Coach Discussion: Coaching Thread 3

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ecolad

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Given that we now look to have a very good D core to go with our high end forwards and Vezina goalie I think we can discuss what our coaching staff should be looking to do.

We should have a dcore that can transition well and support the rush. Three of them should be able to jump up into the play and work in a offensive 5 man rotation in the offensive end.

Given the team there should be no excuse for Maurice to trot out the same old basic and restrictive systems he has used the last two years.

I want to continue to see the zone hybrid with strong side overload in our end this year that we saw against Edmonton last year. We should be able to exploit the quick turnover and quick strike transition that the system creates at a higher rate with this dcore.

Offensively there should be no reason to continue with a very cautious down low 3 man cycle. We need merge our transition dominance with the hard 2-1-2 forecheck we used in 17-18. Once in the offensive end there should be no reason not to incorporate all 5 players into our attacks especially when we have either of the top two pairings on the ice.

Come on Maurice prove me wrong this year and incorporate something robust and modern.

Great post. If we don't see changes in the basic strategic/tactical thinking behind our system play, we will probably acheive only very modest improvement in team efficiency, in spite of our upgraded D.

Of all the points you make,I am most skeptical that we will ever see a planned, organized 5 man approach to generating offence, with our D activating in some fashion. We have never seen this type of approach by Maurice , even in our glory years of 2017/18 and parts of 2018/19, and have always set up a 3 man cycle down low and stationed our D near the blueline to generate typical point-shots. It is my view that DuBois is having a difficult time fitting into this style of play, and that Schmidt will also feel uncomfortable with it - but this is something the coaches will have to figure out and hopefully address.
 

surixon

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Great post. If we don't see changes in the basic strategic/tactical thinking behind our system play, we will probably acheive only very modest improvement in team efficiency, in spite of our upgraded D.

Of all the points you make,I am most skeptical that we will ever see a planned, organized 5 man approach to generating offence, with our D activating in some fashion. We have never seen this type of approach by Maurice , even in our glory years of 2017/18 and parts of 2018/19, and have always set up a 3 man cycle down low and stationed our D near the blueline to generate typical point-shots. It is my view that DuBois is having a difficult time fitting into this style of play, and that Schmidt will also feel uncomfortable with it - but this is something the coaches will have to figure out and hopefully address.

Yeah I'm skeptical as well about the offensive zone systems but not a lot of teams were really doing a whole lot of those 5 man rotations back then if I remember correctly. Tampa just one b2b cups doing it and a good many other teams use it now. I hope that maybe our coach has been paying attention or someone on the staff has been and brings it up.

I'm juat pretty skeptical on him accross the board, think in many ways the modern tactics are beyond him.
 

Neuf

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Make the call before Thanksgiving is the season isn't going well. Roster looks good
 

JetsUK

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Great post. If we don't see changes in the basic strategic/tactical thinking behind our system play, we will probably acheive only very modest improvement in team efficiency, in spite of our upgraded D.

Of all the points you make,I am most skeptical that we will ever see a planned, organized 5 man approach to generating offence, with our D activating in some fashion. We have never seen this type of approach by Maurice , even in our glory years of 2017/18 and parts of 2018/19, and have always set up a 3 man cycle down low and stationed our D near the blueline to generate typical point-shots. It is my view that DuBois is having a difficult time fitting into this style of play, and that Schmidt will also feel uncomfortable with it - but this is something the coaches will have to figure out and hopefully address.

Excellent post and I agree.

I wonder whether, given his outspokenness at times last year, and the respect he commands in the room, whether Stats isn't partly here as a nudge from Chevy towards that more modern, workable system that is optimized for the players we actually have.

I tend to believe that in our best years we had the talent and strength in the room to outplay our coaching. Maybe we can catch that lightning in a bottle again, because I've seen no evidence that Mo has the technical nous to get us past the best of the best, and this year, of course, he's coaching for his next contract(s). Not sure that it's a question of personnel at this point.
 

surixon

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Excellent post and I agree.

I wonder whether, given his outspokenness at times last year, and the respect he commands in the room, whether Stats isn't partly here as a nudge from Chevy towards that more modern, workable system that is optimized for the players we actually have.

I tend to believe that in our best years we had the talent and strength in the room to outplay our coaching. Maybe we can catch that lightning in a bottle again, because I've seen no evidence that Mo has the technical nous to get us past the best of the best, and this year, of course, he's coaching for his next contract(s). Not sure that it's a question of personnel at this point.

I've long sense believed Moe needed to be augmented by real strong technical/tactical assistants to run the team schemes. I think Lowry pretty much singal handedly modernized our static PK and made it good. We need to see that across all systems next season.

Let Moe continue to do what he's good at and that is manage relationships with the players and set the overall tone.
 

JetsUK

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I've long sense believed Moe needed to be augmented by real strong technical/tactical assistants to run the team schemes. I think Lowry pretty much singal handedly modernized our static PK and made it good. We need to see that across all systems next season.

Let Moe continue to do what he's good at and that is manage relationships with the players and set the overall tone.

Absolutely. I think we agree on that and it's something I've been thinking about for a while -- more of a Euro football setup, rather than the older-style capo dei capo model. A more atomized, specialized staff that brings more strengths to the table while preserving an overall decision maker might be the future, IMO.
 

surixon

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Absolutely. I think we agree on that and it's something I've been thinking about for a while -- more of a Euro football setup, rather than the older-style capo dei capo model. A more atomized, specialized staff that brings more strengths to the table while preserving an overall decision maker might be the future, IMO.

Yup, I don't know if people follow the Canadian national soccer team. But I'd peg Herdman a real positive motivator and relationship builder like Maurice but he doesn't have a lot of tactical acumen so he brought in a tonne of different assistants from all over and he has changed his schemes and tactics since they came in.

He's been instrumental in getting the players to commit and buy in but his assistants do most of the tactical work.

The result is a Canadian National team that looks poised to qualify for their first world cup nearly 40 years.

Just like with the players coaches should be used in areas they are strongest in and specialists should be brought in to fill in any gaps.
 

Al Camino

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Not sure if this is an honest question or just wishful thinking. But after 20 games or so if the Jets are still analitically trash, giving up huge amounts of shots and high danger chances and carried by goaltending, do Maurice and Huddy still have jobs?
 

surixon

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Not sure if this is an honest question or just wishful thinking. But after 20 games or so if the Jets are still analitically trash, giving up huge amounts of shots and high danger chances and carried by goaltending, do Maurice and Huddy still have jobs?

Chevy has an out after next season as the club has a one year option on Maurices last year. I would think with these moves if the team really struggles out of the gate he's gone.
 

snowkiddin

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I've long sense believed Moe needed to be augmented by real strong technical/tactical assistants to run the team schemes. I think Lowry pretty much singal handedly modernized our static PK and made it good. We need to see that across all systems next season.

Let Moe continue to do what he's good at and that is manage relationships with the players and set the overall tone.
Saw all the coaching chatter in the Schmidt thread but didn't want to derail that further, and I think this is a pretty good leaping off point to continue to the discussion.

I agree with you about Maurice being good at managing relationships and setting an overall tone. He seems like a great guy and the players like him. That's great, and it's important for the Jets/True North to have a guy like that in the locker room. Winnipeg isn't as warm as Arizona, or Florida, or Tampa; we can't offer the nightlife of Vegas or Los Angeles; we don't have the endorsements that Toronto and New York benefit from; we have high taxes here; we are a small, frozen abyss in the middle of nowhere (by NHL standards) - there is a lot of things to scare players away. Vegas are being complete clowns with how they treat their players, but IMO, they can stand to get away with it more than we can just based solely on location. Winnipeg isn't terrible; no, rather, I like it here. But it would be a tough sell for some players. What I'm getting at here is a long-winded way of saying True North needs to offer something else, and Maurice is part of that. We don't have palm trees and hot girls in bikinis everywhere, but we can offer loyalty, and a players' coach.

I can also respect the opinion that we shouldn't criticize lineup decisions if we don't know the full story and the ins and outs. With all due respect, I think it's hard to justify Beaulieu on the top pairing unless he has blackmail material on Maurice, but I can try to stymie my critiques on roster and lineup decisions because I don't know the full story.

I also think our systems have been generally shit for a few years now, but perhaps that's due to the lack of talent we've been deploying on the back end. We've also seen instances of the team folding under adversity (St. Louis Game 6, Calgary series, Montreal series). But is that Maurice? Or is it a symptom of something bigger? I'm not sure.

I like the room we have. We seem to be in a much better place than we were a year ago. And the talent is coming. With Dillon and Schmidt in this year, the Jets have a good defensive core. The pressure is on Maurice now to perform with it. He's had a long leash here, and eventually, you need to win it all.

In Bomberland, O'Shea is the same way. He is a players' coach, guys WANT to play for him. He's been a big part of the appeal of us being able to bring in all these top CFL free agents in recent years (Harris wanted to come home, but even excluding him you've got guys like Medlock, Bryant, Adams, Bighill, Jefferson, etc.) The Bombers had looked like they were dragging their feet in the mud for a couple of seasons there (continuous disappointing playoff losses) but they stuck with O'Shea and it ultimately paid off. If the Jets are sticking with Maurice, all we can do is hope for the same.
 

surixon

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Saw all the coaching chatter in the Schmidt thread but didn't want to derail that further, and I think this is a pretty good leaping off point to continue to the discussion.

I agree with you about Maurice being good at managing relationships and setting an overall tone. He seems like a great guy and the players like him. That's great, and it's important for the Jets/True North to have a guy like that in the locker room. Winnipeg isn't as warm as Arizona, or Florida, or Tampa; we can't offer the nightlife of Vegas or Los Angeles; we don't have the endorsements that Toronto and New York benefit from; we have high taxes here; we are a small, frozen abyss in the middle of nowhere (by NHL standards) - there is a lot of things to scare players away. Vegas are being complete clowns with how they treat their players, but IMO, they can stand to get away with it more than we can just based solely on location. Winnipeg isn't terrible; no, rather, I like it here. But it would be a tough sell for some players. What I'm getting at here is a long-winded way of saying True North needs to offer something else, and Maurice is part of that. We don't have palm trees and hot girls in bikinis everywhere, but we can offer loyalty, and a players' coach.

I can also respect the opinion that we shouldn't criticize lineup decisions if we don't know the full story and the ins and outs. With all due respect, I think it's hard to justify Beaulieu on the top pairing unless he has blackmail material on Maurice, but I can try to stymie my critiques on roster and lineup decisions because I don't know the full story.

I also think our systems have been generally shit for a few years now, but perhaps that's due to the lack of talent we've been deploying on the back end. We've also seen instances of the team folding under adversity (St. Louis Game 6, Calgary series, Montreal series). But is that Maurice? Or is it a symptom of something bigger? I'm not sure.

I like the room we have. We seem to be in a much better place than we were a year ago. And the talent is coming. With Dillon and Schmidt in this year, the Jets have a good defensive core. The pressure is on Maurice now to perform with it. He's had a long leash here, and eventually, you need to win it all.

In Bomberland, O'Shea is the same way. He is a players' coach, guys WANT to play for him. He's been a big part of the appeal of us being able to bring in all these top CFL free agents in recent years (Harris wanted to come home, but even excluding him you've got guys like Medlock, Bryant, Adams, Bighill, Jefferson, etc.) The Bombers had looked like they were dragging their feet in the mud for a couple of seasons there (continuous disappointing playoff losses) but they stuck with O'Shea and it ultimately paid off. If the Jets are sticking with Maurice, all we can do is hope for the same.

Good post. The Bomber point just emphasizes my point. Oshea and the Bombers didn't go anywhere until he brought in a very strong tactical mind in LaPo to completely revamp the offense.

I think professional coaching these days is such a demanding field that it isn't practical to expect the head coach to be an expert in all areas and take point on all areas. You need your assistants to be subject matter experts in areas that the head coach isn't as proficient in. LaPo did that for Oshea and the Bombers broke through because of it. Lowry seems to have made that type of impact on our PK by incorporating a much more aggressive scheme. I hope Lowry also takes the reigns on our defensive zone schemes as I think he may have been behind the zone hybrid/overload scheme we ran against Edmonton.

Now we need someone maybe that is a Kompton to be given autonomy on our offe site schemes and systems.

I like Maurice when it comes to certain areas but he isn't a very good tactical mind imo and he should do what Chevy does with the scouts. He should tell his assistants the high macro type of game he wants the team to ay and allow his assistants to derive and implement the micro aspects of the system.
 

snowkiddin

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Good post. The Bomber point just emphasizes my point. Oshea and the Bombers didn't go anywhere until he brought in a very strong tactical mind in LaPo to completely revamp the offense.

I think professional coaching these days is such a demanding field that it isn't practical to expect the head coach to be an expert in all areas and take point on all areas. You need your assistants to be subject matter experts in areas that the head coach isn't as proficient in. LaPo did that for Oshea and the Bombers broke through because of it. Lowry seems to have made that type of impact on our PK by incorporating a much more aggressive scheme. I hope Lowry also takes the reigns on our defensive zone schemes as I think he may have been behind the zone hybrid/overload scheme we ran against Edmonton.

Now we need someone maybe that is a Kompton to be given autonomy on our offe site schemes and systems.

I like Maurice when it comes to certain areas but he isn't a very good tactical mind imo and he should do what Chevy does with the scouts. He should tell his assistants the high macro type of game he wants the team to ay and allow his assistants to derive and implement the micro aspects of the system.
I agree completely. This will be an interesting year. It's a big one for Maurice. We have the talent there now. If the team disappoints, is it possible we see Maurice and the Jets amicably part ways at the end of his contract? I would bet against it, but it will be fun to watch it all unfold.
 

DRW204

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this roster on paper is probably the 3rd best maurice has ever had.

the D group looks good right now - morrissey obviously needs to bounce back and show some semblance of the 16-18 seasons. but the depth is soooooo much better.

Helle gonna play 70+ games though? :laugh:.

love the schmidt acquisition, just curious to see how it plays out. i don't know if he's the best partner for Morrissey, and although he is LH that plays RD - i wouldn't mind seeing a Schmidt-Demelo pairing tbh.

but seriously, chevy did well this off-season after a couple of underwhelming years. perhaps he got a kick in the pants from Chipman? Who knows.

still think we need another top-9 fwd, and i wonder who will be the 2c b/w Stastny and PLD.
 
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leer2006

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Good post. The Bomber point just emphasizes my point. Oshea and the Bombers didn't go anywhere until he brought in a very strong tactical mind in LaPo to completely revamp the offense.

I think professional coaching these days is such a demanding field that it isn't practical to expect the head coach to be an expert in all areas and take point on all areas. You need your assistants to be subject matter experts in areas that the head coach isn't as proficient in. LaPo did that for Oshea and the Bombers broke through because of it. Lowry seems to have made that type of impact on our PK by incorporating a much more aggressive scheme. I hope Lowry also takes the reigns on our defensive zone schemes as I think he may have been behind the zone hybrid/overload scheme we ran against Edmonton.

Now we need someone maybe that is a Kompton to be given autonomy on our offe site schemes and systems.

I like Maurice when it comes to certain areas but he isn't a very good tactical mind imo and he should do what Chevy does with the scouts. He should tell his assistants the high macro type of game he wants the team to ay and allow his assistants to derive and implement the micro aspects of the system.
The only problem with comparing O’Shea to PoMo. Is O’Shea was learning the ropes of what it takes to be a head coach and what it takes to win.
PoMo is a 20+ year head coaching vet who has never won and seems to repeat the same mistakes multiple times with different teams .
I just don’t see him getting it done. Hope I’m wrong. But his track record says otherwise.
 

snowkiddin

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The only problem with comparing O’Shea to PoMo. Is O’Shea was learning the ropes of what it takes to be a head coach and what it takes to win.
PoMo is a 20+ year head coaching vet who has never won and seems to repeat the same mistakes multiple times with different teams .
I just don’t see him getting it done. Hope I’m wrong. But his track record says otherwise.
Cute dog.
 
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JetsUK

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I have promised myself that, following The @ps241 Method, I'll stay away from the coaching threads this year and be much happier for it.

I agree (as per this very thread) that adding a capable tactician to the coaching squad and relieving PoMo of that particular duty would be ideal -- as, frankly, would adding a roster specialist -- but not sure we see that happen unless Dave Lowry has more strings to his bow.

So, hoping for the best, and that we see the best aspects of this squad (us against the world, camaraderie, no "I" in team, etc.) start to carry the day with respect to their play style and produce a dominant season in the 2017-18 vein. If we see another lacklustre kickoff that becomes a lacklustre season, I hope we see a coaching staff. This team has the talent up front and, at last, at the back to limp into the playoffs. We should, at least, be dark horse contenders who are scary as hell to play against, can beat any team on any night, and are resilient from game to game.

Pack of Wolves -- Activate!
 
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Gm0ney

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Given that we now look to have a very good D core to go with our high end forwards and Vezina goalie I think we can discuss what our coaching staff should be looking to do.

We should have a dcore that can transition well and support the rush. Three of them should be able to jump up into the play and work in a offensive 5 man rotation in the offensive end.

Given the team there should be no excuse for Maurice to trot out the same old basic and restrictive systems he has used the last two years.

I want to continue to see the zone hybrid with strong side overload in our end this year that we saw against Edmonton last year. We should be able to exploit the quick turnover and quick strike transition that the system creates at a higher rate with this dcore.

Offensively there should be no reason to continue with a very cautious down low 3 man cycle. We need merge our transition dominance with the hard 2-1-2 forecheck we used in 17-18. Once in the offensive end there should be no reason not to incorporate all 5 players into our attacks especially when we have either of the top two pairings on the ice.

Come on Maurice prove me wrong this year and incorporate something robust and modern.
We had a very good D core in 2018-19 (Buff, Trouba, Morrissey, Myers, Kulikov, Chiarot) and our Vezina goalie and the team still stunk.

Maurice should've been gone after that year...

upload_2021-8-4_17-44-53.png
 

Imcanadianeh

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We had a very good D core in 2018-19 (Buff, Trouba, Morrissey, Myers, Kulikov, Chiarot) and our Vezina goalie and the team still stunk.

Maurice should've been gone after that year...

View attachment 459401
To base an entire season on xGF% is kind of laughable to be honest.

if memory serves me correct the Jets actually had pretty decent stats that season until Buff, Morrissy and Ehlers got injured.

Hellebuyck also wasn’t even close to having a Vezina quality season.

even with an average season from Hellebuyck and many injuries the Jets ended up with a +27 goal differential on the season, the 6th most win in the NHL and the 10th most points.
 

Gm0ney

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I've long sense believed Moe needed to be augmented by real strong technical/tactical assistants to run the team schemes. I think Lowry pretty much singal handedly modernized our static PK and made it good. We need to see that across all systems next season.

Let Moe continue to do what he's good at and that is manage relationships with the players and set the overall tone.
The Jets had a bottom 5 penalty kill last year in pretty much every shot metric. Compared to the year before, the Jets xGA/60 actually got a bit worse in 2020-21 (7.28 in 2019-20 vs 7.43 in 20-21). So maybe we better hold off on the Lowry statue planning committee meetings for a bit... ;)
 

Gm0ney

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To base an entire season on xGF% is kind of laughable to be honest.

if memory serves me correct the Jets actually had pretty decent stats that season until Buff, Morrissy and Ehlers got injured.

Hellebuyck also wasn’t even close to having a Vezina quality season.
I'm not sure if it's more laughable to evaluate the team's performance by looking at a large sample of actual data from the games, or to base it all off your fond reminiscences from events that took place nigh on 3 years ago...I mean, human memory is notoriously accurate, so it's a tough call. :sarcasm:
 

Imcanadianeh

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I'm not sure if it's more laughable to evaluate the team's performance by looking at a large sample of actual data from the games, or to base it all off your fond reminiscences from events that took place nigh on 3 years ago...I mean, human memory is notoriously accurate, so it's a tough call. :sarcasm:
Hey if you prefer to use the Chayka method for evaluating an entire season who am I to say it’s wrong, clearly it worked out great for Arizona, not to mention the amazing success Florida had when they tried it.

because my memory is so bad I looked it up and the first 4ish months on the 18-19 season the Jets had a 49.79 xGF%
 
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tbcwpg

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Not sure if this is an honest question or just wishful thinking. But after 20 games or so if the Jets are still analitically trash, giving up huge amounts of shots and high danger chances and carried by goaltending, do Maurice and Huddy still have jobs?

The record will always outweigh any analytics when it comes to any GM and coach's job security.
 
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