in advance of any clinical trials. At this point they can continue to borrow a ton of money from investors to go from "promising" to stage 1, 2 and 3 trials and then finally to commercial sales, or they can be sold to a bigger more mature pharma that already have the organization to navigate through a giant mountain of regulation to get to the "commercial" phase. The original investors want their money back but the startup still needs a TON of capital to grow into ever making any money, if they ever do because most treatments go bust in trials, a small fraction even make it to commercial. So finally big pharma buys small pharma and dumps a ton of money into to to keep it growing. If big pharma was a non profit, or whatever smaller profit level the hysterical public thinks they deserve, then they don't have the money to buy small pharma, which trickles down to small pharma not having viable life-cycle to attract those initial investors in the first place.

So in the end, if people want to squeeze profit out of pharma, thats fine, here's what it will look like: Virtually no emerging medicines without full government funding, which means billions of taxpayer dollars at risk with minimal results. It would mean rare diseases get no attention - the government already jettisons the small vulnerable populations on a routine basis because they aren't a powerful voting block. There is a reason why most all significant innovations, such as curing AIDS which Gilead has basically done, come from the private sector with some help from govt research. Govt cannot fund research for everything we need, it has to work with the private sector. But there is no private sector without profit because there is no investment in anything without profit as the end reward. Want to duplicate the private sector investment in a non profit govt lead effort? How much are you willing to pay in increased income taxes for that shift? Answer, nothing. No one wants to pay more taxes and no politician who suggests a massive tax increase will get elected on that platform.

Finally, Gilead cured Hepatitis C, and made good money doing it, which funded other research, such as Remdesivir which was abandoned after SARs died off. But after a while, the combination of it being a full on cure and generics cut that profit margin significantly. If that initial profit was artificially restricted, Gilead likely could not have afforded to ramp up Remdesivir with no guarantee of a return on it. Big profit on one drug fuels investment in other drugs, or startups, most of which never make a dime. Its just not the same as selling TShirts on Amazon.
 
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CapitalsCupReality

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Plenty of good from big Pharma and plenty of price gouging too.

It’s criminal how much some meds that are keeping people alive cost. And I’m not speaking specifically about your company or any single entity....but the overall price structure of many life saving/impacting meds to the common man.
 
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g00n

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Thank you for posting this Goon. As an employee of Gilead, it pains me when people accuse it of "gouging" the public during this pandemic. Here are a few more facts:

Gilead started ramping up 24x7 production of Remdesivir way before any trials showed any results, on the mere potential that it could be impactful in treatment based on their own research, before they had any idea if they would ever get a penny back for the drug. They also, as you pointed out, priced it well below the pricing analysts suggestions and are giving away a bunch of it to countries that can't pay the US rates, just as they've given away many billions worth of AIDS treatments to 3rd world countries across the globe. $2350 for a potentially life saving medicine seems like the bargain of the century, and no, poor people who can't afford $2K will not be left to die, Gilead will give it away or the Govt will step in.

Finally, people who bemoan big pharma's profit levels often simply don't understand how the entire industry life-cycle works. No one starts a bio-pharma research company in their garage with a few grand from mom and pop like Jeff Bezos did with Amazon. It takes millions worth of equipment and talent just to get started with a minimum 10 year road-map to make a penny back - so it takes investors, massive investors, to even have the industry in the first place. No one invests millions/billions in private sector money without some expectation of a return some day. And because there is so much capital at risk, the typical life-cycle is that of the small pharma startup (with many millions already invested) after several years makes its way to "promising" in advance of any clinical trials. At this point they can continue to borrow a ton of money from investors to go from "promising" to stage 1, 2 and 3 trials and then finally to commercial sales, or they can be sold to a bigger more mature pharma that already have the organization to navigate through a giant mountain of regulation to get to the "commercial" phase. The original investors want their money back but the startup still needs a TON of capital to grow into ever making any money, if they ever do because most treatments go bust in trials, a small fraction even make it to commercial. So finally big pharma buys small pharma and dumps a ton of money into to to keep it growing. If big pharma was a non profit, or whatever smaller profit level the hysterical public thinks they deserve, then they don't have the money to buy small pharma, which trickles down to small pharma not having viable life-cycle to attract those initial investors in the first place.

So in the end, if people want to squeeze profit out of pharma, thats fine, here's what it will look like: Virtually no emerging medicines without full government funding, which means billions of taxpayer dollars at risk with minimal results. It would mean rare diseases get no attention - the government already jettisons the small vulnerable populations on a routine basis because they aren't a powerful voting block. There is a reason why most all significant innovations, such as curing AIDS which Gilead has basically done, come from the private sector with some help from govt research. Govt cannot fund research for everything we need, it has to work with the private sector. But there is no private sector without profit because there is no investment in anything without profit as the end reward. Want to duplicate the private sector investment in a non profit govt lead effort? How much are you willing to pay in increased income taxes for that shift? Answer, nothing. No one wants to pay more taxes and no politician who suggests a massive tax increase will get elected on that platform.

Finally, Gilead cured Hepatitis C, and made good money doing it, which funded other research, such as Remdesivir which was abandoned after SARs died off. But after a while, the combination of it being a full on cure and generics cut that profit margin significantly. If that initial profit was artificially restricted, Gilead likely could not have afforded to ramp up Remdesivir with no guarantee of a return on it. Big profit on one drug fuels investment in other drugs, or startups, most of which never make a dime. Its just not the same as selling TShirts on Amazon.


Now how the hell am I going to fit that on a bumper sticker?

"BILLIONAIRES SUCK! ACAB! STOP BIG PHARMA!!" fits, though.

lol

Our culture has become so shallow and extremist, I don't even know what to do with myself. Thanks for that post. I still don't like high Rx prices but I understand capex enough to not shit on innovative business or the risk factor. A blended solution is likely best, as in most sectors, with tax incentive for R&D.
 

kicksavedave

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Plenty of good from big Pharma and plenty of price gouging too.

It’s criminal how much some meds that are keeping people alive cost. And I’m not speaking specifically about your company or any single entity....but the overall price structure of many life saving/impacting meds to the common man.

Except its rarely the "common man" who is paying for those meds, its usually insurance, who has their own price gouging racket going on too. In the overwhelming majority of cases, if an individual has no insurance and cannot afford the life saving meds, the pharma company gives them to the patient for basically nothing. Gilead has given away billions in AIDS medication. They even invested over a billion dollar just to set up an organization who's sole purpose was to navigate the hundred different versions of the FDC internationally so that they could actually give away their medicine to those 3rd world countries that somehow still have medical regulation. Getting approval to give their drugs to African countries to slow their AIDS epidemic was an extraordinarily difficult process. Each country had their own hoops to jump through.

There is, without question though, too much profit in health care in general, it needs massive overhaul. But smart overhaul that doesn't cripple incentive to invest, either in a pharma startup, a rural hospital, or a family care physicians 12+ years of expensive education, is not an easy formula to settle on.
 

twabby

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There is, without question though, too much profit in health care in general, it needs massive overhaul. But smart overhaul that doesn't cripple incentive to invest, either in a pharma startup, a rural hospital, or a family care physicians 12+ years of expensive education, is not an easy formula to settle on.

Literally all of these things can be taken care of with public funds, progressive taxation, and cutting the federal budget in other areas such as the military and imperial activities abroad. Repealing the most recent tax cuts alone would pay for all of the medical research done in the United States (public and private) 3 times over per year, for instance. Tacking on a few percentage points to the highest marginal rate would pay for all post-graduate medical education and for building and running rural hospitals (which are closing now because they aren't profitable).
 
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