Speculation: Core Guys, Helpers, Wait and See, On the cheap, Time to Move on

[blues hillbilly]

Pisser of a first post for me but that's where we're at. Seven spots on my roster open next year. Money to do some things. Trades to make. Hang on to the youth where possible.

Core Guys-No trade unless they give us their first born male

ROR
Tarastinko
Schwartz
Schenn
Thomas
Parayko

Helpers-Move only for a high price

Perron
Bozak

Hanger Onners-Wait and See

Fabs
Barby
Dunn
Schmaltz
Sanford
Eddie

On the Cheap/Keep

Maroon
Gunner
Bortuzzo
Blais

Time to Move On

Pietro-Get the best price now, wouldn't resign him for big $s
Allen-Minimize the pain
Steen-Thanks for the memories
Bouw-No thanks
Soshnikov-Seen enough, blocking youth
Sundy-Nope, blocking youth
CJ-Bye, blocking youth

Click to read more...

 

[BlueDream]

Here's my list:

Core

ROR
Tarasenko
Schwartz
Schenn
Thomas
Parayko
Pietrangelo
Edmundson

Hanger Onners-Wait and See (no real point in moving these guys unless we get a really good offer or they bust; right now they are good cheap depth)

Fabbri
Barbashev
Dunn
Schmaltz
Sanford
Sundqvist
Bortuzzo

Expendable

Allen
Johnson
Bouwmeester
Gunnarsson
Bozak
Maroon
Soshnikov
Perron
Steen
Entire coaching staff

 

[blues hillbilly]

Wouldn't quibble over the differences. We have some quality in the hanger onners and expendables. That, to me, is a positive on our overall talent.

 

[542365]

My list:

Core:
ROR

Expendable:
Everyone else in the organization, prospects included.

ROR is the only guy that I don’t think we can realistically improve the team by moving. Pietrangelo, Tarasenko, Schwartz and the young guys(Thomas, Kyrou, Husso, Bokk) would take a nice piece in return, but not untouchable. Nobody should really be untouchable on a team that missed the playoffs last year and are currently bottom five in the league. Clearly something isn’t working and needs to change.

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

I'll drop it to three groups, keep, can go, MUST go.

KEEP:
O'Reilly
Tarasenko
Thomas
Kyrou
Schenn
Fabbri
Parayko
Edmundson
Dunn
Schmaltz
Sanford
Barbashev
Bozak

CAN GO:
Pietrangelo
Schwartz
Perron
Gunnarsson
Bortuzzo
Soshnikov
Sundqvist

Blais
Coaching Staff

MUST GO:
Steen
Maroon
Allen
Johnson
Bouwmeester

 

[Thallis]

Must Keep:
Tarasenko
Pietrangelo
Schwartz
ROR
Thomas
Parayko
Kyrou

Anyone else can be had for the right deal

 

[AjaxManifesto]

3 guys (3 & 4 liners) I would like to keep besides the obvious:

Sunny
Barbie
Sanford

 

[KingBran]

My list:

Core:
ROR

Expendable:
Everyone else in the organization, prospects included.

ROR is the only guy that I don’t think we can realistically improve the team by moving. Pietrangelo, Tarasenko, Schwartz and the young guys(Thomas, Kyrou, Husso, Bokk) would take a nice piece in return, but not untouchable. Nobody should really be untouchable on a team that missed the playoffs last year and are currently bottom five in the league. Clearly something isn’t working and needs to change.

This!

Tarasenko is one of the most frustrsting players I have ever seen play the game! Hes so freaking good but makes so many frustrating plays. Like drop passes when he has a clean shot. He needs to be so much more selfish and he would be among the leagues elite. But he tries too hard to be a good teammate and second-guesses his choice to shoot or pass. Its so... frustrating really is the best word to describe how I feel about him.

 

[bleedblue1223]

It's not that I make everyone available, but I listen to all deals on anyone. There are still some I wouldn't trade or it would take overpayment, but Army has to figure out what is out there, but he also shouldn't make a trade just to make a trade, have a purpose behind it.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I don't have a keep list so much as not wanting to see players moved and shuffled around if the basic needs of a change in goal and a top 4 LHD are not addressed. If the team undertakes different moves to 'shake up' the core, but ignore those 2 needs, I'm ambivalent about any player being traded. But I have no objection to any single player being traded if the result is a better team and foundation going forward.

 

[Celtic Note]

No one is untouchable. But, I am not moving players just to move them.

 

[blues hillbilly]

The above simplification makes sense. This trade deadline and offseason can spin off in many directions.

Might be a wild ride or do they trust Army, only the Shadow knows.

 

[Majorityof1]

Having a list of players that is expendable for whatever you can get is how we got where we are now. Its horrific strategic planning. Before you start naming players who need to go, management needs to ask and answer some fundamental questions.

- Who is going to coach this team and what style of team supports their strategy?
- What style of play do we have the pieces to support and be successful?
- Based on those two factors, what style of play/team are we going to build?
- Which players do we have to support that style of play? What players do not fit?
- What gaps exist on our current team that are essential be successful with the chosen strategy?
- What players may be available to fill those gaps?
- Which current assets can we leverage to get those potentially available players?

Without answering any of these questions, plus many more, a simple list of who is core/expendable/out-the-door is less than useless. Let's take a player that is already gone, Jaskin. We started the season with 4 scoring lines and looking to be faster on every line. Jaskin did not fit that strategy, so we waived him and lost him. No big deal. However, when some of the kids showed they weren't ready and some other injuries hit, we needed to move back to a more traditional 4th line with Sundqvist and Barbashev (who despite having the potential to be on s scoring line is focusing on traditional 4th line skills). If we want to play a style with a 4th line that hits, maintains position and is tough to play against, Jaskin is an actual loss. Maybe not a big one, but still a player that would fit with that role better than some guys we are plugging on that line now.

We have no identity because we had no clear strategy in building this team. We were at our best when the team bought in to a clear strategy (cue Hitch "More Buy-in"), but we never had the personnel to fully support any one strategy, We are drafting for one thing and trading for another and have a coach who preaches yet another. The GM waivers from one direction to the next based on what team won the cup the year before and/or what team kicked our ass in the playoffs. So we have a roster that is neither fast, nor big nor supremely skilled on the whole despite a whole bunch of good individual parts. An example, we targeted a goalie who's weaknesses are exacerbated by our defensive strategy in Miller, and then double downed on tabbing a goalie with similar issues as our future in Allen. We need to step back and see what type of team we can build with the pieces we have. Then we can shape this mess into that using strategic cuts rather than chopping up big swaths out of the team willy-nilly based on who happens to have had a bad game last week. If that's the approach, just trade em all and rebuild from the ground up.

 

[ZigZagBluesFan]

Couldn't agree with Majorityof1. Even going into last season it seemed like the team was unable to commit to an identity. Do you want to be physical and very strong on D? Do you want to be fast and skilled on O? Because we're neither.

Physical teams punch us in the mouth. Speedy, skilled teams skate circles around us.

 

[MissouriMook]

At this point I am much more concerned about who we bring in. There isn't anyone on the roster that I wouldn't move for the right player. I'm not sure we have a vision about what this team should be by the end of the year to trust that we can make the right moves to sharpen an identity for this club. We need to be harder to play against, that's for sure, but I fear we might go back to getting bigger instead of getting faster (and playing faster). Both can be equally "hard to play against."

Who could possibly be available that would make this team better? Once you answer that question, then you can decide what you're willing to move to get them. I have a lot of concerns about holes in Willy Nylander's game and the money he is going to expect on his deal, but you can't argue that he wouldn't make us faster. Maybe targeting a guy like him isn't so silly after all if the money can be managed.

 

[steinerecliner]

Pisser of a first post for me but that's where we're at. Seven spots on my roster open next year. Money to do some things. Trades to make. Hang on to the youth where possible.

Core Guys-No trade unless they give us their first born male

ROR
Tarastinko
Schwartz
Schenn
Thomas
Parayko

Helpers-Move only for a high price

Perron
Bozak

Hanger Onners-Wait and See

Fabs
Barby
Dunn
Schmaltz
Sanford
Eddie

On the Cheap/Keep

Maroon
Gunner
Bortuzzo
Blais

Time to Move On

Pietro-Get the best price now, wouldn't resign him for big $s
Allen-Minimize the pain
Steen-Thanks for the memories
Bouw-No thanks
Soshnikov-Seen enough, blocking youth
Sundy-Nope, blocking youth
CJ-Bye, blocking youth

This would be my list. But Eddie would be in my core list more so when Pietro. Since he been one of the better defensive players all year, Colton been hit or miss so far. People give me shit for Steen when I say move him. My reason is simply he not the player he was 4 years ago. He aging, he still has some value, and is a contract. He the kind of guy you can move to bring up a Kyrou. Add some cap room to maybe fine a true elite goalie. CJ just not good even as a backup anymore. He had a spark in one game but mostly been blah. Husso is still up in the air if he can be THE guy. Sundy been good for a cheap, and saw a lot of improvement from last year. He young and apart of the youth so kind of the face with him at the moment.

 

[blues hillbilly]

Majority of 1. Good post. Thank you.

However, we really don't know any of the answers to your questions? As your last paragraph insinuated maybe we don't even know the answer to the GM which is usually the first personnel action to meet some goal? I doubt if there is some sort of master plan to the Stanley Cup, Army and the coaches seem to operate from the seat of their pants. Can't look to the press for answers because they are useless as tits on a boar hog and for whatever reason unable or unwilling to ask any tough questions. The HOFamer, Panger and Kelly won't bite the hand that feeds them, so all you get is what is blowing in the wind. Ain't nobody asked me for the master plan.

Berube gets his chance and we see how that goes and try to figure out what has changed if anything. Probably get some new hire coach is my guess with limited info.

For the most part, all we as fans can do is evaluate play, players and contracts. Army will do something as far as players go before the trade deadline without us knowing any of your qI wouldn't describe any actions of fans as useless under any circumstances considering this mess when expectations were built so high.

If I was to wrap the Blues up in one song it would be: "wasted days and wasted nights."

 

[Ted Hoffman]

No one is untouchable. But, I am not moving players just to move them.

That's my position. Until I know who the next HC is going to be and what style he wants to play, I have no idea if I want to move some of the oft-derided names [other than Allen]. I don't want to make a move just to make a move, then have the HC come in and say damn it, I really wish you hadn't traded [player], he would have been great for what I want to do.

 

[steinerecliner]

Majority of 1. Good post. Thank you.

However, we really don't know any of the answers to your questions? As your last paragraph insinuated maybe we don't even know the answer to the GM which is usually the first personnel action to meet some goal? I doubt if there is some sort of master plan to the Stanley Cup, Army and the coaches seem to operate from the seat of their pants. Can't look to the press for answers because they are useless as **** on a boar hog and for whatever reason unable or unwilling to ask any tough questions. The HOFamer, Panger and Kelly won't bite the hand that feeds them, so all you get is what is blowing in the wind. Ain't nobody asked me for the master plan.

Berube gets his chance and we see how that goes and try to figure out what has changed if anything. Probably get some new hire coach is my guess with limited info.

For the most part, all we as fans can do is evaluate play, players and contracts. Army will do something as far as players go before the trade deadline without us knowing any of your qI wouldn't describe any actions of fans as useless under any circumstances considering this mess when expectations were built so high.

If I was to wrap the Blues up in one song it would be: "wasted days and wasted nights."

From where I'm sitting I'm leaning to Berube isn't the guy while it's only been about a week of games, to much been the same. It's hard to know what move to make at the deadline if you not sure who is you hopefully long term coach is going to be. However even if you say trade Allen in a package for Howard which was a rumor, that would only help in dumping a contract because Howard is a 34 rental so the off season would mean you have no NHL experienced goalie since Chad Johnson is also a free agent. So you would have to sign someone else and figure out what Husso is going to be in this club before signing a possible starter. As well as figure out your defense being half you guys are free agents and not even sure any of them are keepers.

 

[HighNote]

No
Pietrangelo
Tarasenko
O'Reilly
Thomas

Move only for an offer we can't refuse
Schwartz
Parayko
Edmundson

Definitely trade-able, but I'd rather not
Perron
Fabbri
Barbashev
Dunn

Don't really care
Bozak
Schmaltz
Sanford
Maroon
Gunnarsson
Bortuzzo
Blais
Soshnikov
Sundqvist
Johnson

We need to move on from these guys
Bouwmeester
Allen

That leaves Steen.

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

Having a list of players that is expendable for whatever you can get is how we got where we are now. Its horrific strategic planning. Before you start naming players who need to go, management needs to ask and answer some fundamental questions.

- Who is going to coach this team and what style of team supports their strategy?
- What style of play do we have the pieces to support and be successful?
- Based on those two factors, what style of play/team are we going to build?
- Which players do we have to support that style of play? What players do not fit?
- What gaps exist on our current team that are essential be successful with the chosen strategy?
- What players may be available to fill those gaps?
- Which current assets can we leverage to get those potentially available players?

Without answering any of these questions, plus many more, a simple list of who is core/expendable/out-the-door is less than useless. Let's take a player that is already gone, Jaskin. We started the season with 4 scoring lines and looking to be faster on every line. Jaskin did not fit that strategy, so we waived him and lost him. No big deal. However, when some of the kids showed they weren't ready and some other injuries hit, we needed to move back to a more traditional 4th line with Sundqvist and Barbashev (who despite having the potential to be on s scoring line is focusing on traditional 4th line skills). If we want to play a style with a 4th line that hits, maintains position and is tough to play against, Jaskin is an actual loss. Maybe not a big one, but still a player that would fit with that role better than some guys we are plugging on that line now.

We have no identity because we had no clear strategy in building this team. We were at our best when the team bought in to a clear strategy (cue Hitch "More Buy-in"), but we never had the personnel to fully support any one strategy, We are drafting for one thing and trading for another and have a coach who preaches yet another. The GM waivers from one direction to the next based on what team won the cup the year before and/or what team kicked our ass in the playoffs. So we have a roster that is neither fast, nor big nor supremely skilled on the whole despite a whole bunch of good individual parts. An example, we targeted a goalie who's weaknesses are exacerbated by our defensive strategy in Miller, and then double downed on tabbing a goalie with similar issues as our future in Allen. We need to step back and see what type of team we can build with the pieces we have. Then we can shape this mess into that using strategic cuts rather than chopping up big swaths out of the team willy-nilly based on who happens to have had a bad game last week. If that's the approach, just trade em all and rebuild from the ground up.

I do agree with you that management needs to answer those questions, especially the first two. But I disagree that there can't be players moved before that happens. You could probably safely trade any pending UFA on this team right now and not have it severely affect this team or future direction. The going rate for many of these pending UFAs are draft picks anyway, sometimes a prospect like last year with Foley, but right now, this team needs some picks. There are only two other players who aren't UFAs that I think you could move for a culture change or different look and again, not greatly affect what plan or strategy comes later. I could be wrong on that and I'm sure many here would disagree on at least one of those two players. The core and future of this team are the players you can't start moving without a firm strategy in mind.

I don't think you could move anyone from the group of Pietrangelo, Edmundson, Parayko, Tarasenko, O'Reilly, Schenn, Schwartz, Perron, Fabbri, or Bozak, which I would say is the current core. Thomas, Kyrou, Kostin, Bokk, Dunn, Schmaltz, Walman, Mikkola, Husso, and Binnington (potentially) are who I would consider future. You can't really move any of them without having a clear strategy and direction you want the team to go.

The depth that you'd need to consider on who you want to fill in the bottom 6 are Sundqvist, Blais, Barbashev, and Soshnikov.

That leaves Bortuzzo, Steen, Bouwmeester, Allen, Gunnarsson, and Maroon and you're probably not going to get a huge return for any of them. Steen would be a culture shock/leadership change. Allen is obvious because of his struggles, a change of scenery candidate potentially. Bouwmeester, Gunnarsoon, Bortuzzo, or Maroon could just fetch a 3rd to 6th round pick and since the Blues potentially don't have a first this year, I would think recouping a bunch of other picks couldn't hurt. Obviously you can't trade them all since you'd open up too many holes on the team, especially defense, but I think you could trade a few and be ok.

 

[Majorityof1]

I do agree with you that management needs to answer those questions, especially the first two. But I disagree that there can't be players moved before that happens. You could probably safely trade any pending UFA on this team right now and not have it severely affect this team or future direction. The going rate for many of these pending UFAs are draft picks anyway, sometimes a prospect like last year with Foley, but right now, this team needs some picks. There are only two other players who aren't UFAs that I think you could move for a culture change or different look and again, not greatly affect what plan or strategy comes later. I could be wrong on that and I'm sure many here would disagree on at least one of those two players. The core and future of this team are the players you can't start moving without a firm strategy in mind.

I don't think you could move anyone from the group of Pietrangelo, Edmundson, Parayko, Tarasenko, O'Reilly, Schenn, Schwartz, Perron, Fabbri, or Bozak, which I would say is the current core. Thomas, Kyrou, Kostin, Bokk, Dunn, Schmaltz, Walman, Mikkola, Husso, and Binnington (potentially) are who I would consider future. You can't really move any of them without having a clear strategy and direction you want the team to go.

The depth that you'd need to consider on who you want to fill in the bottom 6 are Sundqvist, Blais, Barbashev, and Soshnikov.

That leaves Bortuzzo, Steen, Bouwmeester, Allen, Gunnarsson, and Maroon and you're probably not going to get a huge return for any of them. Steen would be a culture shock/leadership change. Allen is obvious because of his struggles, a change of scenery candidate potentially. Bouwmeester, Gunnarsoon, Bortuzzo, or Maroon could just fetch a 3rd to 6th round pick and since the Blues potentially don't have a first this year, I would think recouping a bunch of other picks couldn't hurt. Obviously you can't trade them all since you'd open up too many holes on the team, especially defense, but I think you could trade a few and be ok.

Agreed for the most part. That's not the point of this thread though. We don't need a whole thread to say we should move JBO and Gunnarsson, or even Allen and Maroon if anybody would give us picks for them. 90+% of us could agree on that. People in this thread are making decisions on long-term pieces with no indication on how moving that player that would further a long-term strategy, much less what that strategy is or what returns we should be targeting. I just don't think that is a) how good teams are run, or even b) a productive conversation for the forums. To me this thread is more "Rank Players by your knee-jerk disappointment level" as opposed to "Who is our core we should build around".

 

[blues hillbilly]

#1. Before anyone gets a description of style of team play, Army will have moved on some player. May/may not be a core player I list but maybe someone's elses.

The point was to classify/value players; core players being the most important. I can think of no more productive conversation for the forums. In fact, it's the #1, #1.