Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Vegas....what was that?!

[Bingo71]

Back to back against a rested and motivated elite team at home and OMG the Pens are a joke they need to rebuild Sully sucks, something something Ryan Reaves. It’s painful to read.

It’s more painful to watch.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Just for entertainment



And PensBurgh’s appropriate response...

I disagree with PensBurgh's post, at least half of it. Pettersson has shown enough that I'd say he's capable of being a solid defender for us. Johnson, IMO, is going to be the issue going forward.

I think the only area Johnson can be an asset is on the PK, where he doesn't have to do as much with the puck on his stick and just worry about blocking shots and using his strength to move people out of the crease.

 

[3074326]

It’s more painful to watch.

Yeah they're going to play a couple bad games here and there. Like every team, ever. They just won what.. 12 out of 15?

Do you actually enjoy watching hockey? I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just not sure I remember a postitive comment from you. Things aren't so bad in the world of hockey in Pittsburgh..

 

[cassius]

DeSmith is lousy

He should start maybe 5-6 games the rest of the year. Let Murray do his thing and get this mediocre AHL scrub out of the way

 

[Bingo71]

I just tire of the excuses and the idea that nobody is allowed to criticize the team or players, lest they be called “fair weather fans” or Chicken Littles...

There’s always an excuse when they lose. It’s never that half the team has their heads up their asses and zero effort, there’s always some other reason for why they didn’t win.

Refs screwed us

West/East/North/South road trips are brutal

Missing players X, Y, and Z

We always play bad against team X

Other team was well rested

Pens were tired

Pens were rusty after a long time off

The other team brought their A game against the Pens

I mean, it can literally never be that the team just isn’t as good as some thought it was and that the dumb mistakes and poor effort isn’t a blip on the radar but rather the norm.

I feel like the old “can’t expect to win them all” line is overused and frankly, lazy. No, you can’t expect to win them all, but you should expect a professional sports team to compete on any given night, not constantly be taking dumb penalties, gettin outworked and out hustled, giving up a dozen odd man rushes, looking like the Keystone Kops in the defensive end, etc.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Pensburg is conveniently ignoring that the Pettersson-Johnson pair had really strong underlying numbers, so to say that there is "nothing good" about that pair is just laughably false. They were a strong bottom pair on an unsustainable run, but it being on an "unsustainable" run doesn't mean it's a bad pair.

That pair had an unsustainably good run for the first 20 games or so that it was together, and they have had an unsusainably bad run in the last 5 games. I'm just hoping that their unsustainably bad run ends ASAP. Even with their bad run, their stats as a pair are still pretty good. It's just that your goals against stats are going to look terrible when you have an on ice save% of .765 and a PDO of .81.

 

[Andy99]

Pensburg is conveniently ignoring that the Pettersson-Johnson pair had really strong underlying numbers, so to say that there is "nothing good" about that pair is just laughably false. They were a strong bottom pair on an unsustainable run, but it being on an "unsustainable" run doesn't mean it's a bad pair.

I agree with this...the diminishing of the pair’s unsustainable run however coincided with the goaltending falling back to earth, but that doesn’t mean there’s cause and effect there...I would split that pair as soon as Schultz is back, which is hopefully against NJD

 

[Ugene Magic]

I agree but why aren’t we trapping then (see NYI)? I think the issue is that our top skill players don’t want to play that way...it’s boring...it’s hard to fault them for that but I think we’ll have to try the Caps system more as we get closer to April...also, don’t forget the Caps actually have more younger players with speed than we do like Vrana...

The Caps get through a depleted limited depth Penguins team and all a sudden the Caps are the new product?

The Pens won out because they had depth at every position. The Caps won because the Pens decided to not keep the gang together another year (were forced into it in some cases like Fleury), they severely lacked depth on defense losing Daley, Hainsey and Cole to have one of the worst defenses in the playoffs.

Dumoulin, Letang
Maatta, Schultz
Oleksiak, Ruhwedel

The top pairs had to overstretch their means to cover, or try to make up for that bottom pairing. They had no breaks. Against good teams that's just not gonna do.

My first point here is, when the Pens are at their best (full of depth) there isn't a team that can match them. Even the caps. 2016 proved that, and 2017 cemented it.

The Caps were afforded their run when the Pens decided to walk away from guys due to cap/UFA/expansion draft. That's a reality you can't escape.

My overall point here is, that doesn't mean speed and 3 offensive deep lines is dead due to these factors. All the Pens need to do is find the right fit/combination to make it all work. Brassard is not a fit, he can't do 5 on 5 and be trusted to produce regularly. That's what they are missing. 5 on 5 they are getting killed. The transition from offense to defense, and then back to offense is terrible. They are not creating enough back check turnovers and getting offense from it. When have you seen this even once with Brassard? I'm not talking about domination in the other teams zone here, I'm talking about steal the puck from the other team transitioning in the neutral zone. It happens to the Pens far more often. Brassard hasn't been relied on this faucet of the game heavily, and he doesn't have the skill/determination Sid, or at times Malkin do this. It's not giving up on plays, positioning and knowing your role. The Pens were tops at turning it around and catching teams in transition/line changes.

Losing a guy like Hagelin severely hurts this one detail. That is very much underrated here about Hagelin. I'd take him ten fold over a guy like Simon.

I mean, the Pens are missing guys who do everything possible to limit the other teams chances and produced going the other way. These were guys in prominent roles you probably can't replace.

The defense is almost there with Schultz coming back.

Since Hagelin played mostly with Malkin earlier, a miss cast, it would have been much better had they just put Hagelin, Brassard and Kessel together and left it for a while. Like a month. If Brassard can't make that work 5 on 5 there probably was no real hope he'd ever work in a 50/50 role of offense/defense. Brassard played with Hagelin before in the past.

With each trade they lose themselves even further. Guys they just won't replace. In the end, it's costing more than just re-signing the key guys in the first place.

Maybe Brassard is better off kepted and trade out some form of Sheahan, Oleksiak, 1st, and Simon for a guy who will be a bottom six difference maker.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I agree with this...the diminishing of the pair’s unsustainable run however coincided with the goaltending falling back to earth, but that doesn’t mean there’s cause and effect there...I would split that pair as soon as Schultz is back, which is hopefully against NJD

The pair has like an on ice save% of 76.5% over the last 5 games, that's why their goals against totals are so high. The pair hasn't been that good over the last 5 games (although they are a net positive in most advanced stat categories, they've just struggled defensively), but the struggles of the pair are almost completely due to the crap goaltending they've gotten on the ice.

It just bothers me that Pensburg is saying "the pair was only good because of an unsustainable save%" while ignoring that the pair has only been bad recently because of an unsustainable save%. I know exactly why they're not mentioning it, it's because it's Jack Johnson, but at least pretend to be consistent.

 

[3074326]

I just tire of the excuses and the idea that nobody is allowed to criticize the team or players, lest they be called “fair weather fans” or Chicken Littles...

There’s always an excuse when they lose. It’s never that half the team has their heads up their asses and zero effort, there’s always some other reason for why they didn’t win.

Refs screwed us

West/East/North/South road trips are brutal

Missing players X, Y, and Z

We always play bad against team X

Other team was well rested

Pens were tired

Pens were rusty after a long time off

The other team brought their A game against the Pens

I mean, it can literally never be that the team just isn’t as good as some thought it was and that the dumb mistakes and poor effort isn’t a blip on the radar but rather the norm.

I feel like the old “can’t expect to win them all” line is overused and frankly, lazy. No, you can’t expect to win them all, but you should expect a professional sports team to compete on any given night, not constantly be taking dumb penalties, gettin outworked and out hustled, giving up a dozen odd man rushes, looking like the Keystone Kops in the defensive end, etc.

Did someone say you couldn't criticize them or are you just making that up? Did someone call anyone else a fair weather fan, or chicken little? You used quotes.

You made an entire post based on things nobody said or even implied.

Your last paragraph is not even based on reality. You're describing no team that has ever existed in hockey. Your expectations are unreasonable. The Pens have won the vast majority of the games they've played in the last 6 weeks. And "can't win them all" is not lazy. It's true. And if you expect otherwise (which apparently you do????), you'll be miserable. Which you seem to be.

EDIT: Just to be clear - I know this team has issues. I wasn't happy with last night either. But it will be ok.. the sky is actually not falling, the Pens just lost a game. The hyperbole about this team being bad and not a contender is, well, stupid.

 

[Icarium]

I feel like the old “can’t expect to win them all” line is overused and frankly, lazy. No, you can’t expect to win them all, but you should expect a professional sports team to compete on any given night, not constantly be taking dumb penalties, gettin outworked and out hustled, giving up a dozen odd man rushes, looking like the Keystone Kops in the defensive end, etc.

Not going to happen with 82 games per season and a salary cap. Every team is wildly inconsistent except possibly Tampa.

I just tire of the excuses and the idea that nobody is allowed to criticize the team or players, lest they be called “fair weather fans” or Chicken Littles...

Being disappointed after a game is fine. It's only showing up to complain when the team is losing bad and/or jumping to conclusions that a bad game means the team is terrible in general that is, frankly, annoying. At some point one stops taking these arguments seriously.

 

[Bingo71]

Did someone say you couldn't criticize them or are you just making that up? Did someone call anyone else a fair weather fan, or chicken little? You used quotes.

You made an entire post based on things nobody said or even implied.

Your last paragraph is not even based on reality. You're describing no team that has ever existed in hockey. Your expectations are unreasonable. The Pens have won the vast majority of the games they've played in the last 6 weeks. And "can't win them all" is not lazy. It's true. And if you expect otherwise (which apparently you do????), you'll be miserable. Which you seem to be.

EDIT: Just to be clear - I know this team has issues. I wasn't happy with last night either. But it will be ok.. the sky is actually not falling, the Pens just lost a game. The hyperbole about this team being bad and not a contender is, well, stupid.

Are we playing the semantics game now?

Yes, I have seen the term “fair weather fan” thrown around. Yes, I’ve seen posters who criticize the team or a certain player get mocked for it and told that they are crazy.

What I am seeing right now is a team that is getting outworked more often than not by contenders and non contenders alike. I do not see a championship caliber team right now as currently constructed. That’s ok, there’s still time to fix it, but something has to change fairly soon or they will be fighting a clawing just to make it to the playoffs.

Yes, individual players are really looking bad right now but he reality is that the whole team effort and execution is severely lacking on many nights. It needs fixed.

 

[Bingo71]

Not going to happen with 82 games per season and a salary cap. Every team is wildly inconsistent except possibly Tampa.



Being disappointed after a game is fine. It's only showing up to complain when the team is losing bad and/or jumping to conclusions that a bad game means the team is terrible in general that is, frankly, annoying. At some point one stops taking these arguments seriously.

It’s human nature for people to complain and vent more than they express happy thoughts.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yes, individual players are really looking bad right now but he reality is that the whole team effort and execution is severely lacking on many nights. It needs fixed.

That's needed fixed for over a decade now. It's not going to be fixed.

 

[Ugene Magic]

That's needed fixed for over a decade now. It's not going to be fixed.

Right, some form of the roster isn't going at certain points of the season. But there was times where it wasn't as prominent. They alluded to that to an extent this year from the two cup years, and are trying to resolve it in trial and error.

 

[Doogle]

I don't know if you guys realize this, but sometimes your favorite hockey team will lose games, especially to other teams that happen to be very good.

We have some problems. Namely our depth scoring, defense, and Malkin. But there are people claiming that we need to blow things up and rebuild because we lost the second of a back to back to the defending western conference champion. Chill the f out.

 

[Icarium]

What I am seeing right now is a team that is getting outworked more often than not by contenders and non contenders alike. I do not see a championship caliber team right now as currently constructed.

Go to any contender's forum and you will see the exact same complaints. In some cases they are even true. In many other it's fans being overly dramatic.

 

[ColePens]

It’s human nature for people to complain and vent more than they express happy thoughts.

That may be a you problem and not so much a general human nature thing. Yes... negativity is prominent in today's society. You could have 100 things and complain about the 1 thing you don't. But for the VERY vocal minority who make it sound doom and gloom when the Pens lose a game, that is a you problem. Don't try blaming that on human nature.

The rest of us have no problem of celebrating what has happened, analyzing the game within a realistic bubble, and chatting hockey.

 

[LOGiK]

34 games remain.
Need about 38-40 pts to get in the post season.

Slice the points anyway you like. Should be in good shape.

 

[Shady Machine]

I disagree with PensBurgh's post, at least half of it. Pettersson has shown enough that I'd say he's capable of being a solid defender for us. Johnson, IMO, is going to be the issue going forward.

I think the only area Johnson can be an asset is on the PK, where he doesn't have to do as much with the puck on his stick and just worry about blocking shots and using his strength to move people out of the crease.

You're not disagreeing with the post, you are just reading more into it then I think is there. That post didn't say Petterson wasn't good, it just said there is nothing special about the pairing, counter to what was being claimed before (in other words, Johnson still sucks).

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

DeSmith is lousy

He should start maybe 5-6 games the rest of the year. Let Murray do his thing and get this mediocre AHL scrub out of the way

Ol' lousy mediocre AHL scrub Casey DeSmith, whose GAA is 15th and SV% is 9th in the NHL over the last 2 seasons:

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

It's almost as if he's not lousy at all.

 

[Shady Machine]

DeSmith is lousy

He should start maybe 5-6 games the rest of the year. Let Murray do his thing and get this mediocre AHL scrub out of the way

I don't think he's lousy, but his play on the whole gives me pause about keeping him around as back up for 3 years with no depth in the pipeline. I'd still like to keep Jarry around and make it a competition, but waivers make than an issue starting next year.

I think some are fooled by the flash of his saves, not totally dissimilar to Fleury in his younger days. Sometimes you look like you are making sick saves because you are out of position a lot.

 

[Ugene Magic]

That may be a you problem and not so much a general human nature thing. Yes... negativity is prominent in today's society. You could have 100 things and complain about the 1 thing you don't. But for the VERY vocal minority who make it sound doom and gloom when the Pens lose a game, that is a you problem. Don't try blaming that on human nature.

The rest of us have no problem of celebrating what has happened, analyzing the game within a realistic bubble, and chatting hockey.

I hear a certain song in my head that comes to mind, Cole.

Damnit!!!

 

[vodeni]

I don't know if it's because of the 2016 Pens, but the speed level of the top teams has certainly increased over the past few years. Meanwhile, the Penguins have gotten slower, especially on defense.

I also find myself questioning our "system" at this point. I'm not enough of an Xs and Os guy to fully grasp this (maybe someone can tell me if this is BS) but:

• In the offensive zone, our dependence on cycling and generating offense from below the goal-line often leaves all 3 forwards trapped back when our opponents get the puck back from us. Also, we sell out for point shots which is leading to bad pinches and all of these ridiculous odd-man rushes headed back the other way.
• In the defensive zone, I certainly feel like we go into a "shell" a lot. 5-on-5, we tend to look like a PK but basically with an extra player. To my eye, this is pretty good for goal prevention but once we get the puck we are really struggling in transitioning from defense to offense and getting threatening breakouts the other way, mostly because our players are so bunched-up in the zone.

I had noticed us playing this way as far back as the 2017 playoffs, where we won but it took a heroic effort from the MAF/Murray duo. I fear that win, as great as it was, reinforced some bad habits in the coaching staff which have carried through to this day.

I wish we looked like that. ON PK we attack, we hustle, we are scary, 5 on 5 not so much

 

[LOGiK]

I hear a certain song in my head that comes to mind, Cole.

Damnit!!!

Is it the blood hound gang? Thats what I got.