Cole's Plus/Minus: Game 2 - The Murray and Sid show!

Peat

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What’s their job? If you don’t think it’s to score but only to prevent goals against, then McCann’s line is doing its job...BART isn’t but that’s another matter...if you think they need to contribute offensively, then they are far away as you say...

At minimum - keep the scoreboard guys pretty bored, help build momentum for the other guys; timely goals, working their defence and goalie hard, shielding ours, big hits, ending shifts in their zone, etc.etc. Maybe that just goes down to "Don't die" if taking a hard match up so our top lines can get at their bottom lines. Obviously the aim should be more than minimum though.

Right now they're at a cumulative -3 (2 for Bart, one for McPats) and getting the worst of chances. Going from eyesight memory, I've felt a little more unsafe about their defence than excited about their attack. I can't think of a guy there where I'd think "have faith, he'll score if he keeps getting chances like that".

Breaking down the centres vs line in terms of shot metrics, most common match-up to worst, to see if that maybe explains things (most common 2 are a lot more common than less common)

TB vs Suzuki - Utterly dominant
TB vs Danault - Utterly dominated
TB vs Kotkaniemi - Utterly dominated
TB vs Domi - Utterly dominant

Well TB is matching up. And I don't really understand how there's such a wild difference in terms of what's happening depending on who he's against. Don't know how to predict what happens next with that.

JM vs Kotkaniemi - Very slightly better
JM vs Domi - Very slightly better
JM vs Suzuki - Dominated
JM vs Danault - Utterly Dominated

I think if McCann is going to be going against other bottom 6 lines, the line needs to be doing better. And the time with the top six is going very bad.

Looking at the stats, maybe they're closer than I thought. Or maybe not. But there's a lot of room for improvement there.
 
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KIRK

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@Peat, that's not very encouraging stuff from BART . . . if they can't be trusted against Danault's line (and the 3rd line is just as bad), then I don't see how you trust them against the top lines from the top 4 teams in the East.

I suppose your stuck asking that of Sid, which is fine against Danault, but I'm not sure what I think of Sid and the Kids (specifically one of the kids playing on his off wing) against whoever the Pens would face if they make next round.

I think there's an outside chance that Zucker-Geno-Rust could do it, but it's a big role change and would take the necessary buy in that can only come from Sully chatting Geno up/telling him to focus only on the shut down role and not worry about the points . . . that's hypothetical though, because I could even see Sully splitting Sid and Jake before he'd ever do that.

Anyway, BART not being a legit defensive line you can trust against Danault puts Sully in a bit of a bind . . .
 
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2wayPlay

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All this talk about ZAR and switching him out for another fringe NHL player amuses me. That has nothing to do with winning or losing this series. Even though I agree ZAR sucks, the odds of Laff or anybody else in that spot scoring is .001%

The issue is the PP and Geno by a Country Mile. Especially the PP. If we scored 1 more PP goal in each game this series is a laugher. 1/7 Game 1 0/5 Game 2. Fix it or we most likely lose this series Unless Murray gives up 2 or less each game.
 
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ColePens

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All this talk about ZAR and switching him out for another fringe NHL player amuses me. That has nothing to do with winning or losing this series. Even though I agree ZAR sucks, the odds of Laff or anybody else in that spot scoring is .001%

The issue is the PP and Geno by a Country Mike. Especially the PP. If we scored 1 more PP goal in each game this series is a laugher. 1/7 Game 1 0/5 Game 2. Fix it or we most likely lose this series Unless Murray gives up 2 or less each game.
Sadly exactly what I was thinking. It's like people want them to lose just to vent.

I was talking to my brother all day about Murray. So happy for him.

Dat powerplay tho........
 

Gurglesons

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Sadly exactly what I was thinking. It's like people want them to lose just to vent.

I was talking to my brother all day about Murray. So happy for him.

Dat powerplay tho........

It seems to be a recent phenomenon since the 17 cup run. I swear some people on here were way more caught up in waiting for the other shoe to drop then enjoy the improbability of that run.

Hell, Pitt in general. That’s why I got to go to Game 5 of a cup final for less than 500 bucks for two.
 

DearDiary

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I counted 2 high danger scoring chances created by McCann, 1 to Rust and another to Marleau. Why are people acting like he did nothing? Both of those should have led to goals
 

Speaking Moistly

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It seems to be a recent phenomenon since the 17 cup run. I swear some people on here were way more caught up in waiting for the other shoe to drop then enjoy the improbability of that run.

Hell, Pitt in general. That’s why I got to go to Game 5 of a cup final for less than 500 bucks for two.


Oh, I really wouldn’t call it recent. If the wins used to have more comments it was people raging about Bylsma, the roster and whatever even if they won. The board hasn’t been the happiest bunch in my time here.
 

Pittsburgh1776

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@Peat, that's not very encouraging stuff from BART . . . if they can't be trusted against Danault's line (and the 3rd line is just as bad), then I don't see how you trust them against the top lines from the top 4 teams in the East.

I suppose your stuck asking that of Sid, which is fine against Danault, but I'm not sure what I think of Sid and the Kids (specifically one of the kids playing on his off wing) against whoever the Pens would face if they make next round.

I think there's an outside chance that Zucker-Geno-Rust could do it, but it's a big role change and would take the necessary buy in that can only come from Sully chatting Geno up/telling him to focus only on the shut down role and not worry about the points . . . that's hypothetical though, because I could even see Sully splitting Sid and Jake before he'd ever do that.

Anyway, BART not being a legit defensive line you can trust against Danault puts Sully in a bit of a bind . . .

Lol @KIRK, that this is even an option is a sign of how far we've come from the 2-3 month run Malkin had leading this team. Regardless, Sullivan doesn't get it. He never has with 71.
 

Gurglesons

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Oh, I really wouldn’t call it recent. If the wins used to have more comments it was people raging about Bylsma, the roster and whatever even if they won. The board hasn’t been the happiest bunch in my time here.

The Bylsma push back didn’t come until 2012 and 2013. It was deserved. At this point Sullivan is 50/50 for cups in his time as a coach in the playoffs.

I get it. We don’t look sharp. But, like give the dude a break and root for the team. We are far away from the Bylsma era.
 

Pittsburgh1776

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The Bylsma push back didn’t come until 2012 and 2013. It was deserved. At this point Sullivan is 50/50 for cups in his time as a coach in the playoffs.

I get it. We don’t look sharp. But, like give the dude a break and root for the team. We are far away from the Bylsma era.

We are, but Sullivan displays way too much of that stubbornness, for me. We'll never be in danger of the weirdly childish atmosphere of those years, but I've been really disappointed in his lack of flexibility since 2017. I don't think our roster is bad, it's more than enough to do damage this year, but I don't like the lineup he has chosen. That said, players supporting eachother better on the ice will cover up a lot of the issues
 

Speaking Moistly

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The Bylsma push back didn’t come until 2012 and 2013. It was deserved. At this point Sullivan is 50/50 for cups in his time as a coach in the playoffs.

I get it. We don’t look sharp. But, like give the dude a break and root for the team. We are far away from the Bylsma era.

I didn’t mean Sullivan is Bylsma. Just that this place being more into being negative isn’t a recent phenomenon and when the post game win threads were bigger a lot of it was complaining like a loss.
 

no cup no fiesta

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What other teams in the East would be having trouble with Montreal right now and why?

All of them? Price is playing one hell of a series. Can the Pens be better, sure. They can always play better. But...
Murray is played like a two time cup champ.
Sid looks good and is carrying his line.
Geno is playing solid hockey.
Power play sucks but they are still generating chances at even strength and playing good solid hockey against a team playing a good trap game. Its the god dam play offs, it aint always easy or perfect. Give the Habs some credit, they are playing solid structured hockey but the pens have not gotten frustrated and have battled. Be f***ing proud of the boys.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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When he’s at wing it’s, “he needs to be at C to have the puck more and dictate things.” I think he’s just an inconsistent player having a bad streak at a bad time, but he doesn’t fit W or C perfectly at this point. Maybe something eventually clicks, idk.

I don't think McCann's got the skillset for anyone to want him to dictate things. He's Pascal Dupuis with better puck control.
 

Gurglesons

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I don't think McCann's got the skillset for anyone to want him to dictate things. He's Pascal Dupuis with better puck control.

McCann has a skill set, its just he needs play drivers on his wing to help it. He's not the player that is going to carry a line. Do we expect that from our 3C? I dunno, I don't think we've had that since Staal and I'd argue he didn't necessarily carry a line.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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McCann has a skill set, its just he needs play drivers on his wing to help it. He's not the player that is going to carry a line. Do we expect that from our 3C? I dunno, I don't think we've had that since Staal and I'd argue he didn't necessarily carry a line.

I think Bonino was more closer to a play driving 3C than McCann is. I think his overall offensive vision is better than McCann's. McCann just seems like the type that struggles at a position where he needs to use more of the ice instead of just being a up and down the wing type.
 

Gurglesons

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I think Bonino was more closer to a play driving 3C than McCann is. I think his overall offensive vision is better than McCann's. McCann just seems like the type that struggles at a position where he needs to use more of the ice instead of just being a up and down the wing type.

I think we saw a whole lot of what McCann looks like now with Marleau and Hornqvist when he was with Hags and Hornqvist in the 2nd Cup run. Difference being Hagelin helped lift that line up a ton defensively despite being an offensive black hole.

Bonino was a little better of a playmaker though, I agree. But I think McCann could've done a good job perpetuating Hags and Kessel.
 

EightyOne

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They just need to kick them in the balls

Go out and score some goals, stop waiting for the Habs to gift them
 
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Peat

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@Peat, that's not very encouraging stuff from BART . . . if they can't be trusted against Danault's line (and the 3rd line is just as bad), then I don't see how you trust them against the top lines from the top 4 teams in the East.

I suppose your stuck asking that of Sid, which is fine against Danault, but I'm not sure what I think of Sid and the Kids (specifically one of the kids playing on his off wing) against whoever the Pens would face if they make next round.

I think there's an outside chance that Zucker-Geno-Rust could do it, but it's a big role change and would take the necessary buy in that can only come from Sully chatting Geno up/telling him to focus only on the shut down role and not worry about the points . . . that's hypothetical though, because I could even see Sully splitting Sid and Jake before he'd ever do that.

Anyway, BART not being a legit defensive line you can trust against Danault puts Sully in a bit of a bind . . .

Tbf, best as I can work out, struggling to hold one top line then stoning the next isn't that unusual for BART. They struggled with MacKinnon regular season but went to town on McDavid. Which might just be a function of small samples rather than some some obscure match-up thing. One big shift can change everything - Malkin's xGF% drops radically when confronted with Danault instead of Gallagher or Tatar, and those guys have barely been apart. Or maybe it's about what D pairings see which lines (and not necessarily JJ-Schultz, currently statistically okay) as Crosby's and Malkin's lines are also struggling with Kotkaniemi. Or I've no bloody idea tbh. But I'd hesitate to draw much conclusive. Sid is doing fine with Danault though, and Malkin's doing better with Suzuki, so I trust them to take most of the match-ups so far except maybe with Bergeron going forwards.

I will say this about BART and McPat - they are getting outchanced but it's not turning into shots. 6 against BART, I think 5 against McPat. We need more from them at the other end of the ice but they're close on their defensive duties.
 

Scandale du Jour

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@Peat, that's not very encouraging stuff from BART . . . if they can't be trusted against Danault's line (and the 3rd line is just as bad), then I don't see how you trust them against the top lines from the top 4 teams in the East.

I suppose your stuck asking that of Sid, which is fine against Danault, but I'm not sure what I think of Sid and the Kids (specifically one of the kids playing on his off wing) against whoever the Pens would face if they make next round.

I think there's an outside chance that Zucker-Geno-Rust could do it, but it's a big role change and would take the necessary buy in that can only come from Sully chatting Geno up/telling him to focus only on the shut down role and not worry about the points . . . that's hypothetical though, because I could even see Sully splitting Sid and Jake before he'd ever do that.

Anyway, BART not being a legit defensive line you can trust against Danault puts Sully in a bit of a bind . . .

To be fair, the only other center similar to Danault on the top 4 teams is Bergeron (maybe Couturier).

All the other top centers are most offensive minded. BART can defend. They can also cycle and play keep away. However, guys like Danault (and Bergeron and Couturier) are elite at retrieving pucks and winning battles. Not a good match up, I fear.

I feel more confident about BART playing shutdown than I am about them playing an elite two-way line.
 
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Peat

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To be fair, the only other center similar to Danault on the top 4 teams is Bergeron (maybe Couturier).

All the other top centers are most offensive minded. BART can defend. They can also cycle and play keep away. However, guys like Danault (and Bergeron and Couturier) are elite at retrieving pucks and winning battles. Not a good match up, I fear.

I feel more confident about BART playing shutdown than I am about them playing an elite two-way line.

Because I'm bored...

Blueger (I dunno whether this is BART, easier to find as individual players) mainly played against Bergeron's line when playing Boston. He's got unhappy xGF% against Bergeron and is 0-0, but is 1-0 against Pasta and Marchand with a plus 50 xGF%. The line has virtually identical TOI vs BART. I can only presume Bergeron got off for a shift change and the rest of his linemates didn't on a shift that resulted in BART generating a really good chance or two and scoring from it.

Let see... struggled with Kopitar and Barkov, good against Eichel and Barzal, squashed ROR but not Schenn, not too hot with Matthews or Tavares, great against Vancouver, great against Karlsson but not Stone and Stastny,

Played mainly against Hayes and was good vs him, poor in the limited sample vs Couturier

Just generically very bad against Tampa

Mostly played Eller and wasn't too hot, good vs both Backstrom and Kuznetsov

It's not quite universal but this theory seems to check out.
 
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