Coronavirus and the Washington Capitals Part 2

[g00n]

The italicized is absolutely accurate. The vaccine dramatically reduces negative outcomes of infection.

The bolded part is inaccurate. While a vaccinated person is less likely to get Covid, the actual breakthrough rate is not known.

From the CDC website:

• If you are fully vaccinated and become infected with the Delta variant, you can spread the virus to others.

So vaccination does not automatically provide protection from spreading Covid (hence the CDC's revised recommendations).

You really need to stay up to date on things.

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus.

This is why people care about variants, and the unvaccinated.

Data from multiple studies in different countries suggest that people vaccinated with Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine who develop COVID-19 have a lower viral load than unvaccinated people.(41-44) This observation may indicate reduced transmissibility, as viral load has been identified as a key driver of transmission.(45) Two studies from the United Kingdom found significantly reduced likelihood of transmission to household contacts from people infected with SARS-CoV-2 who were previously vaccinated for COVID-19.(25, 46)

Can you put this puzzle together yet? The more people resist vaccination the more variants emerge, and the more breakthrough cases there are. The more variants emerge, the less the vaccines help with transmission. The more breakthrough cases there are the more asymptomatic cases that MIGHT transmit the virus we have to worry about.

That means people resisting vaccination aid the spread (and mutations which increase viral load) which leads to EVERYONE having to mask again. Even if vaccinated people have less viral load (and therefore less ability to transmit the virus to others) it can't be ruled out. Lack of vaccination allows UNCHECKED viral load accumulation and mutation, which then ripples to the breakthrough cases by creating variants that can more quickly increase their viral load, even against vaccines (though they still produce less of the virus than the unvaccinated).

So AGAIN absent serious medical prohibitions failure to vaccinate is always bad. Always. Because vaccines take away the breeding ground that creates the dangerous variants.

But sure, let's blame the vaccines instead based on the idea that a 95% protection is worse than 0%. Makes a lot of sense.

 

[Eirikrautha]

You really need to stay up to date on things.

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus.

This is why people care about variants, and the unvaccinated.

Data from multiple studies in different countries suggest that people vaccinated with Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine who develop COVID-19 have a lower viral load than unvaccinated people.(41-44) This observation may indicate reduced transmissibility, as viral load has been identified as a key driver of transmission.(45) Two studies from the United Kingdom found significantly reduced likelihood of transmission to household contacts from people infected with SARS-CoV-2 who were previously vaccinated for COVID-19.(25, 46)

Can you put this puzzle together yet? The more people resist vaccination the more variants emerge, and the more breakthrough cases there are. The more variants emerge, the less the vaccines help with transmission. The more breakthrough cases there are the more asymptomatic cases that MIGHT transmit the virus we have to worry about.

That means people resisting vaccination aid the spread (and mutations which increase viral load) which leads to EVERYONE having to mask again. Even if vaccinated people have less viral load (and therefore less ability to transmit the virus to others) it can't be ruled out. Lack of vaccination allows UNCHECKED viral load accumulation and mutation, which then ripples to the breakthrough cases by creating variants that can more quickly increase their viral load, even against vaccines (though they still produce less of the virus than the unvaccinated).

So AGAIN absent serious medical prohibitions failure to vaccinate is always bad. Always. Because vaccines take away the breeding ground that creates the dangerous variants.

But sure, let's blame the vaccines instead based on the idea that a 95% protection is worse than 0%. Makes a lot of sense.

You are, once again asserting certainty where there is none. But that's what zealots do...

 

[Eirikrautha]

Statistics show the vax reduces the spread... The data is all right there.

Great. Then you should have no problem providing the breakthrough rate from a CDC source.

You know what, never mind. I couldn't care less what you think about this particular issue, because you haven't shown any willingness to actually think about it.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

This thread depresses me. Masks are coming back…..not going to change until more are vaccinated….sigh….

 

[TheLegendOfPatPeake]

Well considering the outbreaks these days are primarily within the unvaccinated seems like just deserts though admittedly that is harsh.

Harsh but true.

 

[txpd]

This thread depresses me. Masks are coming back…..not going to change until more are vaccinated….sigh….

Yea, but mah freedom. Rolling my eyes. I was looking forward to indoor restaurants. Thats off my list again and I am masking. I am back to avoiding people. Good news is that my health has improved enough for me to get back to my bike daily and doing miles. I can do that alone and without a mask

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Yea, but mah freedom. Rolling my eyes. I was looking forward to indoor restaurants. Thats off my list again and I am masking. I am back to avoiding people. Good news is that my health has improved enough for me to get back to my bike daily and doing miles. I can do that alone and without a mask

sheeple make me angry….sigh….

keep on moving brother….inactivity is death!

 

[g00n]

You are, once again asserting certainty where there is none. But that's what zealots do...

You keep calling me a zealot like it's an insult. I'm definitely a zealot when it comes to calling out disinformation. I don't tolerate viral stupidity and lies. And I don't apologize for that.

All you're doing is cherrypicking words and phrases that validate your beliefs while ignoring the rest, or looking for unlikely loopholes that allow you to attack consensus reality.

It's weird that you don't even know you're being lied to and manipulated.

 

[txpd]

sheeple make me angry….sigh….

keep on moving brother….inactivity is death!

The infuriating thing about this that THEY are convinced that its YOU that is the sheeple

 

[Eirikrautha]

All you're doing is cherrypicking words and phrases that validate your beliefs while ignoring the rest, or looking for unlikely loopholes that allow you to attack consensus reality.

There is no such thing as "consensus reality." There is just reality. No matter how many people told Galileo the consensus disagreed with him, reality agreed with him. Reality will out here, as well.

It's weird that you don't even know you're being lied to and manipulated.

I have a far greater chance of recognizing when I have been lied to than a self-proclaimed zealot (by definition, in fact). It's weird that you can't see that. But I'll bet on reality (and the fact that nature is messy and never simply black and white)...

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

It’s funny to see Zealot hurled repeatedly like it’s an offense.

Goon sorry, you’re a zealot for common sense and science.

 

[g00n]

There is no such thing as "consensus reality." There is just reality. No matter how many people told Galileo the consensus disagreed with him, reality agreed with him. Reality will out here, as well.



I have a far greater chance of recognizing when I have been lied to than a self-proclaimed zealot (by definition, in fact). It's weird that you can't see that. But I'll bet on reality (and the fact that nature is messy and never simply black and white)...

What "lie" has been told to you? What does anyone have to gain at this point by "lying" about the need for vaccines or masks?

Please elaborate.

 

[Eirikrautha]

What "lie" has been told to you? What does anyone have to gain at this point by "lying" about the need for vaccines or masks?

Please elaborate.

Lie#1: That I'm not wasting my time conversing with you.

 

[g00n]

Lie#1: That I'm not wasting my time conversing with you.

Ok. That was fun.

Now... Please explain this vast conthpirathy of lies that's in place for some unknown reason.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

It’s funny to see Zealot hurled repeatedly like it’s an offense.

Goon sorry, you’re a zealot for common sense and science.

He is the bizarro Jerry to the MAGA toolbags that think COVID vaccines will make them infertile. Calling him a zealot is being nice. He is a COVID Nutter.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Ok it’s depressing in here….later!

 

[Eirikrautha]

Ok. That was fun.

Now... Please explain this vast conthpirathy of lies that's in place for some unknown reason.

Why? We've already agreed it's a waste of time.

BTW, there's no conspiracy of lies. Just a bunch of people treating a momentary statement about an evolving situation as if it is an unchanging, absolute truth. Were you one of those folks that said there was no way Covid escaped from a lab (when that was the consensus, compared to the most recent recognition that it might be a possibility)? That the A-Z and Sinovacs were generally equal to the Pfizer/Moderna/J&J (didn't you assert that up thread)? There are other examples of early "consensus" that proved to be either in error or not so certain, but to a zealot, no uncertainty or change of mind is possible. So I'll leave you to your blind certainty. As always, reality will win, regardless of what either of us think.

 

[g00n]

Why? We've already agreed it's a waste of time.

BTW, there's no conspiracy of lies. Just a bunch of people treating a momentary statement about an evolving situation as if it is an unchanging, absolute truth. Were you one of those folks that said there was no way Covid escaped from a lab (when that was the consensus, compared to the most recent recognition that it might be a possibility)? That the A-Z and Sinovacs were generally equal to the Pfizer/Moderna/J&J (didn't you assert that up thread)? There are other examples of early "consensus" that proved to be either in error or not so certain, but to a zealot, no uncertainty or change of mind is possible. So I'll leave you to your blind certainty. As always, reality will win, regardless of what either of us think.

All this to cover up the fact that you're wrong about vaccines causing dangerous variants like Delta.

I said Covid was not MAN MADE and the lab escape theories were politically motivated and based on flimsy storytelling that was unproven. Any claim other than that is based on cherrypicked semantics. Right now there's no proof it came from a lab, just people saying "well, maybe, I guess we need to investigate fully".

And particularly ridiculous were the assertions that it was some kind of bioweapon, or product of some US Govt. conspiracy. It's always possible that some organic mutation escaped from a lab, but what difference does it make? None. It never made a difference other than to give some people a way to distract and deflect blame for the botched response and messaging.

I also never said the vaccines were all just as good. I posted a link refuting your theory about AZ creating some breeding ground for variants because it's "notoriously ineffective". It's almost exactly as effective as Pfizer at preventing hospitalizations, and is the same (100%) at preventing deaths. You posted a link from February, mine is from June. Evolving situation? Hmmm.

Look at what you write and look at yourself. You pivot now to some platform of "be open to change" but you won't accept the changes in guidance from the CDC are based on changing data and realities.

 

[Eirikrautha]

Also, the CDC recommendations in May came about with little notice and were clearly made for political reasons.

You pivot now to some platform of "be open to change" but you won't accept the changes in guidance from the CDC are based on changing data and realities.

The irony is palpable.

I'm done with your nonsense.

 

[TheLegendOfPatPeake]

He is the bizarro Jerry to the MAGA toolbags that think COVID vaccines will make them infertile. Calling him a zealot is being nice. He is a COVID Nutter.

Huh?

 

[g00n]

The irony is palpable.

I'm done with your nonsense.

You cannot be serious.

This was clearly about taking issue with the new mask guidance, not the shit I already talked about.

JFC

 

[g00n]

Experts: Delta Not Likely Causing More 'Breakthrough' COVID Cases, and Maybe Asymptomatic Cases Shouldn't Count

Some of these asymptomatic "positive" tests (like the athletes we read about) might actually be dead virus triggering the test results, per the link above.

Older versions of COVID definitely did not reproduce as fast as Delta, and viral load from older strains was low among the vaccinated. But Delta is an emerging story which is why the guidance is changing. There are indications that the viral loads from Delta are the same in the nose regardless of vaccination. More study is needed. Not sure if they're reading live or dead virus.

Good news is if you have the vax you're probably not going to get seriously ill or die, though some have. The question then is how much of that viral load is active, and how long does it live?

This is bad news for the unvaccinated, who provide fertile grounds for variants as the virus progresses to a more severe infection, and is all the more reason to get the shot. Even if the positive tests among the vaccinated are dead viruses there's still a window of time before the vaccine-boosted immune system kills all that off, which makes masking in some situations all the more important for everyone.

None of this means vaccines are causing variants. It seems to indicate vaccines are saving lives by preventing severe illness in most cases, just like vaccines are supposed to do.

But I'm willing to change my mind. If it's found that *dangerous* variants are coming about equally from vaccinated and unvaccinated, and the virus spreads the same among both groups, and kids are somehow safe as some claim, then I'll just mask up when I feel like it and wait for all the "my body, my choice" appropriating assholes and idiots to get to the "find out" part of FAFO.

But I doubt that's how it's going to go.

 

[HeyMattyB]

No matter how many people told Galileo the consensus disagreed with him, reality agreed with him.

Droppin' science like Galileo dropped the orange!

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

Huh?

You must be new around here.

 

[g00n]

You must be new around here.

Unlike a cagey veteran such as yourself who puts people on ignore because you can't handle being corrected with facts.