Confirmed with Link: [COL/NYR] Holden for a 4th round pick
- Thread starter Avs_19
- Start date
- Status
Agreed. While we'll never have the whole story and Sakic certainly needs to take his share of the blame...just because someone suggests something, doesn't mean to go along for the ride...there is a lot of evidence that indicates very, very curious decisions when it comes to Roy.
When we think back to the Downey for Talbot deal, we were all on a huge 'high' from the 14-2 start to really care that much about how that went down. Downey did have 7 pts in 11 gp when that happened but when the news surfaced that a whole bunch of other GMs didn't even know he was available, that was kind of a head scratcher. As it turned out, Talbot was at the end of the road and so was Downie but that's neither here nor there. The fact that the due dillligence wasn't done in this case was the problem.
As I keep saying over and over, if Roy's suggestions/decisions were GOOD there is no reason to gradually freeze him out.
Agreed. For me, THAT'S the issue. Roy didn't say anything that wasn't true. Holden was one of our best d-men on some nights last season. The fact that he apparently sees nothing wrong with that IS the problem. A large 90% of fans (if not more) on this board saw it as a problem and our GM/Management team saw it as a problem as well so they jettisoned him for whatever they could get.
Personally, the fact that Roy didn't agree with the Jost pick pissed me off, big time! It's almost as if he never seen him play, read the line that he was 5'11" and 190lbs and immediately disagreed.He's going to look foolish on that one, you can bank on it.
I think you need to get your "facts" straight. That's some crazy spin to act as if Roy was happy with Holden as one of our better Dmen. Sure doesn't sound like Roy didn't see anything wrong with Holden being one of our better Dmen. Calling someone a #6 on a good team isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. Seems to me Roy wasn't happy with the D group and not only did we not bring in any help for the top4 but we trade away Holden, who was our 4th best Dman, while keeping Gelinas, which is looking foolish. Everyone saw the "problem". Roy wanted to fix it. Sakic is willing to wait. The solution certainly isn't to jettison out our 4th best Dman just because he shouldnt be our 4th best. The solution is to find better players so that he is no longer the 4th best. We still have the same damn problem unless one of the kids step up. Kids we would still have available to put on the ice even if Holden was still here.
[MOD]
Last edited by a moderator:
a mangy Meowth
Ross Colton Fan
LieutenantDangle
Barry McKockner
we have one Patrick Wiercioch that costs half the price as one Nick Holden and got a draft pick for dead weight. What's the ish?
Last edited by a moderator:
Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
- Aug 8, 2006
- 45,300
- 9,465
Holden is a top 4 defender as much as HUnwick was a top pairing defender under Sacco. May a top 6 forward under Q or Clearly a top 6 forward under Babcock.
You can throw as much makeup on a pig as you'd like at the end of the day...it's still just a pig. If this was one of the reasons why Roy left, he's worse than I thought.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
When did Roy say that? Cause that's not in the article no matter how you want to twist Roy'a words.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
Holden was a competent middle pairing guy for two months to start last season and for a few months in 2013-2014. That was him playing at his peak and for most of the time he was a bottom pairing guy (or even worse), but for stretches of time he was a passable #4 by play, not just by usage.
Foppa2118
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2003
- 52,267
- 31,333
This is just getting crazy. There were not four better defenseman than Nick Holden on the Avs. How come once Roy's name comes up in a subject, the level of objective analysis just drops through the floor?
He said "he could be anywhere from a fourth to a sixth defenseman on a good team, depending on where his game was."
Meaning, at his peak, the best games he will play all year, there will still be three other defenseman playing better than him. You could describe a boatload of third pairing defenseman the same way. At the top of their game, many are capable of playing as #4's a few times during a season.
This is not some smoking gun showing that Roy thought Holden was Nick Lidstrom, the way you guys are making it out to be. If anything it shows that Roy thought Holden should ideally be playing where most of us thought he should be, on the 3rd pairing.
He said "he could be anywhere from a fourth to a sixth defenseman on a good team, depending on where his game was."
Meaning, at his peak, the best games he will play all year, there will still be three other defenseman playing better than him. You could describe a boatload of third pairing defenseman the same way. At the top of their game, many are capable of playing as #4's a few times during a season.
This is not some smoking gun showing that Roy thought Holden was Nick Lidstrom, the way you guys are making it out to be. If anything it shows that Roy thought Holden should ideally be playing where most of us thought he should be, on the 3rd pairing.
Apologies. I was on my phone and didn't feel like going back to the article.
"You just got one of my better defensemen."
Still not materially different from what I said. Regardless, the issue is that Roy basically looked at Holden as a defensive asset so much so that he called his new coach to pump his tires. AV even said the call was unexpected.
The whole thing feels strangely similar to that scene in moneyball when Beane tells Howe he can't start Peña, because he traded him. I always thought Holden was a solid bottom pairing option. I think he very well may have been traded (for practically nothing), because the GM and Coach disagreed on his role.
Last edited:
They wouldn't even be playing the same role. We also have Gelinas who costs the same amount as Holden and plays the same role as one Patrick Wiercioch and well, he just hasn't shown to be as good as either one.
I'm taking issue with Bender saying 90% of the world saw the problem with Holden being in the top 4, so we got rid of him. You don't jettison out your 4th best Dman just because he shouldn't be your 4th best. That's just stupid assets management. You drop your worst players, bring in better players at the top and have the guy who is playing over his head put into his proper role. You don't just get rid of him and hope that fixes the problem.
Like I said, we still have the exact same problem. We still have EJ, Beauch and Barrie and are hoping one of the kids or a another bottom pair player can step up and fill in as our 4th best player. If Zadorov struggles should we jettison him out? If Wiercioch can't play top4 should we jettison him out simply because he can't fill that role, or would it be better to just put him in a lower role?
And you guys are twisting that into a legit top4 player. He said he is a #4 to a #6 on a good team. That is not a legit #4. That's someone capable of filling in and occasionally being in the top4. It's obvious Roy thought of him as someone who should be on the bottom pair on a team with a good roster.
So I'll ask again, who is calling Holden a legit #4?
Last edited by a moderator:
Bender
Registered User
- Sep 25, 2002
- 17,252
- 8,459
Exactly this. People can debate #4 on a good team/bad team all they want, they are missing the point. Sakic sat above in his box and saw the issue with Holden, most fans on this forum saw the issues as well. It doesn't look like Roy agreed that Holden was part of the problem and his insistance to play him up in the lineup forced Sakic to deal him.
People suggesting that this is some sort of agenda to put all the blame on Roy need to wake up and see things for what they are.
RockLobster
King in the North
Whatever.
Because whenever Roy's name is brought up, it brings out the same contingent of people who are all too ready to lay the blame for everything that went wrong at his feet. You can try and act like that's not the case, but you'd be wrong, and this thread is proof of that.
What AV is saying Roy told him is factually true for the time that Holden was in an Avalanche uniform. He was among the Top-4 best defenders the team has, which actually tells you how bad the Avs D was. Further more, there was literally no one else better to supplant Holden during his time here. They experimented with Zadorov and Bigras a little bit last year, but both showed they needed more time in the AHL.
But I'm sure that this won't be the last time that particular contingent starts in on all of that. And I'm sure that the majority of the posting content of that matter will be faceplam-inducing.
[EDIT]
And now I see that the thread was closed (and not by me). Probably for the better as I said yesterday this Roy stuff really wasn't "news", and all it did was provide certain posters a means to post even more of their ridiculous hot-takes.
- Status
