Confirmed with Link: [COL/NYR] Holden for a 4th round pick

[klozge]

You should re-read what I said. I agreed w/ Roy's assessment of Holden when you look at Holden's entire time in an Avalanche uniform. You mention 3 players from last year only, but to go off of that, Roy was still accurate in describing him as "anywhere from a #4 to a #6", so as a #4 he'd be right behind those three you mentioned.

Don't forget Hejda who basically got replaced by Beauchemin. So I still think saying Holden was one of the better dmen is simply incorrect. However, I do believe Holden can be #5 or #6 on a good team because he improved a lot in Colorado. #4, though? No, at least not in my opinion.

Edit: Well, Roy said "depending on where his game was", and "better defensemen" might mean "better than Guenin". So maybe it really is much ado about nothing.

 

[Avs_19]

I don't know, it seemed like news to me. Others seem to agree based on the reaction here and on twitter, a Rangers reporter writing about it, and NBC sports putting an article up.

 

[Alex Jones]

I mean, the stuff Roy said wasn't necessarily wrong, save for the fact that he overrates Holden. In 2002 Roy probably would have been right with that evaluation, but you simply cannot have a guy that can't pass the puck in the modern NHL.

 

[dahrougem2]

"...depending on where his game was."

Saying the absolute best your game is capable of taking you to is a #4, is not some lofty endorsement. You could say that about a lot of crappy D men who are capable of playing decent a few times throughout a season.

I'm sure it never occurred to anyone that Roy probably also gave him some negative reviews of his game, and positions he struggles with, and what the best way to coach him was, but AV obviously wouldn't air that publicly.

Regardless of where his game was at one point in the season compared to another, if you're going into a season and Nick Holden is your #4 defensemen I don't think your team will have a very good defence corps.

 

[henchman21]

It is all relative... If Nashville had Holden behind Subban, Josi, and one of Ekholm/Ellis, they'd still have one of the best defenses in the game.

 

[dahrougem2]

It is all relative... If Nashville had Holden behind Subban, Josi, and one of Ekholm/Ellis, they'd still have one of the best defenses in the game.

Sure, but there are few teams in the league with the luxury of having an excellent first three defensemen.

 

[cgf]

“He told us he could be anywhere from a fourth to a sixth defenseman on a good team, depending on where his game was."

What's wrong with that statement?

 

[Foppa2118]

What's wrong with that statement?

Nothing IMO. It was getting ignored in favor of the usual narrative.

 

[tucker3434]

Nothing IMO. It was getting ignored in favor of the usual narrative.

It was getting ignored in favor of the quote "he was one of our best defensemen" which is now no longer a narrative but a fact that Roy thought that.

 

[tigervixxxen]

If Holden was a real #4 defenseman then life would have been a lot different around here and on the ice for the last few years.

I get it, it's easy to single Holden out and laugh when he was far from the problem but he was not the solution either, far from it. Good for him continuing his career on in a big role, not unlike Hunwick. But let's not rewrite history here on the Holden era.

 

[cgf]

It was getting ignored in favor of the quote "he was one of our best defensemen" which is now no longer a narrative but a fact that Roy thought that.

Don't see what's wrong with that statement either. Holden was our third or fourth best dman through Roy's tenure. Only Kondor & t-boobs bested Holden until Beauch arrived.

 

[RockLobster]

It was getting ignored in favor of the quote "he was one of our best defensemen" which is now no longer a narrative but a fact that Roy thought that.

For all 3 seasons he was in an Avs uniform, here are the Defenseman who were *consistently* better than him:

2013-14: EJ, Barrie, Hejda

2014-15: EJ, Barrie, Hejda

2015-16: EJ, Barrie, Beauchemin

Like it or not (and I am not a big Nick Holden fan), Holden legitimately was one of the Avs' better defensemen for the 3 years he was here...which, as I said before, is more of an indictment of how bad the Avs D was.

And the whole scope of Roy's quote was that he's a #4-6 on a good team, depending on how his game is. But I guess it's easier to just gloss/skip over that on the way to sensationalizing the "OMG, see guys!?"

 

[cgf]

Hejda wasn't better than Holden in 2014-2015 or much of 2013-2014 for that matter. Hejda fell off a cliff during the 2013-2014 season.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

It was getting ignored in favor of the quote "he was one of our best defensemen" which is now no longer a narrative but a fact that Roy thought that.

If your going to quote someone at least get it right.

And unfortunately Holden being one of our better Dmen isn't inaccurate. Our group of Dmen have been quite weak.

 

[Foppa2118]

Don't see what's wrong with that statement either. Holden was our third or fourth best dman through Roy's tenure. Only Kondor & t-boobs bested Holden until Beauch arrived.

It's amazing that people still don't realize how bad the Avs defense actually was. This is the first time in forever that the Avs have an actual top 4 that would keep Holden out of it.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

If Holden was a real #4 defenseman then life would have been a lot different around here and on the ice for the last few years.

I get it, it's easy to single Holden out and laugh when he was far from the problem but he was not the solution either, far from it. Good for him continuing his career on in a big role, not unlike Hunwick. But let's not rewrite history here on the Holden era.

Who is rewriting history or thinking he was the solution?

 

[tigervixxxen]

It's amazing that people still don't realize how bad the Avs defense actually was. This is the first time in forever that the Avs have an actual top 4 that would keep Holden out of it.

It wouldn't have, that's kinda the point.

If Holden was fine as a #4 then we could have saved hundreds of thousands of posts and hopes for trades to bring in new defenseman on an hourly basis.

 

[dahrougem2]

Fact is Holden would not have gotten traded for a 4th round pick, while other defensemen like Wiercioch, Tyutin, and Gelinas were brought in to battle for spots if he was legitimately capable of being a #4 defensemen.

 

[Foppa2118]

It wouldn't have, that's kinda the point.

If Holden was fine as a #4 then we could have saved hundreds of thousands of posts and hopes for trades to bring in new defenseman on an hourly basis.

As soon as Z proved he was ready, there would be no room for Holden in the top 4. It's speculation at this point whether that would have happened during camp, or the begining of the season, or the end, but it would have happened eventually.

 

[Joe Sakic]

Holden was a #4 on this team. Part of the reason we have sucked the past few years. He is ideally a #6 or #7, but could pass as a #5 imo.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Don't see what's wrong with that statement either. Holden was our third or fourth best dman through Roy's tenure. Only Kondor & t-boobs bested Holden until Beauch arrived.

This doesn't make him a good player or even an NHL caliber player. It was Roy(and Sakic's) fault he was one of the better defenders on a **** team. Signing and extending over the hill players, dumpster diving in the AHL for journeymen players and expecting to compete these are all failures on the FO...which includes Roy.

I'm not even sure what narrative some are suggesting here... the bottom line is do you guys think Roy was a good coach? After 3 seasons, anyone who thinks so is out to lunch.

 

[Balthazar]

If Roy really thought that Holden was one of his best dmen then I doubt that he'd have agreed to trade him for a 4th pick.

In fact, he probably didn't agree with that trade. At all.

 

[Bender]

And that article is exactly why Roy is out of a job. He can't evaluate talent. Period. Nick Holden is at best a 3rd pairing d-man probably best suited in 6th/7th d-man roll. I don't think there are too many scouts/professionals that would disagree with this assessment. Not to mention the advanced stats will back this evaluation.

When you have Roy saying things like Holden is one of my better d-man, there is a problem. At best last year he was the 4th best d-man on our team.

So glad Roy is no longer part of the organization. It sounds like he is just off his rocker. I'm glad Sakic is still around it seems like he can actually evaluate the state of the team and get rid of dead weight like Holden.

This is just further proof that Roy was probably behind most of the questionable decisions regarding personnel and contracts.

Agreed. While we'll never have the whole story and Sakic certainly needs to take his share of the blame...just because someone suggests something, doesn't mean to go along for the ride...there is a lot of evidence that indicates very, very curious decisions when it comes to Roy.

When we think back to the Downey for Talbot deal, we were all on a huge 'high' from the 14-2 start to really care that much about how that went down. Downey did have 7 pts in 11 gp when that happened but when the news surfaced that a whole bunch of other GMs didn't even know he was available, that was kind of a head scratcher. As it turned out, Talbot was at the end of the road and so was Downie but that's neither here nor there. The fact that the due dillligence wasn't done in this case was the problem.

As I keep saying over and over, if Roy's suggestions/decisions were GOOD there is no reason to gradually freeze him out.

If Roy really thought that Holden was one of his best dmen then I doubt that he'd have agreed to trade him for a 4th pick.

In fact, he probably didn't agree with that trade. At all.

Agreed. For me, THAT'S the issue. Roy didn't say anything that wasn't true. Holden was one of our best d-men on some nights last season. The fact that he apparently sees nothing wrong with that IS the problem. A large 90% of fans (if not more) on this board saw it as a problem and our GM/Management team saw it as a problem as well so they jettisoned him for whatever they could get.

Personally, the fact that Roy didn't agree with the Jost pick pissed me off, big time! It's almost as if he never seen him play, read the line that he was 5'11" and 190lbs and immediately disagreed. He's going to look foolish on that one, you can bank on it.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Holden was a #4 on this team. Part of the reason we have sucked the past few years. He is ideally a #6 or #7, but could pass as a #5 imo.

This sums it up for me real well. The key here is "#4 on this team". Well said.

 

[cgf]

This doesn't make him a good player or even an NHL caliber player. It was Roy(and Sakic's) fault he was one of the better defenders on a **** team. Signing and extending over the hill players, dumpster diving in the AHL for journeymen players and expecting to compete these are all failures on the FO...which includes Roy.

I'm not even sure what narrative some are suggesting here... the bottom line is do you guys think Roy was a good coach? After 3 seasons, anyone who thinks so is out to lunch.

I'm not pushing any narrative other than that the things Roy is said to have said in that article aren't anywhere near as ridiculous as the reactions in this thread would imply. Holden is a 4-6 depending on where his game is (he was a capable 4 to start last season and for significant chunks of the 2013-2014 season), and Holden was one of Roy's best defenders. That's all.

I'm not judging Roy's coaching ability, his ability to assess talent, or anything of the sort. Just found the reactions in here a little weird.