Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Flyers in a deja vu of frustration

[Jaded-Fan]

Philly putting themselves almost at the top of the sadness chart with the win while we still got a point makes me happy. That sounds like a win to me.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Sure. But, Phil is also a player that has been coasting on natural talent and strength and his skill.

Do you think he is going to age gracefully?

That's not a bad list of things to coast on if I'm taking that statement at face value. Better than being someone that grinds it out with less natural talent who has neither ability when they move through their 30s. Who knows what the future holds, but if I have to choose I'll take Phil at 34 as opposed to say, Backes or Ladd.

 

[MartinS82]

You can put 100% blame on 87 for both goals. He was lazy in the neutral. That is all on him.

Usually there are at least two break downs that lead to goals. But not always. Especially on the OT goal.

 

[molon labe]

I largely agree with your post in it's entirety. Hart was pretty damn good last night. Sure we had a few chest snipes (I groaned when Dumo was setup with the puck on a platter and one timed it right into Hart's chest). But, there were numerous grade a chances that He stopped. Sometimes when you are hitting the post it's because, in the words of Patrick Roy, he's giving you the post

Seriously though, some of those saves Hart had were what we loved about Murray when he first broke in, make difficult saves look routine because of your positioning and reading of the play. We'll see but the Flyers sure look like they have finally solved their goal tending problem..

Great point, he did show resemblance of that 2016 Murray. The hot goalie excuse is one that our team should not be allowed to use....I mean, especially in games with multiple power play opportunities. I don't mean to say Hart didn't have a great game - but with the team in front of him (and a gimpy Giroux), his great game should have meant he held us to two or three goals. I really think it came down moreso to our lack of quality production than him doing anything extraordinary.

 

[ChaosAgent]

That's not a bad list of things to coast on if I'm taking that statement at face value. Better than being someone that grinds it out with less natural talent who has neither ability when they move through their 30s. Who knows what the future holds, but if I have to choose I'll take Phil at 34 as opposed to say, Backes.

I'll take a 24 year old over either.

 

[Pancakes]

I said he was terrible on the powerplay.

Do you want to defend him there? Look at the game against Philly. Look at the amount of short hand goals against Phil has been directly responsible for.

#8 in the entire NHL in power play points. First on the Pens. You said he's been terrible there for a calendar year, but that's demonstrably untrue.

I'm not gonna sit here and say Kessel doesn't frustrate the hell out of me sometimes but he has produced.

 

[Gurglesons]

#8 in the entire NHL in power play points. First on the Pens. You said he's been terrible there for a calendar year, but that's demonstrably untrue.

I'm not gonna sit here and say Kessel doesn't frustrate the hell out of me sometimes but he has produced.

James Neal produced also.

Production is one facet of the game.

 

[ChaosAgent]

James Neal produced also.

Production is one facet of the game.

He has been killing a line centered by Evgeni freaking Malkin. To where, gun to most of our heads, we would prefer Teddy or even Simon alongside #71 and Rust in the playoffs.

 

[molon labe]

#8 in the entire NHL in power play points. First on the Pens. You said he's been terrible there for a calendar year, but that's demonstrably untrue.

I'm not gonna sit here and say Kessel doesn't frustrate the hell out of me sometimes but he has produced.

Been a looooong time since the Power Play goal against Columbus in 2017 when Phil deked two guys en route to sniping Bob. I don't think Phil has been the sole creator of power play offense for two seasons now (or at least a full calendar year).

Phil comes in two forms in the modern Pens power play. Form A) He receives a fantastic feed from someone and taps her home like Gilmore, Happy. Form B) He fumbles the puck/forces a bad pass causing a turnover like Lafferty Daniels.

Nobody can deny that he has gained points on the power play. Some people are denying HOW he's getting those points and how easily they could be replaced by the likes of Guentzel or Rust or McCann. That alone does not constitute moving the guy (I mean, two is better than one) - but he needs to start producing at even strength and he'll need to adjust some things to do so.

 

[Gurglesons]

Been a looooong time since the Power Play goal against Columbus in 2017 when Phil deked two guys en route to sniping Bob. I don't think Phil has been the sole creator of power play offense for two seasons now (or at least a full calendar year).

Phil comes in two forms in the modern Pens power play. Form A) He receives a fantastic feed from someone and taps her home like Gilmore, Happy. Form B) He fumbles the puck/forces a bad pass causing a turnover like Lafferty Daniels.

Nobody can deny that he has gained points on the power play. Some people are denying HOW he's getting those points and how easily they could be replaced by the likes of Guentzel or Rust or McCann. That alone does not constitute moving the guy (I mean, two is better than one) - but he needs to start producing at even strength and he'll need to adjust some things to do so.

I honestly would have put Bjugstad in Phil’s spot a month ago.

 

[MartinS82]

That was Sid going for his cookie on the tying goal. Bad time of year for that.

On a side note, this is why "takeaways" is a bad way to measure defensive play. The correct play on both of those goals is to contain, and herd the puck carrier towards the boards or your support, not go for a steal.

 

[Pancakes]

James Neal produced also.

Production is one facet of the game.

A pretty damned important facet of the game that people are apparently willing to overlook in their haste to get rid of Phil.

He has been killing a line centered by Evgeni freaking Malkin. To where, gun to most of our heads, we would prefer Teddy or even Simon alongside #71 and Rust in the playoffs.

Based on what? Not production, because both of them are still PPG players.

 

[molon labe]

I honestly would have put Bjugstad in Phil’s spot a month ago.

How is his one-timer? Having that long reach on the power play would be amazing (especially for keeping the play alive when Sid or Geno dump it behind the net).

- Guentzel is a no-brainer and would not only replace Phil, he would present a legitimate threat.
- Rust is great a tap-ins and would play a similar role to what Phil has brought as of late (but with much, much more defensive responsibility)
- McCann has a HELL of a shot and would also increase the lethality of the power play (Geno on one side, McCann on the other....send shivers to the opposition).

 

[Pancakes]

Been a looooong time since the Power Play goal against Columbus in 2017 when Phil deked two guys en route to sniping Bob. I don't think Phil has been the sole creator of power play offense for two seasons now (or at least a full calendar year).

Phil comes in two forms in the modern Pens power play. Form A) He receives a fantastic feed from someone and taps her home like Gilmore, Happy. Form B) He fumbles the puck/forces a bad pass causing a turnover like Lafferty Daniels.

Nobody can deny that he has gained points on the power play. Some people are denying HOW he's getting those points and how easily they could be replaced by the likes of Guentzel or Rust or McCann. That alone does not constitute moving the guy (I mean, two is better than one) - but he needs to start producing at even strength and he'll need to adjust some things to do so.

I don't care if Phil is putting in powerplay points off his ass crack. He's putting them up at an incredible rate that has him top 10 in the NHL in that regard.

Maybe Guentzel can replace that production. But we're trading a known for an unknown if move Phil and rely on Guentzel to fill his shoes.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Based on what? Not production, because both of them are still PPG players.

You know, the other team produces while they are on the ice too. Just a thought.

 

[Pancakes]

You know, the other team produces while they are on the ice too. Just a thought.

And we're going to pin all of that on Phil? Geno is blameless? How about the much maligned defensive player they frequently play in front of (JJ) ?

 

[Ms Maggie]

Meh. Next.

 

[molon labe]

I don't care if Phil is putting in powerplay points off his ass crack. He's putting them up at an incredible rate that has him top 10 in the NHL in that regard.

Maybe Guentzel can replace that production. But we're trading a known for an unknown if move Phil and rely on Guentzel to fill his shoes.

Guentzel isn't unknown.

You SHOULD care how Phil gets the points. You should care because HE'S not directly responsible for them; he's the benefactor of plays being made from everyone else. The opposition doesn't even respect him anymore and crash him (often double team) because they know his stick skills at idle are terrible. You don't see them doing that with Geno or Sid though, right? His power play production is merely cherry picking the work of everyone else - so if you replace that with a guy making 1/5th of his money you open up the options on your team going forward. That's worth griping about.

You are trying to argue the man is worth his salt based on things he has no factor in other than 'being there'. Kunitz 2.0. Meanwhile he fumbles the puck, causes horrible passes, and is directly responsible for many short handed opportunities against. He absolutely deserves criticism of his power play antics despite having points and being top 10 in production.

 

[MartinS82]

Dudes got greedy over empty net opportunities...

Yeah, it's unacceptable to get beat on transition in an empty net situation. Sid going for the takeaway there is definitely the catalyst, but I don't think Rust needs to be defending outside the dots at center. (I realize he was watching the winger stationed at the blue line, but he was in no man's land for that even. If he is laying back another 10-15 feet he picks up JVR walking down the slot.)

Not trying to take blame from Sid, he deserves it there. But there were other factors that led to that goal as well.

 

[Pancakes]

Guentzel isn't unknown.

You SHOULD care how Phil gets the points. You should care because HE'S not directly responsible for them; he's the benefactor of plays being made from everyone else. The opposition doesn't even respect him anymore and crash him (often double team) because they know his stick skills at idle are terrible. You don't see them doing that with Geno or Sid though, right? His power play production is merely cherry picking the work of everyone else - so if you replace that with a guy making 1/5th of his money you open up the options on your team going forward. That's worth griping about.

You are trying to argue the man is worth his salt based on things he has no factor in other than 'being there'. Kunitz 2.0. Meanwhile he fumbles the puck, causes horrible passes, and is directly responsible for many short handed opportunities against. He absolutely deserves criticism of his power play antics despite having points and being top 10 in production.

Like I said, production is production. They don't give you points for how pretty it is. But even that aside, I think you're way off in your assumptions about how Phil gets his points. He's the PP qb dude. He quarterbacks all of it from the half wall. He's not just getting cheap touches and grabbing points that way. He's very involved in most of the PP goals we score.

If he deserves criticism for his PP work it's not his production but his occasional carelessness with the puck which has led to SHGs against. But the entire PP is guilty of that, not just Phil.

 

[Andy99]

With G out...I think we should do the following...

Jake-Sid-Rust
Blueger-McCann-Phil (gives two centers on that line, interchangeable)
Stay with current L3
Try someone else from WBS than Mr. Bland- Cullen-Wilson

 

[Icarium]

#8 in the entire NHL in power play points. First on the Pens. You said he's been terrible there for a calendar year, but that's demonstrably untrue.

I wonder if there are stats for PP turnovers, Phil's gotta be in top 5 at least. I just don't understand why the PP has to be so risky with this kind of talent on it. You watch other teams and when they don't score at least they usually don't allow at least one great chance per PP for the opposition. Phil is far from the only culprit but he is also a liability 5 on 5. Malkin's plus/minus is bad but his eye test is a lot better 5 on 5, IMO. Teams are no longer scared of Kessel coming down the wing with speed, hell, when was the last time he had a breakaway, let alone score on one?

Phil comes in two forms in the modern Pens power play. Form A) He receives a fantastic feed from someone and taps her home like Gilmore, Happy. Form B) He fumbles the puck/forces a bad pass causing a turnover like Lafferty Daniels.

He had a beautiful assist to Crosby just last week. Tapping pucks in has never been Phil's forte either. But still, the PP is doing well statistically, he must be doing something right. When him and Geno were removed from PP1 for a bit twice this season, they reacted well, then got back to forcing plays all the time a few games later. I wish it were just Phil but it's a systemic issue on PP1, really.