Columbus deal hits a snag [Mod: arena & city]

[bobbop]

kind of shocking eh? Even the NBA does not have this problem.

Actually they do. But without a zealous Canadian press to flush out so much information, it's is handled more discreetly. Half of the NBA teams lost money this year and 3-4 are in dire circumstances. That's why they are looking at a lockout.

 

[Grudy0]

Actually they do. But without a zealous Canadian press to flush out so much information, it's is handled more discreetly. Half of the NBA teams lost money this year and 3-4 are in dire circumstances. That's why they are looking at a lockout.

I'd actually say it is more about a lack of interest than it is about anyone, especially a "zealous Canadian press" trying to flush out so much information.

It goes back to a point I made on an earlier thread: in the States, NFL football is king. We're all made keenly aware of the NFL's possible franchise movements, because it is the mostly-watched sport. It is because hockey is the number one sport in Canada, and the fact that some cities would like NHL teams that the Canadian press is zealous.

The truth is the NBA isn't as beholden as the NFL in the States or the NHL in Canada to warrant the attention. Sure there are some markets that love their basketball. But truth be told, it is few and far between.

 

[Thrive]

This is what happens when you try to force hockey in unconventional markets. People will be quick to say "well Nashville is doing well," but take a look at Florida, Columbus, Phoenix, and Atlanta - it fails. Not to mention the bandwagon sunk in Dallas after their Stanley Cup days, not many people care about hockey in Long Island, and the Avalanche, Devils, and Ducks are having trouble putting people in their seat (as their Stanley Cup's have come & gone). It's ridiculous.


My apologies to the fans of these teams, but moving these franchises may be for the best - put them in conventional hockey markets and see them flourish. This will encourage true competition, rather than this 'internal salary cap' bologna that is only hurting the game. You need to spend money to earn money, and teams with internal caps won't be able to win (bandwagons are what rakes in the dollars) if you have a lower salary team (implying that their skill level will match their payroll). Who wants to go see a 1 young star player that is surrounded by an AHL affiliate talent level team? No one.

 

[KeithBWhittington]

This is what happens when you try to force hockey in unconventional markets. People will be quick to say "well Nashville is doing well," but take a look at Florida, Columbus, Phoenix, and Atlanta - it fails. Not to mention the bandwagon sunk in Dallas after their Stanley Cup days, not many people care about hockey in Long Island, and the Avalanche, Devils, and Ducks are having trouble putting people in their seat (as their Stanley Cup's have come & gone). It's ridiculous.


My apologies to the fans of these teams, but moving these franchises may be for the best - put them in conventional hockey markets and see them flourish. This will encourage true competition, rather than this 'internal salary cap' bologna that is only hurting the game. You need to spend money to earn money, and teams with internal caps won't be able to win (bandwagons are what rakes in the dollars) if you have a lower salary team (implying that their skill level will match their payroll). Who wants to go see a 1 young star player that is surrounded by an AHL affiliate talent level team? No one.

Columbus is a good market. I think you are underestimating it. The only other Pro Sports in town is MLS, Hockey already has a significant foothold, albeit it not all are CBJ fans, a lot of Detroit, Pitt and Buffalo fans. The attendance numbers could be said are still not the 5-6k a night they were pulling in Phoenix or St. Louis a few seasons ago. The problem isn't the lack of a fanbase or market, its the complete inepitude so far of this organization to ice competitive teams and keep interest building.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

This is what happens when you try to force hockey in unconventional markets. People will be quick to say "well Nashville is doing well," but take a look at Florida, Columbus, Phoenix, and Atlanta - it fails. Not to mention the bandwagon sunk in Dallas after their Stanley Cup days, not many people care about hockey in Long Island, and the Avalanche, Devils, and Ducks are having trouble putting people in their seat (as their Stanley Cup's have come & gone). It's ridiculous.


My apologies to the fans of these teams, but moving these franchises may be for the best - put them in conventional hockey markets and see them flourish. This will encourage true competition, rather than this 'internal salary cap' bologna that is only hurting the game. You need to spend money to earn money, and teams with internal caps won't be able to win (bandwagons are what rakes in the dollars) if you have a lower salary team (implying that their skill level will match their payroll). Who wants to go see a 1 young star player that is surrounded by an AHL affiliate talent level team? No one.

You may not have meant it that way, but your post leads me to believe you think Columbus is in the Sunbelt.

I guess it sort of depends on how one defines traditional. If by traditional, you mean a market that is one of the Original 6? Do you mean a city that has had NHL Hockey for 40 years? Perhaps you mean a city where ice naturally occurs? Please help me understand?
What makes Columbus unconventional?

 

[Fugu]

They're about to go into a lockout. It seems reasonable to assume there are more than 2 teams in trouble.

One thing may not have anything to do with the other-- so why say it's reasonable? More below.

Actually they do. But without a zealous Canadian press to flush out so much information, it's is handled more discreetly. Half of the NBA teams lost money this year and 3-4 are in dire circumstances. That's why they are looking at a lockout.

Sorry, but I call BS on the NBA's position.

*Same number of teams as the NHL
*Identical arena issues
*Identical travel/location/logistics issues
*Smaller rosters
*NCAA runs their player development program
*Earn at least $1 billion more in revenues, mainly from better TV contracts, and better merchandising/intl efforts. I once calculated they receive between $30-40 MM from the league per team. That's about 50% of the HRR for many NHL teams!

They've mismanaged their business if they're in trouble. Players received 57% of the league revenues (which seems good enough for the NHL, at least for now ), but the league's proposal is 45-55%. It's the same old greed every time this topic comes up.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Your post is mostly accurate but there are some inaccuracies. There supposedly was a deal between OSU and the legislature around luxury suites and non-OSU/OHSAA functions. This was not contractural but rather a negotiated informal agreement between OSU, the Ohio Legislature and the City of Columbus.

As far as competing for events, that is no more. The Blue Jackets contracted with OSU to manage both facilities. Today they pretty much split events and there is no more competition over attractions. The nice part is that as a Blue Jackets PSL holder, I get the opportunity to buy tickets for any events in BOTH arenas long before they go on sale to the public. OSU isn't really the bad guy, it's sort of more like a certain Winnipeg supporter says, since there is no public contribution of any kind to this arena, and there were no deals for free land, Nationwide Insurance wants a fair return from their investment. The rent amounts to a 4.5% annual ROI, which is fair. Unfortunately, when many teams get subsidies it's difficult for the Blue Jackets. Even the Maple Leafs got essentially free land for the ACC, TNSE got $40 million for the MTS Centre, and then look at many cities where the local government owns the arena.

It was a one-year agreement, and it doesn't exactly undo all the previous years worth of bidding wars and underhanded behavior. Besides that, it assumes that the underhanded behavior hasn't continued....but why are the most popular acts (Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift, and Justin Bieber) all at Value City?

 

[Mayor Bee]

This is what happens when you try to force hockey in unconventional markets. People will be quick to say "well Nashville is doing well," but take a look at Florida, Columbus, Phoenix, and Atlanta - it fails. Not to mention the bandwagon sunk in Dallas after their Stanley Cup days, not many people care about hockey in Long Island, and the Avalanche, Devils, and Ducks are having trouble putting people in their seat (as their Stanley Cup's have come & gone). It's ridiculous.


My apologies to the fans of these teams, but moving these franchises may be for the best - put them in conventional hockey markets and see them flourish. This will encourage true competition, rather than this 'internal salary cap' bologna that is only hurting the game. You need to spend money to earn money, and teams with internal caps won't be able to win (bandwagons are what rakes in the dollars) if you have a lower salary team (implying that their skill level will match their payroll). Who wants to go see a 1 young star player that is surrounded by an AHL affiliate talent level team? No one.

Do us all a favor and locate Columbus on a map.

Sorry, but I call BS on the NBA's position.

*Same number of teams as the NHL
*Identical arena issues
*Identical travel/location/logistics issues
*Smaller rosters
*NCAA runs their player development program
*Earn at least $1 billion more in revenues, mainly from better TV contracts, and better merchandising/intl efforts. I once calculated they receive between $30-40 MM from the league per team. That's about 50% of the HRR for many NHL teams!

They've mismanaged their business if they're in trouble. Players received 57% of the league revenues (which seems good enough for the NHL, at least for now ), but the league's proposal is 45-55%. It's the same old greed every time this topic comes up.

The NBA also has an obscene number of built-in contract exceptions and general end runs around the salary cap. Teams trade first-round picks for guys in the last year of massive contracts since they can either gain additional cap space by letting that expire or by exercising one of the exceptions.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

What makes Columbus unconventional?

Well, it's not really a pro sports city. The Jackets were basically the first major sports franchise to go there, not counting the soccer team.

Mayor Bee points out the machinations of OSU, well, if you put a team in Columbus that's a factor you have to take into account. Columbus is OSU. That's certainly somewhat unconventional. I can't think of another NHL team based in a city so thoroughly defined by college sports. Maybe Carolina to some extent but then that's a unique scenario in other ways.

 

[Melrose Munch]

It was a one-year agreement, and it doesn't exactly undo all the previous years worth of bidding wars and underhanded behavior. Besides that, it assumes that the underhanded behavior hasn't continued....but why are the most popular acts (Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift, and Justin Bieber) all at Value City?

That is life IMO, when you enter a agreement you expect it to be fair. Not necessarily true.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

Well, it's not really a pro sports city. The Jackets were basically the first major sports franchise to go there, not counting the soccer team.

Why aren't we counting the soccer team? You can wear shorts in Columbus year-round, if you don't count October through April...

Also, saying a market is unconventional because it's not a pro sports city seems like lazy circular reasoning. You're justifying an extremely subjective label (unconventional) with another extremely subjective label (not a pro sports city).

Do you have anything concrete (numbers, statistics, anything) to support your assertions that Columbus is an unconventional, non-sports city? Because right now all you have is adjectives.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Why aren't we counting the soccer team? You can wear shorts in Columbus year-round, if you don't count October through April...

Also, saying a market is unconventional because it's not a pro sports city seems like lazy circular reasoning. You're justifying an extremely subjective label (unconventional) with another extremely subjective label (not a pro sports city).

Do you have anything concrete (numbers, statistics, anything) to support your assertions that Columbus is an unconventional, non-sports city? Because right now all you have is adjectives.

I don't count the soccer team because I don't know if MLS is truly a major sports league at this point, it certainly wasn't 15 years ago when the Crew were established.

Unconventional means out of the ordinary, no? "Not conforming to what is generally done or believed".

If so then a major city under the spell of a single college team is pretty unconventional. There are colleges in most NHL markets, but Pittsburgh isn't defined by University of Pittsburgh sports, Phoenix isn't defined by Arizona State sports, San Jose isn't defined by nearby Stanford's athletics. Columbus is defined by OSU sports and OSU football in particular.

You don't think having a major athletic competitor that monopolizes local attention for much of the year affects the location factor of a market? It's a simple reality of Columbus that OSU will be no.1 and that's that. That's pretty damn unconventional. And I honestly don't know what sort of statistics one would expect in this context?

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Why aren't we counting the soccer team? You can wear shorts in Columbus year-round, if you don't count October through April...

Also, saying a market is unconventional because it's not a pro sports city seems like lazy circular reasoning. You're justifying an extremely subjective label (unconventional) with another extremely subjective label (not a pro sports city).

Do you have anything concrete (numbers, statistics, anything) to support your assertions that Columbus is an unconventional, non-sports city? Because right now all you have is adjectives.

One CAN wear shorts year round in Columbus. I'm not saying they will likely be comfortable if they go outside, but hey- I know a guy who wears shorts here when it's well below freezing.

 

[Fugu]

One CAN wear shorts year round in Columbus. I'm not saying they will likely be comfortable if they go outside, but hey- I know a guy who wears shorts here when it's well below freezing.

Sounds like the geeky part of campus. We have those guys here too. Flip-flops too.

 

[Killion]

Sounds like the geeky part of campus. We have those guys here too. Flip-flops too.

They seem to be everywhere. We've got them out here, actually in spades. Guys' wearing shorts & t-shirts in the messiest, coldest, dankest & snowiest days of the year. Even in the mountain towns like Whistler & Revelstoke.

 

[obsenssive*]

Ohio seems out of place as a state. but then, the variety and fluidity of sports popularity by geographic location in the US is simply ridiculous and non-nonsensical.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Ohio seems out of place as a state. but then, the variety and fluidity of sports popularity by geographic location in the US is simply ridiculous and non-nonsensical.

What?

 

[Jumptheshark]

how soon before we hear help us or we're moving to QC/WPG/HAM (not necessarily in that order)

you know it will happen

 

[metalfoot]

Heh. I'll never argue Columbus' relevance based on weather. It's OHIO. Not Mississippi or Louisiana. Plus, last time I was through Columbus, I saw enough Tim Hortons' to make my Canadian heart warmed.

Hope the OSU vs CBJ stuff gets worked out. I think Columbus is a great location for the NHL.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Heh. I'll never argue Columbus' relevance based on weather. It's OHIO. Not Mississippi or Louisiana. Plus, last time I was through Columbus, I saw enough Tim Hortons' to make my Canadian heart warmed.

Hope the OSU vs CBJ stuff gets worked out. I think Columbus is a great location for the NHL.

Columbus is Tim's US HQ (or as Canadians say Head Office). I go for coffee there every day.

For a while Tim Horton's was owned by Wendy's which is a Columbus company.

 

[metalfoot]

I'll be in Columbus again in June. Hoping for some of Tim's finest while I'm there. Best of luck keeping your team. I like the CBJ.

 

[Doug19]

This is what happens when you try to force hockey in unconventional markets. People will be quick to say "well Nashville is doing well," but take a look at Florida, Columbus, Phoenix, and Atlanta - it fails. Not to mention the bandwagon sunk in Dallas after their Stanley Cup days, not many people care about hockey in Long Island, and the Avalanche, Devils, and Ducks are having trouble putting people in their seat (as their Stanley Cup's have come & gone). It's ridiculous.


My apologies to the fans of these teams, but moving these franchises may be for the best - put them in conventional hockey markets and see them flourish. This will encourage true competition, rather than this 'internal salary cap' bologna that is only hurting the game. You need to spend money to earn money, and teams with internal caps won't be able to win (bandwagons are what rakes in the dollars) if you have a lower salary team (implying that their skill level will match their payroll). Who wants to go see a 1 young star player that is surrounded by an AHL affiliate talent level team? No one.

Oh boy, this was a great post. I'll just skip all the crap at the top and focus on the bottom part. Do you actually know how much money Columbus spent on their NHL roster this season? Columbus is by no means a team with a low salary the payroll for the NHL roster alone was around 52 million I believe, and they were paying a player around 3.5 million to play in the minors. The problem isn't the market, the problem is the team. I still don't get how people could possibly think that missing the playoffs some 9 out of the past 10 years wouldn't have an affect on the fans.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

I still don't get how people could possibly think that missing the playoffs some 9 out of the past 10 years wouldn't have an affect on the fans.

That excuse only applies to teams in the league before 1990, excluding Los Angeles. For any other team, it's apparently grounds for relocation or contraction, with the earth salted to ensure a hockey team never ever grows there again.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

The Columbus Dispatch is on the warpath. Here are today's stories

Story #1 Front of sports section

Blue Jackets' value to city goes beyond hockey

http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/live...value-to-city-goes-beyond-hockey.html?sid=101

In the old days, which in the team's 11-year history might be defined as six or seven years ago, the dialogue between Average Joe and Average Bob would go something like this:

Joe: "So how are the Blue Jackets drawing, anyway? Do they ever have good crowds?"

Bob: "Yeah, they always do. They average about 15,000 or 16,000 a game and a lot of the weekend games are sold out."

Joe: "No kidding. I didn't think they would make it five years here. You don't think they can keep that up after the newness wears off, do you?"

Bob: "Actually, I think if they ever have a good team, they will sell out every night."

That hasn't happened, and now that the Blue Jackets are no longer a mysterious entity that somehow seemed to slip into town when the scarlet and gray behemoth on the north side wasn't looking, the dialogue starts in a different place.

It's "Do you think the Blue Jackets will move?" followed by a confident but flimsy "No, but "

You shouldn't have to be a hockey fan to see what the Blue Jackets have done for the city, and it has nothing to do with winning and losing. Regardless of how you feel about some kind of taxpayer-funded bailout or who might profit financially from that - another obvious sore point to some critics - that seems like a given. It bothers me that some people still seem to be wearing their vote against the arena when it was on the ballot as a badge of honor, as if they still have no concept what the franchise has done for the community. They got an arena that was privately financed - good for them - but they apparently don't want to admit they have benefited from it.

This is a city that for years was major league in size and potential and minor league in its image and its psyche. It was the largest city in the nation without a team in one of the major professional leagues, and the economic development people can tell you why that matters: When a company is thinking about relocating to the community, the availability of pro sports is one of the questions that is often asked about.

Story #2- Front Page A1

Blue Jackets lose $25 million, NHL source says

http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/live...-lose-25-million-nhl-source-says.html?sid=101

The deeper losses come at a time when two NHL franchises - in Phoenix and Atlanta - seem on the verge of relocation. It's possible one of those franchises could move to Winnipeg, Manitoba, before next season.

The NHL source said Columbus shouldn't be "part of that conversation with Atlanta and Phoenix yet. But they need a solution, and quick."

Blue Jackets President Mike Priest would not comment on the team's future in Columbus except to say: "(Majority owner) John P. McConnell is committed to winning and building the best franchise, and he's committed to finding a resolution."

• Arena lease: The Blue Jackets have been trying for at least two years to find a solution to a lease they say is out of line with others in pro sports. The Blue Jackets do not get parking revenue, naming rights revenue or some luxury box revenue per their agreement with Nationwide. They claim losses of $12 million per season because of these shortcomings.

Priest has led the search for a lease remedy but said there has been little movement in recent months. The possibility of tax money coming from a proposed casino on the West Side is being stalled by litigation.

Despite the losses, Priest said general manager Scott Howson is under no orders to cut payroll, an NHL club's highest expenditure.

So it's very clear the Columbus Dispatch is using its barrels of ink to try to force the Casino developer to ante up. First they file a story "Nothing is happening on the lease, but people think that Penn National should pay for the arena for the privilege of putting a casino in our city."

Next day, Dispatch bought property next to the Casino site and filed an objection to the Casino development. Penn National retorted with litigation.

Today, the Dispatch warns the team is losing money and while there is no talk of moving, there needs to be a solution- fast. Oh, and this arena and this hockey team are really, really, really important to the city.

And of course, the team says...we are committed to winning, we aren't going to cut payroll.

Politics

What the Dispatch isn't saying. They are not an objective third party. They have a horse in this race. This is a PR campaign to scare the city by threatening to move the team unless government buys Nationwide Arena. Oh and of course they want gambling to fund it, because gambling is a sin.

 

[Melrose Munch]

The Columbus Dispatch is on the warpath. Here are today's stories

Story #1 Front of sports section

Blue Jackets' value to city goes beyond hockey

http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/live...value-to-city-goes-beyond-hockey.html?sid=101





Story #2- Front Page A1

Blue Jackets lose $25 million, NHL source says

http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/live...-lose-25-million-nhl-source-says.html?sid=101






So it's very clear the Columbus Dispatch is using its barrels of ink to try to force the Casino developer to ante up. First they file a story "Nothing is happening on the lease, but people think that Penn National should pay for the arena for the privilege of putting a casino in our city."

Next day, Dispatch bought property next to the Casino site and filed an objection to the Casino development. Penn National retorted with litigation.

Today, the Dispatch warns the team is losing money and while there is no talk of moving, there needs to be a solution- fast. Oh, and this arena and this hockey team are really, really, really important to the city.

And of course, the team says...we are committed to winning, we aren't going to cut payroll.

Politics

What the Dispatch isn't saying. They are not an objective third party. They have a horse in this race. This is a PR campaign to scare the city by threatening to move the team unless government buys Nationwide Arena. Oh and of course they want gambling to fund it, because gambling is a sin.

Good Luck Leek.....Jeez seems like a war.