Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Flyers in a deja vu of frustration

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molon labe

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Okay. Phil, though... I've never seen him look so bad before. He's gone through rough stretches before, but this another level.


BUT, BUT.... HE'S A POINT PER GAME PLAYER!!!!!

Yeah man, there are plenty of folks who are over it. Guentzel is the clear cut choice for PP1 but is the more complete hockey player and A) Will get his points elesewhere, and B) Won't sulk for not getting top unit time.

The classic Phil wrister is a thing of the past. The best we'll see is the hard skate, stop/turn, look for Geno pass. I don't think he's had one single breakaway wrister this entire season (though i've seen one or two forced shots with defenders smothering him). He's a guy who, when not doing the one hockey thing he's good at - is noticeably bad. For whatever reason - Sheary could be the product of Sid and get criticized for his lack of production away from Sid, and his one-dimensional play-style, but a player who is exponentially more expensive, who has the exact same issue (away from Geno/away from PP1) gets a pass from the entire fanbase because he likes hot dogs. As we all know - he's not our biggest issue though...and lord knows what GMJR would do with the cap space if he was dealt.
 
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Icarium

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He didn't suck. He deserves blame, absolutely - but compared to the actual efforts by the three I mentioned, he's not in the same stratosphere.

We allowed only two goals, neither of which was the fault of any defenceman, you yourself say Murray was lucky, and yet you blame two defencemen the most? And Phil was bad but he did have the primary assist for the goal which was going to be the GWG if not for Sid's brainfart.

The shots on net were not particularly special, despite NBC doing everything they could to pump Hart.

Not true at all, Schultz alone had like three glorious chances.
 

vikingGoalie

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My take away is that one hand sure, we played a decent game, not a great game.
The biggest thing is though, it's the Flyers, we have a lot more talent on our team then they do. We are in playoff mode (supposedly) and we can't lock it down for the final 18 seconds? I really thought this team was starting to have a 2016 vibe to it until St. Louis and now this. In 2016 we would have not even allowed the Flyers a shot the last 10 minutes of the game. We needed to score on the PP and we needed to posses the puck and suffocate the Flyers.
Sure we got 42 shots, but we gave up 38. Not very 2016 like there. Also Murray was very very good in this game. It is a bit disappointing that Hart stoned us in OT, we hit the post and then Murray gets beat under his blocker above the pad right after we got stopped multiple times on grade A chances.

Not blaming the game on him he made enough big saves and we have the horses that we should be putting up more then 1 goal. I don't care how hot the goalie is, we clowned a bunch of hot/good/vezina candidate goalies when we won the cup with the HBK line. I *thought* we were on the verge of that kind of dominance again and then we do this...

So I'm not in the boat of some here that are saying not too worry we played great, just ran into hot goalies. I'm not in panic mode, but this is definitely concerning. We needed that point with geno out. CBJ just needed a little time for the new faces to gel into the lineup, I expect them and the 'canes to be coming on hard the rest of the way.
 

Andy99

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Looking at the replays again from the Blues game, I don’t think it was the cross-check that actually injured Geno...it looks like the cross-check was unexpected and G fell to the ice without using his hands to support. I’d suspect the rib injury was not to the back, side area but to the front where he fell...that’s why I’m guessing sternum and wonder about cartilage separation there perhaps
 

molon labe

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We allowed only two goals, neither of which was the fault of any defenceman, you yourself say Murray was lucky, and yet you blame two defencemen the most? And Phil was bad but he did have the primary assist for the goal which was going to be the GWG if not for Sid's brainfart.



Not true at all, Schultz alone had like three glorious chances.

So you're saying Hart was spectacular last night? I don't think so. We had zone time but not many quality shots on net (and definitely not many he was directly responsible for saving).

We're people of different philosophies if you think that because Phil put the shot on net it excuses him for everything else. I'm no stat watcher, but that's just not the way I do takeaways from games. Ironically, Sid can have a great, strong, hard working game - but you blame him for two shifts, therefore his game is bad. Phil can have an assist yet blow chunks the other 95% of his ice time and have a good game?

My statement was about our worst players. Not who had the most blame for the loss. Frankly, with rare exception losses are blamed on entire teams or netminding. It'll be a rare occurance for me to ever blame a guy whole-heartedly for a loss. The three guys I mentioned, without a doubt (in my opinion of course) had the worst games of anyone - on a night where pretty much no player played great. That's worth noting.

Murray keeping it close had a LOT to do with their chances not being quality chances. Sure, he had a few really, really strong saves...but even the Flyers coach said during both intermissions that they were not getting enough offensive opportunity. To say Murray saved the day is asinine. He did good at times, but was also extremely fortunate that the few chances the Flyers got were whiffed or hit the bar. Would I have blamed him if they went in? No. We're not a team built to win 1-0 games and haven't been for a LONG time. We won't win many games (if any) playing like that. So long as Muzz can keep the opposition to two goals or less, I expect our offensive players to do the rest. So, if you're looking for me to blame someone - I'll blame the offense. If you want to know what my original post was about - well, exactly what I said: Our three worst players last night were Phil, Petts, and JMFJ.
 
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BHD

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BUT, BUT.... HE'S A POINT PER GAME PLAYER!!!!!

Yeah man, there are plenty of folks who are over it. Guentzel is the clear cut choice for PP1 but is the more complete hockey player and A) Will get his points elesewhere, and B) Won't sulk for not getting top unit time.

The classic Phil wrister is a thing of the past. The best we'll see is the hard skate, stop/turn, look for Geno pass. I don't think he's had one single breakaway wrister this entire season (though i've seen one or two forced shots with defenders smothering him). He's a guy who, when not doing the one hockey thing he's good at - is noticeably bad. For whatever reason - Sheary could be the product of Sid and get criticized for his lack of production away from Sid, and his one-dimensional play-style, but a player who is exponentially more expensive, who has the exact same issue (away from Geno/away from PP1) gets a pass from the entire fanbase because he likes hot dogs. As we all know - he's not our biggest issue though...and lord knows what GMJR would do with the cap space if he was dealt.

Wow. You realize he's 30+ goal seasons while playing next to Tyler Bozak, right? That's the main reason people haven't completely written him off. You put him a competent passer and he's good. The biggest problem with Phil right now is how he's approaching the game. He - and by extension his line - will only take off once he gets his shit together.
 

Jaded-Fan

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Actually I ain't even upset.

Pens outplayed the Flyers most of the night, were down key players, are making the playoffs, still got a point, and all the Flyers did was increase their chances of missing the playoffs AND getting a crappy pick.

 

UnderratedBrooks44

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Wow. You realize he's 30+ goal seasons while playing next to Tyler Bozak, right? That's the main reason people haven't completely written him off. You put him a competent passer and he's good. The biggest problem with Phil right now is how he's approaching the game. He - and by extension his line - will only take off once he gets his **** together.

I understand the frustration but it's kind of insane how the "Phil is dead" talk supersedes any talk of him, for whatever reason, simply not playing well for half a season. If Phil starts bringing it, all will be forgotten. I'm willing to stay patient. Looking motivated and simply scoring a goal early in the first round absolves a lot of sins once it happens.

Also Phil is right-handed, can enter the zone with the puck (granted he's had some eff ups this year) and without question is a better passer than Jake. That is why he's in that spot on the PP so I don't know why that was brought up. Not every coaching decision is an inherent criticism of another player. Jake is the man but he doesn't belong on that spot on the PP.
 
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Icarium

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We're people of different philosophies if you think that because Phil put the shot on net it excuses him for everything else. I'm no stat watcher, but that's just not the way I do takeaways from games. Ironically, Sid can have a great, strong, hard working game - but you blame him for two shifts, therefore his game is bad. Phil can have an assist yet blow chunks the other 95% of his ice time and have a good game?

I didn't say that Kessel's assist excused him for everything else. I have been tearing my hair off because of his play since New Year. But in this particular game I don't see how he was more responsible than Crosby for the lost point. It wasn't so much the number of mistakes Crosby but their nature, you expect better even from a rookie in such situations, let alone a superstar Selke candidate who has a history of torching the Flyers.

We had zone time but not many quality shots on net (and definitely not many he was directly responsible for saving).

Please explain how a shot can be saved without the goalie being "directly responsible" for saving it. And I contend that we had a lot of chances. If the PP had half a clue we would have probably had over 50 shots too.

To say Murray saved the day is asinine.

Good thing nobody is saying that then.

And I still don't understand how two of our D were apparently terrible yet the Flyers couldn't create much. Then again you also claim Phil is getting a pass from all the fans despite having been lambasted regularly on this very forum for months.
 

Gurglesons

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I understand the frustration but it's kind of insane how the "Phil is dead" talk supersedes any talk of him, for whatever reason, simply not playing well for half a season. If Phil starts bringing it, all will be forgotten. I'm willing to stay patient. Looking motivated and simply scoring a goal early in the first round absolves a lot of sins once it happens.

Also Phil is right-handed, can enter the zone with the puck (granted he's had some eff ups this year) and without question is a better passer than Jake. That is why he's in that spot on the PP so I don't know why that was brought up. Not every coaching decision is an inherent criticism of another player. Jake is the man but he doesn't belong on that spot on the PP.

Phil is no longer a fit on this team regardless of his talent.

If he’s trying to be a set up man on the Malkin line. He has no fit, especially with Hornqvist as our third line RW and Jake, McCann and Rust all succeeding on the top line.

The argument has been he creates on our power play. But he’s been pretty terrible there for nearly a calendar year. He’s not 26 anymore, everything in his game points to a Heatley style decline.
 
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UnderratedBrooks44

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Phil is no longer a fit on this team regardless of his talent.

If he’s trying to be a set up man on the Malkin line. He has no fit, especially with Hornqvist as our third line RW and Jake, McCann and Rust all succeeding on the top line.

The argument has been he creates on our power play. But he’s been pretty terrible there for nearly a calendar year. He’s not 26 anymore, everything in his game points to a Heatley style decline.

Heatley was never a great skater, or even close. Completely different situations.
 

molon labe

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Wow. You realize he's 30+ goal seasons while playing next to Tyler Bozak, right? That's the main reason people haven't completely written him off. You put him a competent passer and he's good. The biggest problem with Phil right now is how he's approaching the game. He - and by extension his line - will only take off once he gets his **** together.

He needs to be with the right combination of players to deliver offensive punch. I agree. He won't work with Sid though, because he doesn't crash the net, has horrid board-play, and a terrible one-timer (probably because of the stick he uses). Sid is the best passer on the team but won't be able to do anything for Phil with his playstyle...why they moved him to line one last night befuzzled me. That leaves us Geno, Bjugs, and Cullen. IMO Cullen plays the most similar to Bonino and would/could be the best option but would need to be moved up to line 3. His play down low and on the boards draws enough attention that he could feed a pass out to Phil (similar to Ovi) for a hard shot.

I don't think the cute stuff he pulls with Geno will work come playoff time. Teams have approached the Pens differently since the Ottawa series and that type of stuff gets stifled.
 

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Phil is no longer a fit on this team regardless of his talent.

If he’s trying to be a set up man on the Malkin line. He has no fit, especially with Hornqvist as our third line RW and Jake, McCann and Rust all succeeding on the top line.

The argument has been he creates on our power play. But he’s been pretty terrible there for nearly a calendar year. He’s not 26 anymore, everything in his game points to a Heatley style decline.

Since when is 73 points in 73 games terrible?
 

molon labe

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It wasn't so much the number of mistakes Crosby but their nature, you expect better even from a rookie in such situations, let alone a superstar Selke candidate who has a history of torching the Flyers.

Please explain how a shot can be saved without the goalie being "directly responsible" for saving it. And I contend that we had a lot of chances. If the PP had half a clue we would have probably had over 50 shots too.

And I still don't understand how two of our D were apparently terrible yet the Flyers couldn't create much. Then again you also claim Phil is getting a pass from all the fans despite having been lambasted regularly on this very forum for months.

I agree. Bergeron doesn't make those mistakes in the final minute/overtime. His Selke nods SHOULD take a hit after last night.

Well obviously the goalie is directly responsible. But shots hitting them in the logo, or mask, or post, or leg pad, or wherever - when they're not expecting it, is more the shooter's failure to put the puck in a better spot and less the goalie making a save. This happens quite often and slow-mo exposes it. A goalie will 'feel' the puck hit them, then react - they have no clue where it was but know how to smother it afterward. That's being fortunate, and as always - good goalies are more fortunate than bad ones. The old addage of making your own luck. So, I blame Muzz for nothing - but I'm not going to pretend he was any better than any other night simply because they had two goals. The same goes for Hart. Had we created BETTER chances or didn't have the abysmal power plays, NBC might shut it's mouth about the guy being the goalie of the future.

Petts and Johnson were awful. Genuinely if you watched the game intently (and not passively while working late, taking care of a youngster, or whatever) - they had bad shift after bad shift. Hence being noticeably bad. The Flyers not creating much was as confusing to me as it was their coach. They had many take-aways, decent zone time towards the end - but were not making the right plays or putting the puck on net. Frankly, if they had Simmonds in last nights game we probably lose 3 or 4-1 with the effort our offense showed. Things felt very different compared to normal flyers games (minus the slew foot on Dumo) yet we couldn't do anything.
 

Icarium

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Frankly, if they had Simmonds in last nights game we probably lose 3 or 4-1 with the effort our offense showed. Things felt very different compared to normal flyers games (minus the slew foot on Dumo) yet we couldn't do anything.

I am honestly starting to wonder if you watched the game, so it's better to agree to disagree and move on. ;)

92 points last year when he was also apparently terrible for half the season as well. I'm not saying I'm not at all worried about Phil, but it's getting absurd.

Kessel is a sniper who last sniped an even strength goal last year and a PP playmaker on the team that gives up an absurd amount of short-handed chances and allows the most short-handed goals. Sure, posters here can overdramatic but points don't really the whole story.
 
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vikingGoalie

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So you're saying Hart was spectacular last night? I don't think so. We had zone time but not many quality shots on net (and definitely not many he was directly responsible for saving).
....

I largely agree with your post in it's entirety. Hart was pretty damn good last night. Sure we had a few chest snipes (I groaned when Dumo was setup with the puck on a platter and one timed it right into Hart's chest). But, there were numerous grade a chances that He stopped. Sometimes when you are hitting the post it's because, in the words of Patrick Roy, he's giving you the post ;)

Seriously though, some of those saves Hart had were what we loved about Murray when he first broke in, make difficult saves look routine because of your positioning and reading of the play. We'll see but the Flyers sure look like they have finally solved their goal tending problem..
 

molon labe

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Since when is 73 points in 73 games terrible?

92 points last year when he was also apparently terrible for half the season as well. I'm not saying I'm not at all worried about Phil, but it's getting absurd.

He needs a guy who can battle for pucks in the corner, but also get in front of the net for his rebounds (Hornqvist playing LW?). Geno isn't that guy. Geno is cerebral, but doesn't play like Sid. Bones was that guy - he was great at getting dirty in the corners or finding his way to the net. Since Bones departed, Phil has moved all over the place. He can't play with Sid because his one-timer is terrible and he doesn't crash the net - he's also not great at receiving 'hot' passes. He can (obviously) play with Geno (when Geno is healthy) - but they both need a guy to be net front/grinder with speed and defensive responsibilty. Having him deployed to line 3 opened up so much for the Pens but he's just not that guy these days (and, again, hasn't been since Bones left).

Honestly, I'd shift Cully to line 3 and give that a go. He's similar to Bones in many ways and better in others. They're both cerebral players, both good down low, both great a faceoffs, both can play in front of the net, and both above-average defensively.
 
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ChaosAgent

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BUT, BUT.... HE'S A POINT PER GAME PLAYER!!!!!

Yeah man, there are plenty of folks who are over it. Guentzel is the clear cut choice for PP1 but is the more complete hockey player and A) Will get his points elesewhere, and B) Won't sulk for not getting top unit time.

The classic Phil wrister is a thing of the past. The best we'll see is the hard skate, stop/turn, look for Geno pass. I don't think he's had one single breakaway wrister this entire season (though i've seen one or two forced shots with defenders smothering him). He's a guy who, when not doing the one hockey thing he's good at - is noticeably bad. For whatever reason - Sheary could be the product of Sid and get criticized for his lack of production away from Sid, and his one-dimensional play-style, but a player who is exponentially more expensive, who has the exact same issue (away from Geno/away from PP1) gets a pass from the entire fanbase because he likes hot dogs. As we all know - he's not our biggest issue though...and lord knows what GMJR would do with the cap space if he was dealt.

You are cordially invited to bring this perspective to the salary cap thread, where his PPG is exhaulted and his myriad issues are gleefully ignored.

In fact, I have heard the argument that trading Phil would do more to close our window than his terrible play for the last 11 months (including being our worstwplayer against the Caps last year) has. And his sure-to-be-bad play in this year's playoffs. People want the big name who has a history of putting up points, even if you try to argue that those are inflated by a powerplay that he doesn't even deserve to be on anymore.
 

UnderratedBrooks44

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Kessel is a sniper who last sniped an even strength goal last year and a PP playmaker on the team that gives up an absurd amount of short-handed chances and allows the most short-handed goals. Sure, posters here can overdramatic but points don't really the whole story.

He can play way better. No one's denying that. I'll keep waiting. Again it's not like I'm sitting here fully content and chalking it up to "sometimes that's just the way it goes".
 
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