Corona Virus Thread Part 3 of ? (MOD NOTE IN OP)

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SensibleGuy

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It’s been used for 65 years. If it was a harmful drug I think we’d see some evidence by now. The use HCQ as a prophylactic is still under study. However there are, and will be, better therapeutic meds for covid.

there's lots of evidence that it's harmful in some circumstances and also lots of evidence that it does nothing for Covid. Therefore, no doctor should be prescribing it for Covid.
 
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Whileee

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It’s been used for 65 years. If it was a harmful drug I think we’d see some evidence by now. The use HCQ as a prophylactic is still under study. However there are, and will be, better therapeutic meds for covid.
Dosages differ. Also, when a drug has uncommon side effects, they are more likely to occur when you are treating a large number with higher doses.

Many who are at risk for more severe Covid disease also have some cardiac problems.

Covid can attack the heart, so it might exacerbate the effects of chloroquine.

In any case, a benefit to using chloroquine with COVID hasn't been demonstrated, so why take the risk?
 

Whileee

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Just curious... who is saying that China deliberately created and released the virus ? From what I’ve ever heard from the Trump administration is that the virus is a natural one and accidentally escaped from the Wuhan lab. The issue with China (and the WHO) is the attempted coverup of the incident and the misinformation that was given to the world.

A Timeline Of The COVID-19 Wuhan Lab Origin Theory
 

cbcwpg

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_________________________________________________

Yeah -- I'd do the same thing - never have worn a mask, and unless your system is weak, you should be just fine. :nod:

I guess they could be helpful if you have some health conditions - especially respiratory problems.

Actually if you have some respiratory problems, wearing an actual mask is bad for you. IE. People with Asthma have a great deal of problems if they have to wear a mask. Face covering like a scarf is O.K. but not a mask. It can restrict breathing too much.

But the thing to remember is wearing a mask or face covering is to stop you from spreading things if you are sick. It's not to stop you from catching something. In fact, it has nothing to do with Covid-19. If people would adopt a practice of wearing masks ( and washing their hands more ) when they are not feeling well for any cause, yet they are still compelled to leave their homes for going to work etc., you would see a huge reduction in things like the common cold and seasonal flu.

Viruses spread because people don't do enough to stop the spread when they are not well.
 

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Conversely I see this as tremendously problematic. There has been so much (near subliminal) marketing in mass media for so long on many subjects that the younger consumer base has been functionally brainwashed.

I'm going to step well outside the realm of Covid, so bear with me. I'm not going to post references but if anyone wants, they're either already somewhere in this thread or I'll provide them upon request.

By way of background, I grew up in the city (St. Vital so the Transcona people can be jealous) and have lived my entire life in Winnipeg, save a year in Australia. Somehow I was drawn to agriculture fairly early on (probably something to do with biology being scarce for work unless you're in agriculture). I've worked in Agriculture for over 25 years in extension, research and regulatory roles, usually all three at the same time. While my specialty is entomology I've worked with pathologists, agronomists, breeders and many more facets of agriculture than I can probably recall. I don't proclaim expertise in anything outside my field, but I've been exposed to a great many subjects in the broad field so I have a reasonable handle of what's going on.

One of the favorite phrases when I'm outside a major urban center is to refer to those living in said urban center as suffering from some derivation of the phrase "perimeter-itis". This is the Manitoba phrase for the rural-urban divide. The country folks think that the city is hellacious and everyone is utterly ignorant of agriculture. On the latter part they are largely correct and most people's perceptions of agriculture is only what hits the media. They don't actually understand how food is grown, what sort of stewardship programs are involved and in many cases how any of the processes actually work to the point where many think milk comes from the back of the grocery store (hyperbole, but you get the idea). I'm not contending that urban people are stupid, rather that they are disconnected and ignorant (again, not meant as insulting), much in the same way I shouldn't consider myself knowledgeable in engineering protocols. You don't want me telling you how to build a bridge.

I also have a daughter who is now of university age and I've watched a great many programs that I really don't have much interest in. Some were good (Kim Possible), some were bad (Hanna Montana) but there was a strong Disney flavor in there. Through the entire time I was observing children's programming, Disney has been mentioning organic food throughout. It's subtle, but consistently there. The basic premise/belief is that organic is perceived to be better for you. The rationale is that they don't use pesticides and that pesticides are very dangerous to consumers. Not Disney's rationale, but the primary marketing schemes function along those themes. That marketing/messaging has been going on for at least 20 years (my daughter's age) and probably considerably longer. I tend to notice it much more than anyone else because it's a pet peeve of mine.

Compare Costco to Superstore/Safeway/Sobey's. If you go into Costco you'll find probably 40-50% of their processed products are labeled as organic, as well as a smaller proportion of their fresh sales. If you go into any of the other three stores you'll find that the organic/natural sections represent somewhere in the range of </=10%. One of those numbers jives approximately correctly with how production is done in North America and really the rest of the world, though I confess I don't have Afghanistan's numbers at hand, for example. Less than 10% of grain, meat, produce is produced organically. There are multiple reasons for this, consistency of quality and yield being the two main issues; fear of a zero yield because control options are very limited in the case of a disease or insect outbreak. There's also a tremendous lack of consistency among various organic groups as to standards. They approximate, but in the U.S. for example there tends to be at least one oversight organic group per state and often more. They tend to model after OMRI.org more than anything else so it's a reasonable approximation of what's being done. If you know what you're looking for on OMRI's webpage you'll find multiple pesticides listed for acceptable use. They are allowed because they are of "natural" origin, usually, but not always meaning botanical origin (sulphur and copper obviously not fitting that). The problem is that natural does not equate to benign in any way, shape of form. But you'll run across arguments that will suggest we've evolved with them so they are safer. Poppycock! Lots of natural stuff will kill you quick as day to the point where natural is largely a meaningless word, but one that appears all over the place on food. Either way, organic production does allow for pesticide use, just a limited suite. If you want to get into the toxicology of it all, I'm afraid that it will paint a somewhat less friendly picture as well. But people don't really like toxicology because they tend to find that many things they consume (alcohol, sugar, caffeine, salt) are more often than not more toxic than the pesticides they are griping about. And if you're thinking that's not really part talk, whoo boy, you are right. People shut that shit down.

Going back to the media and tying in Disney, the primary thrust is that organic is good for you and the environment, better than conventionally grown food. But if you look at unbiased studies you'll find that nutritionally there isn't really any difference. Looking at equally unbiased studies you'll find that on average organic food yields about 2/3 or 67% of what conventional food does, meaning you need more land to produce the same amount of food. Where does that land come from? You aren't growing oranges in Arborg. So aren't we concerned about the environment? Of course, that's why we don't want pesticides. Right? Anyone see the conundrum here? But if we take groups of individuals to be the arbiters of what is right in the case of agriculture, we're now taking a generation that has grown up on social media, MSM (abbreviated for brevity, not as a pejorative), influencers and consensus thinking and they are going to dictate what is correct? You have just spelled out disaster for agriculture by using misinformation rather than sound thinking. The intention is noble but utterly lacking in factual basis.

Costco is the prime example of this sort of approach. They are very socially aware. When we get their magazine in the mail I read their articles and they are pushing an agenda that isn't sustainable, always trying to source organic food for everything. Well, I have news for you. Even though math is hard, if worldwide production of organic food is only at 10% and nearly 50% of the product at Costco is organic there's something going on that isn't above board. I have no doubt that Costco believes it's getting organic product (as an aside, next time you're in Safeway read the "Organics" label, you'll be a bit surprised) but the problem is they can't possibly be. Remember, all the other grocers are selling organic product and Whole Foods in the U.S. takes up a big share of the market. Where is the other 80% of the organic food sourced? I'll give you a hint: it's not from North America. Primarily the sources are China and Turkey. Though in Turkey's defense it's largely Russian product being moved through Turkey. It's labeled as organic, sold as organic and it's not. I've been to China and been in green houses where they've been spraying product on the produce. When we asked what it was they said fertilizer. Got news for you, most pesticides have pretty unique odors and we could easily tell what it was, and it wasn't fertilizer. It was reputedly an organic greenhouse.

Look through any social media, you'll find everyone talking about organic food, cosmetics, pillow cases. But look closely at your influencers - many if not most of them are deriving income from this. That's your trusted source?

Much of what we're being told these days is to sell product . It's why I so often use this video:


This new model you mention is popular and useful for corporations not because they're going to do good. They might believe it, but they'll often be wrong. The reality is that it comes with a built in marketplace. I've seen mommy-bloggers that have millions of followers that foist really shitty and inaccurate information on their followers. Those followers lap it up. If you're selling a product what's better than a spokesperson with 5 million unquestioning followers? Not much really and the expenditure to sponsor that influencer is infinitely smaller than any advertising campaign.

I'll leave you with this: you've seen the Triscuit ads for their Non-GMO project verified crackers, yes? Well in North America, the source for the grain that goes into those crackers, there isn't a single acre of GMO wheat in commercial production. It has not yet been approved. But that's what the public wants and what the company perceives the consumer wants. The problem is that it's about as meaningless as it could possibly be, because there isn't a cracker produced in North America using North American grown grain that has any GMO in it at all. Don't get me started on the word "natural".

Remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


love this post and chalk full of info. I will dive in and 100% agree on nutrition and misinformation. Everyone on line is an expert and it’s out of control but also hilarious to watch.

Interesting isn’t it when institutions like main stream media begin to break down and people lose trust in them where do people turn? Everyone seems to have an agenda.

The worlds biggest challenges often provide the worlds greatest opportunities. Back to a fully trusted News source without agenda or spin. IMO It’s definitely needed but can one make money at it? (Edit @Jetfaninflorida made a good comment about curation of current sources as an option)


I like how you speak to the science and it provides you a lens into how Large groups can chunk it pretty badly on false beliefs on agriculture.

Weaponizing influencers is becoming a cost effective model for expanding consumer base in business. Yes many times they are guns for hire but for the most part they are pennies on the dollar cost wise and it’s often more effective in targeted reach.

I have a few examples I have both lived through and have Researched but I have to Get my ass to work right now and will try to circle back later to discuss.
 
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SensibleGuy

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It isn't just outdoors that mask wearing is a problem in terms of heat. I've now switched from the limited number of left-over N95 masks we had at my workplace to a simple cloth balaclava for face covering when I'm working with clients. The N95s were monstrously hot and uncomfortable to work with...to the point that - combined with the extra difficulty they create in simply breathing normally - I actually was feeling sick after wearing them for a while. However, even the much less constrictive cloth covering still gets very hot underneath. It's a really difficult way to work...

Honestly though, under normal circumstances the benefit of a mask outdoors is basically nothing afaic. Try and avoid french kissing strangers and everything will likely be fine.
 

Jets 31

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It isn't just outdoors that mask wearing is a problem in terms of heat. I've now switched from the limited number of left-over N95 masks we had at my workplace to a simple cloth balaclava for face covering when I'm working with clients. The N95s were monstrously hot and uncomfortable to work with...to the point that - combined with the extra difficulty they create in simply breathing normally - I actually was feeling sick after wearing them for a while. However, even the much less constrictive cloth covering still gets very hot underneath. It's a really difficult way to work...

Honestly though, under normal circumstances the benefit of a mask outdoors is basically nothing afaic. Try and avoid french kissing strangers and everything will likely be fine.
I'll try but girls always want to do that with me right away. :laugh:
 

ERYX

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I also think we will bounce back economically much quicker. That is, not decades or generations, but say 2 years. We were enjoying a generationally-low unemployment rate before this of around 5.6%. I'm not sure if we will to get back there, but to get to around 7-8% may be quicker than some think.

On the positive side, I think we'll see businesses operate in newer (arguably better) ways ...

I like your positivity/optimism, sir. I sure hope you are right.

I personally don't see it, but I would absolutely be overjoyed to be wrong and see you proved right.
 
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Howard Chuck

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With all this talk about masks, has there been any direction from health officials that they are a requirement here in Manitoba? We still have no new cases and down to only 16 in the whole province. With hand washing and social distancing and the odds of actually encountering someone with the virus, it seems like an odd thing for people to focus on.

This seems to me to be something that’s being propagated by social media shaming and not a directive from health officials.
 

ERYX

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With all this talk about masks, has there been any direction from health officials that they are a requirement here in Manitoba? We still have no new cases and down to only 16 in the whole province. With hand washing and social distancing and the odds of actually encountering someone with the virus, it seems like an odd thing for people to focus on.

This seems to me to be something that’s being propagated by social media shaming and not a directive from health officials.

It seems like there has been a "one size fits all" approach pushed from the start of this thing. Everyone across the country was locked-down equally regardless of the reality on the ground in their regions. Similarly, it seems masks are being pushed? It could also be the media just being so focused on large centres like Toronto and Montreal and their coverage is overly influenced by those areas and they do not give more nuanced reporting/recommendations?
 

Buffdog

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16 confirmed active cases in Manitoba = 1/85,563 people. Since from what I can gather they're more for stopping the wearer from spreading than other people from being "spread upon", people must think that there is a chance that they are somehow one of the people who those 16 people infected and are asymptomatic

I personally won't look at you any differently should you choose to wear a mask (whether at home, in your car, on the sidewalk or at the store). BUT if you try to shame me because you think I should wear a mask because you think I may be an asymptomatic carrier based on the fact that there's a 1/85000 chance I came in contact with a confirmed case, I'll assume you are under informed and just participating in hivemind groupthink
 

sipowicz

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Down to 16 cases in Manitoba, total was less than 300, meanwhile down in Merika in a sleepy place called North Dakota, 45 NEW CASES yesterday alone with 2400 total cases! Quit touching everything in the All You Can Eat Buffet lines North Dakotans who like to feed by the pound!

Hey Bertha, I'm done right full but is that your fifth turkey drumstick, maybe I'll have a little nibble, no way Enis, I ain't full up yet, besides I'm only slightly over on my blood sugar!
 

Jetfaninflorida

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WTF? Post some good news around here and nobody wants to hear it, and line up to attack.

I'm not spinning anything. Something encouraging came from the WHO and I thought I'd share.

I'm fully expecting minor peaks in cases as restrictions are lifted and people become more complacent.

I sense that some people here are only gonna be happy if the bodies start piling up again. Sheesh.

From your post and framed as 'more good news': "WHO says that a second wave is "being increasingly ruled out""

Actual News Story: "prompt regrowth" of the cases of Covid expected by the WHO.

Another WHO source from yesterday where the WHO warns of an immediate second peak: https://nypost.com/2020/05/26/who-warns-of-immediate-second-peak-of-coronavirus/

Thanks for your disinformation.
 

Howard Chuck

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From your post and framed as 'more good news': "WHO says that a second wave is "being increasingly ruled out""

Actual News Story: "prompt regrowth" of the cases of Covid expected by the WHO.

Another WHO source from yesterday where the WHO warns of an immediate second peak: https://nypost.com/2020/05/26/who-warns-of-immediate-second-peak-of-coronavirus/

Thanks for your disinformation.
I don’t really want to wade into this, but just to play devil’s advocate, the linked article says there COULD be a second wave if affected areas open up too soon. They aren’t saying that there will or there won’t be a second wave or how large or small it may be if it happens. Just that areas have to plan according to how they are doing, which makes perfect sense to me.

All the better reason to allow each affected area to base their opening On their circumstances.
 

cbcwpg

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With all this talk about masks, has there been any direction from health officials that they are a requirement here in Manitoba? We still have no new cases and down to only 16 in the whole province. With hand washing and social distancing and the odds of actually encountering someone with the virus, it seems like an odd thing for people to focus on.

This seems to me to be something that’s being propagated by social media shaming and not a directive from health officials.

The current gov't of Canada statement on masks:

Wearing a homemade non-medical mask/facial covering in the community is recommended for periods of time when it is not possible to consistently maintain a 2-metre physical distance from others, particularly in crowded public settings, such as: stores. shopping areas. public transportation.

The current gov't of Manitoba statement on masks:

The evolving evidence on transmission of COVID-19 suggests that infected people may spread the virus without experiencing symptoms, or before symptoms begin. Choosing to wear a non-medical mask when visiting public places for essential trips (e.g., grocery stores, taking the bus) is one way to protect those around you. Wearing a non-medical mask is another way of covering your mouth and nose to prevent your respiratory droplets from spreading to others or landing on surfaces. A mask can reduce the chance that others are coming into contact with your respiratory droplets, in the same way as practicing cough etiquette by covering covering your mouth and nose with a tissue when coughing or sneezing, or coughing or sneezing into your sleeve.
 

Buffdog

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From your post and framed as 'more good news': "WHO says that a second wave is "being increasingly ruled out""

Actual News Story: "prompt regrowth" of the cases of Covid expected by the WHO.

Another WHO source from yesterday where the WHO warns of an immediate second peak: https://nypost.com/2020/05/26/who-warns-of-immediate-second-peak-of-coronavirus/

Thanks for your disinformation.
You'll see things the way you want to, and call anyone who sees them differently as "disinforming" people. Must be nice to have a monopoly on the truth. Enjoy your day.
 
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KCjetsfan

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I don’t really want to wade into this, but just to play devil’s advocate, the linked article says there COULD be a second wave if affected areas open up too soon. They aren’t saying that there will or there won’t be a second wave or how large or small it may be if it happens. Just that areas have to plan according to how they are doing, which makes perfect sense to me.

All the better reason to allow each affected area to base their opening On their circumstances.

one flaw in that thinking though is assuming people don't travel. Not saying I completely disagree, but that's a bit of the wild card. to some extent you also have to plan based on how areas in your proximity are doing, which is difficult both to implement and to get buy in.

i'd imagine for you guys that would mean keeping the US border closed for some time would be a prudent thing.
 

Whileee

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It's a bit odd that many who are strong advocates of opening things up also seem the least likely to support the use of masks. Wearing a mask doesn't affect businesses or economic activity, and in fact could limit spread and improve conditions for opening up. When it comes to limiting an epidemic, every action that reduces the probability of transmission will have an impact, so it makes sense to use tactics that are less consequential for economic activity.
 

Howard Chuck

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one flaw in that thinking though is assuming people don't travel. Not saying I completely disagree, but that's a bit of the wild card. to some extent you also have to plan based on how areas in your proximity are doing, which is difficult both to implement and to get buy in.

i'd imagine for you guys that would mean keeping the US border closed for some time would be a prudent thing.
Agreed.
 

Howard Chuck

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It's a bit odd that many who are strong advocates of opening things up also seem the least likely to support the use of masks. Wearing a mask doesn't affect businesses or economic activity, and in fact could limit spread and improve conditions for opening up. When it comes to limiting an epidemic, every action that reduces the probability of transmission will have an impact, so it makes sense to use tactics that are less consequential for economic activity.
My position is that we should open slowly as we are and watch numbers if we need to readjust.

My position on masks is that they should be used where appropriate like in a transit bus or a store that is over capacity ( shouldn’t be happening). Somewhere where you can’t properly social distance or if you suspect in the slightest that you are ill.

I don’t believe that going to sobeys or Costco in Winnipeg without a mask is going to make any difference to anyone. Correction, there may be an infinitesimal Almost unmeasurable benefit.

Don’t get me wrong, I won’t put anyone at risk and I’ll do what I need to do, I just don’t agree that here in Manitoba that we are at the point of needing them.

remember flatten the curve, not eliminate.
 

Eyeseeing

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Down to 16 cases in Manitoba, total was less than 300, meanwhile down in Merika in a sleepy place called North Dakota, 45 NEW CASES yesterday alone with 2400 total cases! Quit touching everything in the All You Can Eat Buffet lines North Dakotans who like to feed by the pound!

Hey Bertha, I'm done right full but is that your fifth turkey drumstick, maybe I'll have a little nibble, no way Enis, I ain't full up yet, besides I'm only slightly over on my blood sugar!
......Bertha get me a diet soda would ya:sarcasm:
 

Howard Chuck

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one flaw in that thinking though is assuming people don't travel. Not saying I completely disagree, but that's a bit of the wild card. to some extent you also have to plan based on how areas in your proximity are doing, which is difficult both to implement and to get buy in.

i'd imagine for you guys that would mean keeping the US border closed for some time would be a prudent thing.
It’s too bad because I love taking trips to the US. Guess it’s going to be a while before that happens again.
 
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