Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Geno dusts off the old g-mode and puts on a 3rd period show

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KIRK

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Nice post here, I agree with many of your points.

On point #2, I think the game has changed over the last few years to where a guy like Malone '07-'08 isn't quite as effective. Malone '07-'08 was a very good player at that time, but I don't know how good he'd be now. The game moved slower then. Kunitz '11-'12...really Kunitz up until '14-'15 would be a great piece for either Sid or Geno today.

Point #3, I get it. But I'm not talking about 24 year old Malkin or 27 year old Malkin or even last year's 31 year old Malkin. I'm talking about Malkin heading into his graceful decline (now that I've seen his last 5 games, I'm off the ledge that it won't be graceful) at age 33+. So it changes my calculation on his position.

But frankly, we know there will be an incredible amount of line-juggling so nothing would be permanent, either way.

I think the trick here is that the Pens don't have the type of winger he needs (they had Hagelin; they have Rust, but he's not available). It's hard to gauge fairly when Malkin doesn't have a winger to complement him where it matters (I've always said Kunitz was the need and Neal was the luxury, because the need is someone to support him properly in the 200 foot game), and it certainly has been exacerbated by until 2 games ago Malkin having 75% of his shifts with one or more of Johnson, Maatta, or Oleksiak killing things behind him (compared for example to Sid who with Schultz out still had Letang behind him for 60% of his shifts).

I do think Malkin could be okay/productive on the wing, but I think it makes a lot more sense for a GM to make a point of surrounding him with the right help than it does to short change him and then wonder why no 'fixes' work any better than rearranging deck chairs on Titanic.

BTW, I think right now ZAR, for as little as I think of him, is the default LW option, although I have my doubts if it works as well against a top team as it did against a crap team like the Isles. I also think we got a good reminder today of why Geno's is this team's X factor . . . for as much as Sid is the team's best player, Geno is its nexus . . . as he goes (in play and in question of health), the team goes, especially when the games matter most. It's why Dzingel or Ferland should be on JR's radar, just in case Plan ZAR, as I call it, doesn't work out.
 

Al Smith

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Not only does the team defense need work from a structural or systematic standpoint but even just from a fundamental perspective it seems like *nobody* has been willing to take the body, rub someone out on the boards during a cycle, or put someone on their ass in front of the net before they get a 2nd or 3rd wack at a loose puck. We're not built to be a punishing team that is like, basic stuff that should be ingrained into the D-men, if not the collapsing forwards too.

Yes. Many examples today, foremost of which (maybe) was Kreider’s four whacks at the puck in front of Desmith while no one manged to touch him.

Martin’s had his shot with this group all year. I can’t see them fixing the structural issues. IMO, The only thing that will help is if Murray and/or Desmith play like Fleury/Murray in 2017.
 
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Gurglesons

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Not only does the team defense need work from a structural or systematic standpoint but even just from a fundamental perspective it seems like *nobody* has been willing to take the body, rub someone out on the boards during a cycle, or put someone on their ass in front of the net before they get a 2nd or 3rd wack at a loose puck. We're not built to be a punishing team that is like, basic stuff that should be ingrained into the D-men, if not the collapsing forwards too.

For nobody being willing to take the body we lead the league in hits this year.

I’d prefer we stop taking the body.
 

canadianguy77

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The "woe is Malkin" stuff is getting tough for me to read.

People on here are acting like his wingers are chopped liver.Kessel is a 90 point player and Bjugstad pretty much had 50 points a few years ago.

I honestly dont think ZAR is the answer long term, because he tends to get too comfortable and puts force less effort as his comfort level increases.

But with being said, I feel like most of Geno's issues this season are issues Geno created himself. I dont think Bryan Rust would've made much of a difference if any. And let's not pretend that Bryan Rust doesnt have his own warts. He has his moments, but he can be incredibly frustrating at times too.

It seems as though Malkin has snapped out of whatever funk he's been in, so hopefully this all moot now.
 

treeni12

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Oct 30, 2018
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LOL at people who compare Crosby and Malkin. Other has two tailor made wingers and plays always with top-3 defense pairing in the league behind him.
Other has broken down Kessel and some random bottom sixer and obviously Johnsson-x behind him. What the hell you think is going to happen?

Sullivan knows there isn't lot he can do with this D corp. so for him it's easier just keep Crosby happy
 
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Pens x

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LOL at people who compare Crosby and Malkin. Other has two tailor made wingers and plays always with top-3 defense pairing in the league behind him.
Other has broken down Kessel and some random bottom sixer and obviously Johnsson-x behind him. What the hell you think is going to happen?

Sullivan knows there isn't lot he can do with this D corp. so for him it's easier just keep Crosby happy
He could bench Johnson’s sorry ***
 

ChaosAgent

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BTW, I think right now ZAR, for as little as I think of him, is the default LW option, although I have my doubts if it works as well against a top team as it did against a crap team like the Isles. I also think we got a good reminder today of why Geno's is this team's X factor . . . for as much as Sid is the team's best player, Geno is its nexus . . . as he goes (in play and in question of health), the team goes, especially when the games matter most. It's why Dzingel or Ferland should be on JR's radar, just in case Plan ZAR, as I call it, doesn't work out.

Yeah, you need a combination of speed, grit and some skill. And smarts. Really of the current team, Rust is perfect. You're right Malkin needs Rust and I think Sid should just suck it up and take on Kessel or Hornqvist. Sid-Jake + Letang in the backend is such a possession monster that Kessel can be more asset than liability (again).

But if Rust is off the table, here's my Geno winger power rankings:

1) Bleuger has some speed, definite skill and smarts and isn't afraid to mix it up. He wouldn't be bad to try.
2) ZAR has frankly played very well since returning and has "earned" his way onto Malkin's line. Ride it until it fails, which is going to happen soon.
3) McCann hasn't yet been tried, but I'm betting he will be at some point soon. Speed galore.
4) Hornqvist's speed isn't there and we have to hope he turns it around skill-wise for the playoffs. The grit is obviously fantastic. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see him flanking Malkin
5) Simon has the skill/smarts, but lacks any sort of grit and doesn't have top-end speed
6) Bjugstad has "speed" but not start-stop kind of speed. I'd prefer to not see him with Geno
7) Pearson isn't terrible, but he is a disappointment. I don't think he's a Penguin after the deadline.

Cullen...okay wait is that completely crazy? (Gives head a shake) Can't play that many minutes/game at ES.

Edit: Okay I've talked myself into Cullen, if he can handle the minutes. Bluegs/Bjugs/Canns get 3c/4c. Sounds silly until you consider the type of 2-way, intelligent, gritty/jammy player that compliments Geno well. If it can't be Rust, Cullen is the 2nd best choice. All are welcome aboard this ridiculous bandwagon.
 
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ronduguayshair

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If Malkin was as good as some people here think he is then he would make his linemates better just like Sid does.

The excuses are sickening. Why should a 9 million dollar player be coddled like a baby?

He’s a great player when we wants to be but his inconsistent effort and focus cheapens the overall product. He is what he is.
 

KIRK

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If Malkin was as good as some people here think he is then he would make his linemates better just like Sid does.

The excuses are sickening. Why should a 9 million dollar player be coddled like a baby?

He’s a great player when we wants to be but his inconsistent effort and focus cheapens the overall product. He is what he is.

If you traded Sid's and Geno's linemates, if you put Sid out there without a LW or with a 4th line flavor of the moment, if you put one of Johnson and Olli behind Sid 75% of the time AND gave Geno Jake-Rust and Letang behind him 60% of the time, what would happen?

And before you tell me Sid would make them all better and has never been in a brutal funk before, think really carefully to what happened before Therrien and Johnston were fired . . .

I get it. You think Geno has been on a downhill since 2012. You think he was a passenger for the last 2 cups and forget he's the reason the Pens managed to avoid missing the playoffs last year.

But, agree to disagree . . .
 

KIRK

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Yeah, you need a combination of speed, grit and some skill. And smarts. Really of the current team, Rust is perfect. You're right Malkin needs Rust and I think Sid should just suck it up and take on Kessel or Hornqvist. Sid-Jake + Letang in the backend is such a possession monster that Kessel can be more asset than liability (again).

But if Rust is off the table, here's my Geno winger power rankings:

1) Bleuger has some speed, definite skill and smarts and isn't afraid to mix it up. He wouldn't be bad to try.
2) ZAR has frankly played very well since returning and has "earned" his way onto Malkin's line. Ride it until it fails, which is going to happen soon.
3) McCann hasn't yet been tried, but I'm betting he will be at some point soon. Speed galore.
4) Hornqvist's speed isn't there and we have to hope he turns it around skill-wise for the playoffs. The grit is obviously fantastic. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see him flanking Malkin
5) Simon has the skill/smarts, but lacks any sort of grit and doesn't have top-end speed
6) Bjugstad has "speed" but not start-stop kind of speed. I'd prefer to not see him with Geno
7) Pearson isn't terrible, but he is a disappointment. I don't think he's a Penguin after the deadline.

Cullen...okay wait is that completely crazy? (Gives head a shake) Can't play that many minutes/game at ES.

Edit: Okay I've talked myself into Cullen, if he can handle the minutes. Bluegs/Bjugs/Canns get 3c/4c. Sounds silly until you consider the type of 2-way, intelligent, gritty/jammy player that compliments Geno well. If it can't be Rust, Cullen is the 2nd best choice. All are welcome aboard this ridiculous bandwagon.

Rust is off the table because although Rust has had a better history with Geno than Sid, well . . . @ronduguayshair, do you want to explain this one?
 

ChaosAgent

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May 8, 2018
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If Malkin was as good as some people here think he is then he would make his linemates better just like Sid does.

The excuses are sickening. Why should a 9 million dollar player be coddled like a baby?

He’s a great player when we wants to be but his inconsistent effort and focus cheapens the overall product. He is what he is.

It's tough, man. The Penguins as a team aren't clicking systematically. 2 of our defensive pairings are bad...and Malkin is almost always playing in front of one of them.

Also, two highest-paid wingers are...problematic ES players for us. I'm hoping #72 turns it around based on his track record, but I know that #81 can only work in certain situations. Phil is the one who really needs to be sheltered/coddled. The old swiss army-knife two way winger - Hagelin - regressed then was traded for a lukewarm body. The Florida guys are still in a wait-and-see state. All-in-all, our forward mix is weird right now.

And I don't think asking for a Rust-type is unreasonable coddling. Especially because I don't think he really needs the $6.8M Kessel-type on the other flank if he gets the Rust-type.
 

Ryder71

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Nov 24, 2017
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I mean what JR said last year about Tortorella scratching Johnsson It would be huge embarrassment to scratch him this soon.
It would be even more embarrassing if we get trounced in round 1, or worse yet not making the playoffs at all. And if JJ continues along his current course one of those scenarios is very likely to happen. Enough with this JJ stuff already, it's not gonna work. This signing is a total and complete disaster. How management and the coaching staff cannot see this, or even worse continue to ignore it is beyond comprehension.
 

KIRK

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Aug 2, 2005
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It's tough, man. The Penguins as a team aren't clicking systematically. 2 of our defensive pairings are bad...and Malkin is almost always playing in front of one of them.

Also, two highest-paid wingers are...problematic ES players for us. I'm hoping #72 turns it around based on his track record, but I know that #81 can only work in certain situations. Phil is the one who really needs to be sheltered/coddled. The old swiss army-knife two way winger - Hagelin - regressed then was traded for a lukewarm body. The Florida guys are still in a wait-and-see state. All-in-all, our forward mix is weird right now.

And I don't think asking for a Rust-type is unreasonable coddling. Especially because I don't think he really needs the $6.8M Kessel-type on the other flank if he gets the Rust-type.

Doc, I actually ran the numbers with Schultz out.

Geno was getting 75%+ of his ES shifts with 1 or 2 of Johnson, Maatta, or Oleksiak (even given how little he played).

Sid was getting 60%+ of his ES shifts with Letang.

You'd think @ronduguayshair would notice the difference, but like Malkin he's never been big on the details of the game. ;)
 

Coach Travis

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The "woe is Malkin" stuff is getting tough for me to read.

People on here are acting like his wingers are chopped liver.Kessel is a 90 point player and Bjugstad pretty much had 50 points a few years ago.

I honestly dont think ZAR is the answer long term, because he tends to get too comfortable and puts force less effort as his comfort level increases.

But with being said, I feel like most of Geno's issues this season are issues Geno created himself. I dont think Bryan Rust would've made much of a difference if any. And let's not pretend that Bryan Rust doesnt have his own warts. He has his moments, but he can be incredibly frustrating at times too.

It seems as though Malkin has snapped out of whatever funk he's been in, so hopefully this all moot now.
For me, the main thing with Malkin is his line is getting passes like they've been shot with a potato gun from JJ, as he is the most regular defenceman with him. Now that you have Schultz delivering crisp passes into the NZ and Geno doesn't have to hang back with the D, you're starting to see some controlled entries which Geno turns into his whole "galloping around the OZ with the puck"-thing.
 

ChaosAgent

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Doc, I actually ran the numbers with Schultz out.

Geno was getting 75%+ of his ES shifts with 1 or 2 of Johnson, Maatta, or Oleksiak (even given how little he played).

Sid was getting 60%+ of his ES shifts with Letang.

You'd think @ronduguayshair would notice the difference, but like Malkin he's never been big on the details of the game. ;)

As much as I'd like Dzingel for Malkin, I think adding another good defenseman would benefit Geno and the team more. Your numbers back it up. Maybe it's possible to get both, but our cupboard would be 100% empty afterwards. We'd better sell & retool this summer (to be fair we should do this anyway). Besides...I just identified Malkin's ideal not-Rust linemate so we're good:

page_1_thumb_large.jpg
 
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