embracedbias
Registered User
Should they though? Why not spread the offense, lower likelihood of injuries, and keep the players fresh for playoffs?
Line Combos: Convince me otherwise
- Thread starter embracedbias
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Should they though? Why not spread the offense, lower likelihood of injuries, and keep the players fresh for playoffs?
embracedbias
Registered User
Mess
Global Moderator
Not enough minutes in a regulation game to allow a 4th line to be a factor.
Matthews Line : 18 minutes
Kadri Line: 18 minutes
Bozak Line: 16 minutes
4th line : 8 minutes
Total TOI/g = 60 minutes
Really no value stripping Leafs 2 X top lines down to 16 minutes to play your 4th line 12 minutes. You want your best players getting 18-20 minutes a night.
That is why a 4th line is mainly your grinders and PKers to get their 8-12 minutes of TOI/g.
Mess
Global Moderator
Well you wanted convincing why your idea is not likely to fly.
Your strategy would be to better build 3 X high powered lines giving them all 18 minutes a night and rotating them.
That = 54 minutes of 60 minutes and use your 4th line the balance of the 6 minutes or less remaining.
Why would you want to take TOI/g away from Matthews, Nylander and Marner etc in order to play a 4th line with Marleau on it, and if he is your highest paid player you want him getting 14+ minutes a night not the basic 6-8 minutes a 4th line gets?.
Break down the icetime per line and you will see a 3 line and not a 4 line strategy works better with talented offensive players.
Tall Morty
Visualize the action to actualize the vision
- Apr 18, 2017
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I like the concept. Very cool, and would keep everyone accountable. The downside being if all 4 lines were on fire, I could see it being frustrating for whichever one is playing well, but is still not getting as much ice time.
I think people are quick to scoff at it because traditionally fourth lines are shutdown lines, but things grow and change all the time (like how using 4 forwards and 1 D on the PP is the norm now, whereas before it was considered too risky.)
Like I said, I think it's a really cool idea, and one that we might see teams start to implement in the future as the league gets further away from fighting.
embracedbias
Registered User
Well you wanted convincing why your idea is not likely to fly.
Your strategy would be to better build 3 X high powered lines giving them all 18 minutes a night and rotating them.
That = 54 minutes of 60 minutes and use your 4th line the balance of the 6 minutes or less remaining.
Why would you want to take TOI/g away from Matthews, Nylander and Marner etc in order to play a 4th line with Marleau on it, and if he is your highest paid player you want him getting 14+ minutes a night not the basic 6-8 minutes a 4th line gets?.
Break down the icetime per line and you will see a 3 line and not a 4 line strategy works better with talented offensive players.
First thing we should get out of the way is that the ES lines won't change PP or PK icetime.
ES TOI per game looked like this last year:
Hyman (13:44) - Matthews (15:09) - Nylander (13:38)
JVR (13:26) - Bozak (13:58) - Marner (14:17)
Komarov (12:51) - Kadri (14:21) - Brown (12:58)
Martin (8:32) - Boyle (10:10)/Smith (9:18)/Gauthier (8:33) - Soshnikov (9:05)
Even using the same scheme as last year, Marleau is looking at about 2:30 minutes less ES as the "4th line" C as the "3rd line" LW.
However, this is not taking into account my idea that icetime for the lines would change depending on performance on any given night. One could easily imagine a couple of minutes per night being pulled from the Matthews/Bozak/Kadri lines (in total... i.e., 40 seconds a night from each. Or maybe a minute from Bozak's line and 45 seconds from Kadri's and 15 from Matthews', etc.).
And, anyway, this is until some sort of injury occurs.
Plenty of icetime to go around and having 4 lines that can genuinely score would be hell to defend against.
It's a good idea.
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embracedbias
Registered User
I could see it being frustrating for Marleau. But he would be getting PP time. And, anyway, he's 38 years old and we need him fresh for the playoffs.
Yes, I agree with Mess - it's kind of what I was wanting to say in my first response post - there isn't enough ice time to go around basically for 4 lines. Giving ALL lines equal time is a nice concept in theory, but, you end up shortchanging your one or two best lines in order to do it!
It might be (or some version of it) strategy for teams that do NOT have big differences in talent between their 1st and 4th lines though- maybe!
Apotheosis
Registered User
I really like this. I still hold the same opinion for the more distant future in wanting to see Matthews-Marner and Nylander centring his own line, but I really like this set up.
Matthews and Nylander have shown insane chemistry so far.
Marleau is just as good of a finisher as JVR, but better defensively and Kadri the same as Bozak in this comparison but better offensively AND defensively which not only gives Marner defensive coverage and ability to learn to play even better defence, but his numbers probably shoot up.
I also like this. It shelters JVR and Bozak giving them favourable match-ups and Brown is a better defensive forward than Marner.
The last line is the only line I don't like. Would prefer Aaltonen for skating and offensive ability over Moore.
Crispy Crust
Registered User
I want to see that JVR/Bozak/Marner line split up. It's not going to happen, but maybe put JVR on the top line with Matthews and Nylander, and slot Marner alongside Kadri and Marleau. Give Bozak Hyman and Brown/Komarov on his wings.
marleau as the 4C isn't a good idea. the leafs need lw and that's his natural position so keep him there. i'd put moore as the 4C instead. i like the idea that martin is a healthy scratch. this lineup could work if the forwards were playing roughly 15 minutes a game. very balanced idea.
That "3-Fin" line of Kapanen-Aaltonen-Komorov is something I've been thinking of for a while now…
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jvr and bozak had careers years alongside marner so they should be kept there
When has Marleau played centre? Why would we use him at centre when we have actual centres to play there? What makes you think he would be better as a centre? Why would we waste Marleau playing on the 4th line? This is profoundly dumb.
He doesn't need to be relegated to 4th line minutes to be "fresh" for the playoffs. He is perfectly capable of playing top 6 minutes.
So, you think Marleau should be played as a 4th line C because:
1. He can allegedly play centre. Despite the fact that he's obviously better as a winger, and we have easily better alternatives to fulfill the duties of a 4th line centre.
2. It will spread out scoring. The scoring is already well balanced. Teams don't chuck their best offensive players on the 4th line for this inane reason.
3. Playing less minutes will keep him fresh. Despite that up until this point in his career this hasn't been a problem, his conditioning is great, and he still skates well.
You've convinced yourself that this is clever. It isn't. It's stupid.
Crispy Crust
Registered User
They're fun to watch offensively when they're rolling, but they leave a lot to be desired defensively. It's better to maybe swap either JVR or Marner for a more defensively responsible player on that line.
FlareKnight
Registered User
I do like the gutsy idea of adding that much skill to the fourth line.
But I also agree with those who don't see that lineup happening. Martin is going to be in the lineup. That's just happening. Babcock wants him there and he's played well enough in the preseason that I don't see anything changing in the coach's mind. And there is the issue of icetime. The top 3 lines are strong enough offensively that you want them out there as much as you can. While you can bulk up the fourth line and shift bodies around....that's going to eat into the ice time of the other lines.
Fourth line C is going to be a guy like Aaltonen, Moore, or maybe Fehr. Not Marleau.
But I also agree with those who don't see that lineup happening. Martin is going to be in the lineup. That's just happening. Babcock wants him there and he's played well enough in the preseason that I don't see anything changing in the coach's mind. And there is the issue of icetime. The top 3 lines are strong enough offensively that you want them out there as much as you can. While you can bulk up the fourth line and shift bodies around....that's going to eat into the ice time of the other lines.
Fourth line C is going to be a guy like Aaltonen, Moore, or maybe Fehr. Not Marleau.
zeke
The Dube Abides
- Mar 14, 2005
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How about this idea?
we stack our top 3 lines with all our offense, and put all our super-checkers on the 4th line.
Leivo - Matthews - Nylander
VanRyk - Kadri - Marner
Marleau - Bozak - Brown
Komarov - Moore - Hyman
Eternal Leaf
Registered User
No one rolls four lines.
This isn't Team Canada where the 4th line is better than any NHL team's first line.
You want the top two lines to receive heavier minutes rather than have them sit on their bums for large chunks.
This isn't Team Canada where the 4th line is better than any NHL team's first line.
You want the top two lines to receive heavier minutes rather than have them sit on their bums for large chunks.
And even with such players at their disposal, not even Team Canada rolls four lines equally. They use the fourth line primarily as a defensive or checking line.
You ideally want all four line to be able to play, yes. You don't throw one of your best wingers into the 4C position to spread out the offense trying to fix a problem that isn't there.
I like this although I'm not sure if Leivo should be on the first line. Perhaps switch him with Marleau. Komarov and Hyman need to pushed to the 4th line.
Bryanbryoil
Pray For Ukraine
- Sep 13, 2004
- 86,171
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Hi guys, what are the odds that Nylander flanks Matthews all season? Trying to figure out some pool picks. Thanks! Seeing as you guys watch 2 of the 3 guys that I must decide between in a box more than anyone, who would you take to score the most points this season, Nylander, Marner or Gaudreau?
Goonface2k14
Registered User
Line changing is gamesmanship, it’s trying to keep your opponent off balance. So, What if the Leafs went completely outside the box, and double shifted Matthews when the situation called for it? It would obviously require Auston to have the ability to do it, but who is to say he can’t? And Babcock can manage it depending on the score, the situation and the matchup. If the 4th line C is playing well, maybe you don’t need to do it as much, but if I can’t see how more #34 on the ice instead of Moore or any other option could hurt. I’m sure there is a way to squeeze in a few more shifts for him and really mess up the opposition. Keep the real 4th line C in the lineup and just maximize Matthews as much as possible throughout the game, for as much as he can handle. Could pay dividends in the long run.
embracedbias
Registered User
Marleau can play center. He has plenty of C experience.
I'm not looking to spread out scoring. I'm looking to ice the best 12 forwards possible. This is how to do that. Martin and Moore on the bench. Leivo and Kapanen in the game.
Conditioning is great and he skates well. Yes. Also 38. Has he been 38 before?
Lots of words. No substance.
