Coach Discussion: Coaching Thread

[Turin]

L


But seems like he loses the room lots. Maurice... U can bitch but the guy doesn't lose the room and hasn't in almost 8 seasons. Montreal ? Obviously there are bigger problems. Although rumors are he didn't like the up tempo style they played to start the year and is more comfy playing almost trap like hockey. Jets fans would hate him n

That’s not necessarily a good thing. Maurice is too close with his stars. Also Julien had the team first in 5 on 5 results with a meh roster.

 

[DRW204]

im just baffled how he's the 2nd longest tenured coach. so this org thinks maurice is 2nd best to cooper basically

we've seen coaches with superior success fired. yet first round KO maurice is still kickin around

Maurice probably has the most excuses made for him that I've ever seen for a coach lol. 20 seasons no cups, 7 seasons in Winnipeg, 2 playoff rounds won and yet people really want to argue there's no reason he should be fired and find an excuse for his lack of results. He's probably going to get another season at this rate as well because we have enough talent to make the playoffs in these modified divisions.

Sigh, I just want something new.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

That’s not necessarily a good thing. Maurice is too close with his stars. Also Julien had the team first in 5 on 5 results with a meh roster.

Always something. Seriously.

Who gives a shit about 5 on 5 results if you lose. Unsustainable.. that's what Montreal was and is.

 

[DRW204]

if 36 year old buff on evidently one ankle/foot was this team's saving grace, then jesus we are poorly built.

Are we forgetting the buff f***ing the team situation?

 

[Gabe Kupari]

if 36 year old buff on evidently one ankle/foot was this team's saving grace, then jesus we are poorly built.

Yeah... Losing your 1 RHD superstar b4 the season starts totally wouldn't effect the team.

 

[DRW204]

never said it wouldn't effect them

but if a season hinged on buff who's 36, playing on one leg, and told the team he was contemplating retirement, yea that's a failure on the org. it's moreso on Chevy than Maurice though.

team was ill-prepared. they held out hope that buff would change his mind and made 0 moves to mitigate if he ultimately retired.

Yeah... Losing your 1 RHD superstar b4 the season starts totally wouldn't effect the team.

 

[Weezeric]

never said it wouldn't effect them

but if a season hinged on buff who's 36, playing on one leg, and told the team he was contemplating retirement, yea that's a failure on the org. it's moreso on Chevy than Maurice though.

team was ill-prepared. they held out hope that buff would change his mind and made 0 moves to mitigate if he ultimately retired.

Didn’t Buff have 9 points in the 6 playoff games the Jets played before he retired? He was far from a broken player in decline.

He told the team he was thinking about retiring literally the day before training camp. How prepared could you be for that?

And he didn’t just retire. He kept the team in cap purgatory by how he and his agent handled matters. I can’t see how Chevy could’ve handled that any better.

 

[DRW204]

Didn’t Buff have 9 points in the 6 playoff games the Jets played before he retired? He was far from a broken player in decline.

He told the team he was thinking about retiring literally the day before training camp. How prepared could you be for that?

And he didn’t just retire. He kept the team in cap purgatory by how he and his agent handled matters. I can’t see how Chevy could’ve handled that any better.

from what i remember, he told the org during the summer that he was contemplating retirement. i believe chevy had a press conference saying they were in communication over the summer and told him to see how you feel at training camp. i just dont think they were unaware. if i'm wrong i apologize. there's onus on both sides imo.

at 36 buff was probably still a solid player, but given the ankle, age etc. idk how he would have fared over the rigors of an 82 game season. still clearly needed surgery on his ankle (hence him getting it done on his own). just question if putting all the eggs in the buff basket was a viable strategy, even if he played.

 

[Whileee]

never said it wouldn't effect them

but if a season hinged on buff who's 36, playing on one leg, and told the team he was contemplating retirement, yea that's a failure on the org. it's moreso on Chevy than Maurice though.

team was ill-prepared. they held out hope that buff would change his mind and made 0 moves to mitigate if he ultimately retired.

Jets also lost their #2 C (Little) for the entire 2019/20 season, and their #3 C (Lowry) for 20 games.

Overall, in 2019/20 the Jets quite easily had the highest injury loss in terms of player performance (lost an estimated 7.7 wins above replacement WAR). The next highest was Pittsburgh, with about 5.7 WAR lost via injury. I remain puzzled by the notion that team performance shouldn't be affected by significant injuries to key players. That's not different than saying that a team with worse players shouldn't be affected by not having good players on their roster.

I think you are making unsupported assumptions about what the Jets were doing vis-a-vis Buff. The fact of the matter is that Buff notified the Jets out of the blue that he wasn't ready or interested in starting the season. There was a dispute over his injury status that was the subject of discussions / disputes between the NHLPA and the NHL. The Jets weren't able to put him on LTIR, nor were they able to suspend him. He didn't want to be traded. As a result, the Jets did not even have the latitude to use his cap space until his situation was decided by the NHL / NHLPA.

 

[DRW204]

ill have to look back. but pretty sure Chevy's press conference he said he was aware that Buff was contemplating retirement during the summer and told him to come to TC and let him know.

sorry to say, but losing little was a blessing in disguise. Wheeler performed better at 2C than Little had done in the previous 2 years.

edit

nvm im wrong

“At the end of the playoffs the year prior, he played 25-plus minutes a night in the St. Louis series, and he was a force out there,” Cheveldayoff said. “We had no indications during the summer there was anything going on. We had regular contact with him and all our players, like we normally do.”

Jets also lost their #2 C (Little) for the entire 2019/20 season, and their #3 C (Lowry) for 20 games.

Overall, in 2019/20 the Jets quite easily had the highest injury loss in terms of player performance (lost an estimated 7.7 wins above replacement WAR). The next highest was Pittsburgh, with about 5.7 WAR lost via injury. I remain puzzled by the notion that team performance shouldn't be affected by significant injuries to key players. That's not different than saying that a team with worse players shouldn't be affected by not having good players on their roster.

I think you are making unsupported assumptions about what the Jets were doing vis-a-vis Buff. The fact of the matter is that Buff notified the Jets out of the blue that he wasn't ready or interested in starting the season. There was a dispute over his injury status that was the subject of discussions / disputes between the NHLPA and the NHL. The Jets weren't able to put him on LTIR, nor were they able to suspend him. He didn't want to be traded. As a result, the Jets did not even have the latitude to use his cap space until his situation was decided by the NHL / NHLPA.

 

[tbcwpg]

from what i remember, he told the org during the summer that he was contemplating retirement. i believe chevy had a press conference saying they were in communication over the summer and told him to see how you feel at training camp. i just dont think they were unaware. if i'm wrong i apologize. there's onus on both sides imo.

at 36 buff was probably still a solid player, but given the ankle, age etc. idk how he would have fared over the rigors of an 82 game season. still clearly needed surgery on his ankle (hence him getting it done on his own). just question if putting all the eggs in the buff basket was a viable strategy, even if he played.

I think they were unaware he was contemplating retirement until the day before camp. Even if your timeline is true, you still have to account for that cap space if he decides he does want to play. Little also went down during the last preseason game, and then again shortly after he came back. That's a top pairing D man and a 2C gone.

 

[DRW204]

I think they were unaware he was contemplating retirement until the day before camp. Even if your timeline is true, you still have to account for that cap space if he decides he does want to play. Little also went down during the last preseason game, and then again shortly after he came back. That's a top pairing D man and a 2C gone.

yea i was incorrect on the buff thing

idk, to me if little was still around we would CSW and ELL. 2 ineffective liens. it was a bit of a blessing in disguise unfortunately bc it got Wheeler at 2C and broke up CSW. and Wheeler performed better at C than Little.

 

[voyageur]

team made an expanded playoffs a field of 24. you cant predict the future, neither can i. no clue if they would have made a top 8 in the west. by pts% when the season finished they were 9th in the west and outside the POs. they were 20th in the entire league. they also didn't make it past the play-in into the playoffs.

nevertheless they have moved on from the first round once in 7 years. that's not good. they're trending to be the Minnesota Wild of PO teams, except with arguably superior roster to those Wild teams.

They had just made the playoffs in term of points on the night the NHL was shut down. So hard to say where we would have finished. To even be in contention took some coaching, and most hockey analysts were praising Maurice for his work, with no Buff, no Little, while on these boards, same old same old.

And again to point out it's once it 6 years. Unless you think we had a talented enough roster in 2013-2014 to go 22-8-5.

What did happen is the team came into camp in better condition, under Maurice's instruction, the following season, and did make the playoffs.

We definitely didn't have the talent to be a playoff team in 2015-2016, couldn't replace the Bryan Little injury, or the goaltending. So I'm not sure that's on the coach.
We didn't get the goaltending in 2016-2017 either.

So in a way Garret is right that goaltending and coaching success are tied in.

Has Maurice been outcoached in the playoffs? I think he has. I still think we win the St. Louis series if there wasn't some malcontents on the team, who gave substandard efforts.

Does he make some curious roster decisions? I think he does. But he's also got a pretty good pulse on the team, and he's got all his stars playing for him, which keeps you employed.

Would I like to see young players get maybe an easier road? I think he could work on that still.

Still, I'm not sure the grass is any greener. Maybe we'll end up with Randy Carlyle, he's won a Stanley Cup, and he's a True North guy.

And I think that hiring Dave Lowry helps a lot, because we have a coach that is respected, with his NHL background.

 

[ulf]

I not a believer that coaches win Stanley Cups. Nor do I think many if any of us knows more about their team and players then a coaching staff does. Systems are for teams with limited talent ....like the Trap was/is. Hard work wins, changing coaches is just a stop gap to finding better players. IMO

 

[Jets 31]

They had just made the playoffs in term of points on the night the NHL was shut down. So hard to say where we would have finished. To even be in contention took some coaching, and most hockey analysts were praising Maurice for his work, with no Buff, no Little, while on these boards, same old same old.

And again to point out it's once it 6 years. Unless you think we had a talented enough roster in 2013-2014 to go 22-8-5.

What did happen is the team came into camp in better condition, under Maurice's instruction, the following season, and did make the playoffs.

We definitely didn't have the talent to be a playoff team in 2015-2016, couldn't replace the Bryan Little injury, or the goaltending. So I'm not sure that's on the coach.
We didn't get the goaltending in 2016-2017 either.

So in a way Garret is right that goaltending and coaching success are tied in.

Has Maurice been outcoached in the playoffs? I think he has. I still think we win the St. Louis series if there wasn't some malcontents on the team, who gave substandard efforts.

Does he make some curious roster decisions? I think he does. But he's also got a pretty good pulse on the team, and he's got all his stars playing for him, which keeps you employed.

Would I like to see young players get maybe an easier road? I think he could work on that still.

Still, I'm not sure the grass is any greener. Maybe we'll end up with Randy Carlyle, he's won a Stanley Cup, and he's a True North guy.

And I think that hiring Dave Lowry helps a lot, because we have a coach that is respected, with his NHL background.

We lose both Scheifele and Laine in the first game of last years playins , Wheeler becomes our #1 center and Lowry #2 but Maurice is the reason we lost . People always say ya but he's never won a Cup , i don't think it would even matter if he had , people would just come up with something else.

 

[JetsUK]

They had just made the playoffs in term of points on the night the NHL was shut down. So hard to say where we would have finished. To even be in contention took some coaching, and most hockey analysts were praising Maurice for his work, with no Buff, no Little, while on these boards, same old same old.

And again to point out it's once it 6 years. Unless you think we had a talented enough roster in 2013-2014 to go 22-8-5.

What did happen is the team came into camp in better condition, under Maurice's instruction, the following season, and did make the playoffs.

We definitely didn't have the talent to be a playoff team in 2015-2016, couldn't replace the Bryan Little injury, or the goaltending. So I'm not sure that's on the coach.
We didn't get the goaltending in 2016-2017 either.

So in a way Garret is right that goaltending and coaching success are tied in.

Has Maurice been outcoached in the playoffs? I think he has. I still think we win the St. Louis series if there wasn't some malcontents on the team, who gave substandard efforts.

Does he make some curious roster decisions? I think he does. But he's also got a pretty good pulse on the team, and he's got all his stars playing for him, which keeps you employed.

Would I like to see young players get maybe an easier road? I think he could work on that still.

Still, I'm not sure the grass is any greener. Maybe we'll end up with Randy Carlyle, he's won a Stanley Cup, and he's a True North guy.

And I think that hiring Dave Lowry helps a lot, because we have a coach that is respected, with his NHL background.

Thanks for this detailed and well-argued reply.

So, if I'm reading you correctly, your position is that there's lots to like about PoMo's stewardship of the Jets and a few things to question. So here's my question: what would it take take to convince you that a new coach is needed?

- No POs this year or early exit (but Covid craziness)
- No POs next year (possible Covid/XD craziness)
- No PO's in 22-23 (core starting to age out of their prime/ contracts)

I guess my ongoing concern is that success in NHL hockey is fragile and a hostage to fortune -- there will almost always be mitigating circumstances to explain a lack of success -- contracts, injuries, schedule, goaltending blip, other teams' hitting dynastic heights, etc). So at what point do you say enough already and look for a new coach to take you over the top? Or is it enough that the current coach has the room, doesn't get involved in distraction or litigation, has the team playing decently enough to be in the running for a PO spot? I mean, we could be here 3-5 years from now having the same discussion -- or, of course, celebrating a Cup win under PM or some other coach.

 

[Peggy]

Is Claude Julien better than Maurice?

 

[Peggy]

They had just made the playoffs in term of points on the night the NHL was shut down. So hard to say where we would have finished. To even be in contention took some coaching, and most hockey analysts were praising Maurice for his work, with no Buff, no Little, while on these boards, same old same old.

And again to point out it's once it 6 years. Unless you think we had a talented enough roster in 2013-2014 to go 22-8-5.

What did happen is the team came into camp in better condition, under Maurice's instruction, the following season, and did make the playoffs.

We definitely didn't have the talent to be a playoff team in 2015-2016, couldn't replace the Bryan Little injury, or the goaltending. So I'm not sure that's on the coach.
We didn't get the goaltending in 2016-2017 either.

So in a way Garret is right that goaltending and coaching success are tied in.

Has Maurice been outcoached in the playoffs? I think he has. I still think we win the St. Louis series if there wasn't some malcontents on the team, who gave substandard efforts.

Does he make some curious roster decisions? I think he does. But he's also got a pretty good pulse on the team, and he's got all his stars playing for him, which keeps you employed.

Would I like to see young players get maybe an easier road? I think he could work on that still.

Still, I'm not sure the grass is any greener. Maybe we'll end up with Randy Carlyle, he's won a Stanley Cup, and he's a True North guy.

And I think that hiring Dave Lowry helps a lot, because we have a coach that is respected, with his NHL background.

Helle carried the Jets last year. 9 shut outs? Thanks to Maurice?

 

[sipowicz]

Didn’t Buff have 9 points in the 6 playoff games the Jets played before he retired? He was far from a broken player in decline.

He told the team he was thinking about retiring literally the day before training camp. How prepared could you be for that?

And he didn’t just retire. He kept the team in cap purgatory by how he and his agent handled matters. I can’t see how Chevy could’ve handled that any better.

Not only did Buff quit on the team he screwed the team royally on the way out, I for one lost all respect for the guy after that move!

Pretty tough to fault Mo’s coaching this season, after an extended layoff anyone with a lick of sense knew both Samberg and Heinola would need seasoning in the AHL and for the guys that thought Perfetti would jump right in to the Jets lineup, seriously? Niku’s play kinda proved what Mo and the Jets coaching staff knew all along, only fault with Maurice this year is Thompson in over either Harkins or Versa-Lainen

 

[Peggy]

Not only did Buff quit on the team he screwed the team royally on the way out, I for one lost all respect for the guy after that move!

Yeah it's too bad. Because I started appreciating him more on the team. Really was a a game changer with his physical force

 

[Jets 31]

Not only did Buff quit on the team he screwed the team royally on the way out, I for one lost all respect for the guy after that move!

Pretty tough to fault Mo’s coaching this season, after an extended layoff anyone with a lick of sense knew both Samberg and Heinola would need seasoning in the AHL and for the guys that thought Perfetti would jump right in to the Jets lineup, seriously? Niku’s play kinda proved what Mo and the Jets coaching staff knew all along, only fault with Maurice this year is Thompson in over either Harkins or Versa-Lainen

Jesus, Sip is going soft. Agree with everything and Buff really left us screwed, Buff was my favorite Jet and i guess he didn't want to play anymore and that's fine, i just wish he would have done it differently.

 

[Eyeseeing]

And yet both WPG goalies are doing well, but there's some pitchforks out for the coach...

Thank goodness the goalies ARE doing well.

 

[Highway1]

Jesus, Sip is going soft. Agree with everything and Buff really left us screwed, Buff was my favorite Jet and i guess he didn't want to play anymore and that's fine, i just wish he would have done it differently.

Maybe Sip’s wife tapped into his account and posted this.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

The PK is so underrated in these parts.

If you follow the momentum of the Canucks game, we tie the game on a goal by Scheifele. Two shifts later we're in the box on the Forbort penalty. 2-2, midway 3rd period. Beaulieu has about a 1:30 minute shift on the PK because the puck can't get deep enough to change d-men though we get another zone clear to change forwards, after the initial clear by Beaulieu. We kill off the penalty, and draw one on the next shift after. Which leads to a 3-2 goal. Jets lead. Canucks score on that sequence and we're chasing the game. Now the question is could Samberg play that 1:30 minutes? Is he ready for Pettersson, Mc David, Matthews on the PK. Because that's the end game, the spot he has to fill when a 1st unit defender goes down. On the road could be a full 2 minute shift in the long change 2nd. But with the game on the line, do you think Samberg is ready for that? I'd be easing him pretty slowly. Poolman hasn't been a PK factor yet this year, for whatever reason, injury or coaching, but that seems like the way to get him in the lineup. Sooner or later.

To get Heinola in the lineup, we are either going to need Poolman to take Beaulieu's spot, and one of Pionk or Morrissey to be consistent on the PK this year. Worst metrics for d are Morrissey, who looks afraid to block shots. Other option is 7 d-men, as I think you could make a pretty good argument that Heinola would deliver a bigger impact in a 7 d situation that Thompson/Harkins would in a 12 forward alignment.

But the whole vet favoritism seems overblown, given that Vesalainen, Gustafsson, Stanley and Heinola have all got to play so far this year. If anything we've been constricted by the Forsberg roster space, and dancing around the Cap, with Little LTIR factoring, early, but managed to get quite a few games in for young players. All the vets have been solid, except Beaulieu 5 on 5 has been marginal, so far. But he's filled his role on the team. . Which is a factor in our winning record. Thompson hasn't allowed a goal against 5 on 5, but hasn't been great, admittedly, and lost his PK role to Apples, conceivably for good.

You are right to emphasize special teams, but how much ST success is on personnel and how much is on systems/coaching? Especially the PK. PK requires sacrifice but it isn't a high skill role. How long does it take to learn?

 

[surixon]

You are right to emphasize special teams, but how much ST success is on personnel and how much is on systems/coaching? Especially the PK. PK requires sacrifice but it isn't a high skill role. How long does it take to learn?

Not long especially Moe's passive box.