Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: POWERPLAY GOALS, ZAR, EMPTY NETTERS

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Pittsburgh1776

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Nobody ever hailed ZAR as Bergeron.

ZAR is a very good defensive player on the PK and at 5v5. That's all the stats ever said. And you can watch his line today. Bleuger and Tanev were not performing how they are now with ZAR.

I'm sorry, but there was a stats crowd love fest with ZAR and your post doesn't even come close to describing it. He was absolutely hailed as one of the premier defensive players according to advanced stats. Because that's what they showed. The eye test showed something different. The 'stats are wrong crowd' isn't anywhere on this thread. Most people understand stats, like anything else, are limited in what they can tell you about any player. The stats need to be understood in context along with a variety of other factors.
 

Pittsburgh1776

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Yep. And people just need to be patient with Zucker and Geno. The underlying possession stats are there. As Malkin gets out of his slump, the production will increase.

I can't wait for the day when machines assess players and we just stop scouting altogether. Because the possession stats are there even though Zucker sucks with Malkin and has from day one. Let's just be patient.
 

Gurglesons

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I'm sorry, but there was a stats crowd love fest with ZAR and your post doesn't even come close to describing it. He was absolutely hailed as one of the premier defensive players according to advanced stats. Because that's what they showed. The eye test showed something different. The 'stats are wrong crowd' isn't anywhere on this thread. Most people understand stats, like anything else, are limited in what they can tell you about any player. The stats need to be understood in context along with a variety of other factors.

What did the eye test show differently exactly?

What other factors need to be realized and viewed when it comes to ZAR?

He is a very good forechecker whose defensive prowess comes from how good the line cycles when he is on it.
 

Pittsburgh1776

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I have no interest in turning this into a ZAR thread. The guy has been utterly average and the last two years was often a place where plays went to die and pucks went to get fumbled around the ice. Took advantage of a lot his linemates' defensive work and did nothing especially well. Too much praise and too much usage from the coaching staff for a run of the mill player. You can go back and read the literally thousands of comments on it. He actually played well last game and I'd love to see it continue. He's not a 'very good' anything, yet. I also wouldn't give him the credit of having prowess on anything. That suggests mastery or at least special aptitude. I don't see it.
 

Rakell67

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I’m not a ZAR fan but objectively, the Pens and/or the BART line seems to do well when together. Is it because of Tanev’s tenacious play? Is it Blueger improving as a player? I don’t know. Perhaps it’s kind of like the Islanders’ 4 th line, where the sum is just greater than the parts and they just have that chemistry together.
 
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Pens x

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I’m not a ZAR fan but objectively, the Pens and/or the BART line seems to do well when together. Is it because of Tanev’s tenacious play? Is it Blueger improving as a player? I don’t know. Perhaps it’s kind of like the Islanders’ 4 th line, where the sum is just greater than the parts and they just have that chemistry together.
BART is a solid fourth line...
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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BART is a solid fourth line...

Just read an article with Yohe saying the same thing:

Tanev scored on a Ceci rebound in the first period. Aston-Reese put the game away with an empty-netter in the third. In between, the line was typically effective. The Penguins simply look better when these three are healthy and playing together. In a perfect world, this line is probably better suited for a fourth-line role. It’s a great fourth line. I don’t know if these three will score enough goals to be a great third line. But I do know that the Penguins are a better team when this line is together.

I agree they may not score enough, especially if ZAR reverts back to basically blowing every chance, but we need to face reality here...

The Pens third line has been a disgrace for years now, so if they can control play and score an occasional goal, I’ll take it over whatever abortion they have been throwing out there with McCann.
 

Pens x

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Just read an article with Yohe saying the same thing:



I agree they may not score enough, especially if ZAR reverts back to basically blowing every chance, but we need to face reality here...

The Pens third line has been a disgrace for years now, so if they can control play and score an occasional goal, I’ll take it over whatever abortion they have been throwing out there with McCann.
You are in serious trouble if BART is your third line. Our fourth line from last year is now our third line; that’s terrible.

Hextall and Burke don’t need this season to analyze the bottom six, it is trash besides one or two guys.
 
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JRS91

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The third line is good.

As much flak as Aston-Reese gets, him, Blueger and Tanev make a solid line together. I really think that's ultimately why Hornqvist was moved. Crosby didn't want to play with him, he didn't fit with Malkin and Sullivan ultimately wanted that line to be their third line. As long as they're good defensively and occasionally chip in offensively, I'm fine with it.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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You are in serious trouble if BART is your third line. Our fourth line from last year is now our third line; that’s terrible.

Hextall and Burke don’t need this season to analyze the bottom six, it is trash besides one or two guys.

Serious trouble? Uh, no, you are being dramatic.

Serious trouble is having McCann and some castoffs to form the third line of misfit toys.

Not every third line looks like HBK.

This will likely end up being one of the best third lines in the league at tilting the ice and keeping the other teams best lines bottled up.

They lack the scoring to be a true cup contenders third line, but this isn’t a cup contending team so who cares?

The first and third lines should go a very long way to making this a playoff team, and keeping a high pick from going to Minny.

That is the reality of the situation, unless you think the new mgmt team have some magic wands to wave around.
 

KIRK

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Serious trouble? Uh, no, you are being dramatic.

Serious trouble is having McCann and some castoffs to form the third line of misfit toys.

Not every third line looks like HBK.

This will likely end up being one of the best third lines in the league at tilting the ice and keeping the other teams best lines bottled up.

They lack the scoring to be a true cup contenders third line, but this isn’t a cup contending team so who cares?

The first and third lines should go a very long way to making this a playoff team, and keeping a high pick from going to Minny.

That is the reality of the situation, unless you think the new mgmt team have some magic wands to wave around.

That leaves two big elephants in the room. The 2nd line mix and goaltending. But as I noted yesterday, Hextall has Zucker and one of Dumo/Pets to address that.

If he does it right, they could turn out to be a little further along than I'd appreciated was possible.
 
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ColePens

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I know this is the PGT and don't want to take it off topic, but McCann just has all these amazing tools of an NHLer and just cannot put it together. His awareness and inability to create chemistry with anyone is maddening. If he tried to go a JGP route, he could carve out a LONG career in the NHL. He either doesn't have the hockey IQ or he so badly wants to be a goal scorer. I don't get it. All he would have to do is focus endless hours on trying to be the Bergeron/JGP style player. Hell even Teddy Blueger style.
 

Pens x

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Serious trouble? Uh, no, you are being dramatic.

Serious trouble is having McCann and some castoffs to form the third line of misfit toys.

Not every third line looks like HBK.

This will likely end up being one of the best third lines in the league at tilting the ice and keeping the other teams best lines bottled up.

They lack the scoring to be a true cup contenders third line, but this isn’t a cup contending team so who cares?

The first and third lines should go a very long way to making this a playoff team, and keeping a high pick from going to Minny.

That is the reality of the situation, unless you think the new mgmt team have some magic wands to wave around.
Aka it’s crap and you know it.

Management will hopefully flip someone on D for some top 9 help. Try to ship McCann somewhere. Try something.

Didn’t many of you criticize BART last year when it was only our fourth line? Now the line is suddenly okay even if it’s our third line?

tenor.gif


So now we have a first, second, fourth and fifth line.

Blow it up, Ronny. If your plan is to sit on your hands and see how this ends, end it now.
 

KIRK

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@Mr Jiggyfly kind of touched on it...

Could this team do something in the playoffs? Sure. They find another gear and other teams go out early. However, they shouldn't be considered a true contender. They have too many weaknesses.

L2 and goaltending can be addressed. Hextall has the pieces.

Then you look at mix related questions, but those arent heavy price tag items.

So, in terms of positioning the roster for a run, the pieces are there.

Whether it all crystallizes like 2016 or 2017 is another matter, but it's one even the top contenders have.
 

ColePens

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@Mr Jiggyfly kind of touched on it...

Could this team do something in the playoffs? Sure. They find another gear and other teams go out early. However, they shouldn't be considered a true contender. They have too many weaknesses.

I don't agree in full, but I understand where y'all are coming from. The difference between aging Caps and aging Pens is simply a powerplay that is dynamic. If the Pens found a dynamic powerplay and made 1 or 2 small hockey trades to get that L3 rolling, I think the team is good enough.

But we would need Jarry or DeSmith to start performing. I want to reiterate again because it blows my mind. We chose to stick with two average NHL goalies. So this should have been just about the expectation. They ain't winning us games left and right. They just have to simply not lose them for us and our team has to deliver.
 
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KIRK

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I know this is the PGT and don't want to take it off topic, but McCann just has all these amazing tools of an NHLer and just cannot put it together. His awareness and inability to create chemistry with anyone is maddening. If he tried to go a JGP route, he could carve out a LONG career in the NHL. He either doesn't have the hockey IQ or he so badly wants to be a goal scorer. I don't get it. All he would have to do is focus endless hours on trying to be the Bergeron/JGP style player. Hell even Teddy Blueger style.

McCann is hardly alone in that regard.
 

ColePens

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Aka it’s crap and you know it.

Management will hopefully flip someone on D for some top 9 help.

Didn’t many of you criticize BART last year when it was only our fourth line? Now the line is suddenly okay even if it’s our third line?

tenor.gif


So now we have a first, second, fourth and fifth line.

Blow it up, Ronny. If your plan is to sit on your hands and see how this ends, end it now.

This is such a weird take. And i'll just simply state facts:

1) Players can and do get better all the time.
2) It's a new year.. so let's just watch what they do as of right now. HBK went from the best line we had to the worst line in the NHL in 1 year.
3) Let's wait and see... whether you like it or not. They just were a big part of two wins. Sooooo?
 

Pens x

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This is such a weird take. And i'll just simply state facts:

1) Players can and do get better all the time.
2) It's a new year.. so let's just watch what they do as of right now. HBK went from the best line we had to the worst line in the NHL in 1 year.
3) Let's wait and see... whether you like it or not. They just were a big part of two wins. Sooooo?
I’m tired of giving crappy players a chance. I was told our goalie tandem would be fine. I was told that our free agents we signed would be fine. I was tired of being told this team finished 7th in the regular season last year, so we would be fine.

Sometimes you know when something is a bad idea or won’t work...

BART as your third line is a joke. I wish people could be somewhat objective.
 
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Mr Jiggyfly

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Aka it’s crap and you know it.

Management will hopefully flip someone on D for some top 9 help. Try to ship McCann somewhere. Try something.

Didn’t many of you criticize BART last year when it was only our fourth line? Now the line is suddenly okay even if it’s our third line?

tenor.gif


So now we have a first, second, fourth and fifth line.

Blow it up, Ronny. If your plan is to sit on your hands and see how this ends, end it now.

It’s not even close to crap.

I explained to you what crap is, and we have been seeing it on the third line for the last few seasons.

So you should know BART is a massive upgrade from the abortions we have seen there.

You need to take a look around the league if you think there are all these third lines that are way better than BART.

We should be happy these guys are playing well and coming into their own given what a god awful shitty mess the third line has been since 2017.

Instead you want to bitch like it’s some huge problem that is killing this team... they literally accounted for three goals in the last two... like what else do you want?
 
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BHD

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I don't agree in full, but I understand where y'all are coming from. The difference between aging Caps and aging Pens is simply a powerplay that is dynamic. If the Pens found a dynamic powerplay and made 1 or 2 small hockey trades to get that L3 rolling, I think the team is good enough.

But we would need Jarry or DeSmith to start performing. I want to reiterate again because it blows my mind. We chose to stick with two average NHL goalies. So this should have been just about the expectation. They ain't winning us games left and right. They just have to simply not lose them for us and our team has to deliver.

Yeah, the goaltending is one area where it comes down to the guys being better. The rest of the lineup and PP can be improved either through trades or coaching.

No idea what to make of the defense.
 
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Pens x

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It’s not even close to crap.

I explained to you what crap is, and we have been seeing it on the third line for the last few seasons.

So you should know BART is a massive upgrade from the abortions we have seen there.

You need to take a look around the league if you think there are all these third lines that are way better than BART.

We should be happy these guys are playing well and coming into their own given what a god awful shitty mess the third line has been since 2017.

Instead you want to bitch like it’s some huge problem that is killing this team... they literally accounted for three goals in the last two... like what else do you want?
Jank scored in his two games; you know BART won’t keep this up. ZAR will fade back to his normal fourth line abilities.
 

KIRK

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I’m tired of giving crappy players a chance. I was told our goalie tandem would be fine. I was told that our free agents we signed would be fine. I was tired of being told this team finished 7th in the regular season last year, so we would be fine.

Sometimes you know when something is a bad idea or won’t work...

I'm a cynic by nature. I thought Rutherford left this team in a total state of disrepair. But for all of his screw ups in the last 24 months, I see from the last two games how Hextall can fix it for this season.

As I keep saying, the 2nd line mix and goaltending are your two red flags.

Hextall has Zucker and one of the injured LD he could move. Those pieces are enough. He doesn't need non existent futures.

The other things like bottom 6 mix . . . I'm not worried. He has the secondary and tertiary pieces to tweak.

That said, Hextall has to be right like Rutherford got the 2015-2016 in season moves right.

But at least I can visualize what the GM can do to position this club to be more than one and done, which is a lot more than I could've said a month ago.
 
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