Coach Discussion: Coaching (Mod warning OP)

[Whileee]

For all the angst about Lowry's usage, he's been a net positive player over the past 4 seasons, with fairly heavy / tough usage. He has consistently out-played his opposition at even-strength, which is basically what you want your forwards to do.

Over the past 4 seasons, Lowry's xGAR/60 is in the top 100 of NHL forwards. He's in pretty good company, too.

 

[surixon]

For all the angst about Lowry's usage, he's been a net positive player over the past 4 seasons, with fairly heavy / tough usage. He has consistently out-played his opposition at even-strength, which is basically what you want your forwards to do.

Over the past 4 seasons, Lowry's xGAR/60 is in the top 100 of NHL forwards. He's in pretty good company, too.

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The problem is that he doesn't produce. He prevents very well especially with Copp but they provide below average scoring and imo you need depth scoring to win in this league.

Let Lowry do what he does on the fourth line and get Copp centering more of a two-way third line. It gives us two quality bottom 6 C's

 

[Whileee]

Getting rid of Lowry would force Mau's hand on the bottom 6, at least to some extent.

It would force him to find another C that has been pretty consistent at out-shooting, out-chancing and out-scoring his opponents, despite top competition. That's sort of what you want from a bottom-6 C, isn't it?

 

[Whileee]

The problem is that he doesn't produce. He prevents very well especially with Copp but they provide below average scoring and imo you need depth scoring to win in this league.

He doesn't produce, but he allows even less production from his competition (which is usually top-level). I'm fine with lower production if his line out-scores the opposition. Having a 3rd line that can face top-6 competition and out-score and out-shoot them, that's a good formula.

 

[surixon]

He doesn't produce, but he allows even less production from his competition (which is usually top-level). I'm fine with lower production if his line out-scores the opposition. Having a 3rd line that can face top-6 competition and out-score and out-shoot them, that's a good formula.

The other problem is that his effectivness has declined since his high water mark in 17-18. He was god awful at preventing last year, not that he was the only one mind you. I just am not sure he is a long term fit there given his style of play. I think Copp is the player who has been doing most of the heavy lifting myself.

 

[Whileee]

If Lowry can reprise his performance of 2016/17 through 2018/19, it's hard not to like what he brings. The Jets have plenty of scoring firepower, so they don't need Lowry's line to score if he's shutting down and out-scoring high-end opposition.

 

[Whileee]

Nice stretch there...

 

[KingBogo]

If the Jets carry an expanded roster to start the year, and that seems likely with bubble talk, then you want some extra reserves, when players are quarantined. You'd probably have 11 d-men, maybe 12 on 31 player roster.

Right now I think Samberg would be in the 5-9 range, and probably get playing time, with practice time. Remember Maurice is a practice first kind of coach when promoting young players.

It's Chisholm who will be in no man's land. He wouldn't start playing until there is an AHL season.
In terms of depth Kovacevic, Stanley, and Nogier would all be ahead of him, having experience playing for Maurice/Vincent. The Jets could afford to leave Gawanke in Europe if there is no AHL, having Niku for the same role.

To the bolded. Samberg will have the same practice time as every other player on the team as he will be in camp. It isn't like he is joining the team mid season.

 

[voyageur]

To the bolded. Samberg will have the same practice time as every other player on the team as he will be in camp. It isn't like he is joining the team mid season.

However I think there's only 2 prospects that could come to camp who have never practiced under Maurice: Samberg and Perfetti. Edit: Chisholm as well if he is invited. Guaranteed training camps will be shorter this year. From all accounts the Jets run a fairly complicated defensive system, so it will be up to Samberg to process it. I have no doubt he'll play, I would be a little surprised if it's on opening day, but he should get a chance to make an impression in preseason, like Perfetti.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think superstars are a whole different story. Laine got plenty of ice time last year. Copp was playing top 6. Neither ran away with the responsibilities they were given. Roslovic was unhappy about 4th line roles, he was in the top 9 all year, got PP2 time, didn't hear any complaints at all.

If the only players who moved up required a checking game, Perreault would never be in the top 9. His checking game is gone. We'd have had guys like Lipon and Suess in 4th line roles, instead of Roslovic, Petan, Dano. Right now the struggle is to find effective PKers beyond Copp, Lowry and Appleton, that's more of an issue than people want to talk about, as our skilled guys have not been very good at it. Wheeler and Connor at least produced goals to somewhat counteract their high goals against.

I think Lowry is by far the most underrated player on these boards because of advanced stats. The quality of matchups he takes and the difference he makes, while not on the scoresheet, is lost in translation. Being a prairie boy, with his dad coaching in Brandon, I'd say there is a good chance he re-signs, while Copp moves on to a place where he gets a better paycheque. Gustafsson will be allowed time to grow into a pro.

Perreault started in the top 9 in a scoring role, moved up to the top 6. But as soon as we acquired KC and Ehlers, he got moved back to the bottom 6 - in a checking role. This site has been nothing but whining about him since. Good player, in a scoring role. Not good in a checking role, but that is what he is being required to play. He could be the poster boy in favour of my point. Totally miscast.

We'd have been better off with Lipon at 4RW than with some of the other guys who have been there.

Lowry is not underrated here at all. If anything he is the most overrated, because of grit. He scored 4 goals in 49 games last year on the 3rd line. That is not an advanced stat. That is a 4th liner stat.

If Lowry re-signs, it is probably for both too much money and too much term. Otherwise he will probably go to UFA. If he signs the right contract, I would be very happy to have him extended. But I would also be very happy to trade him for a good return too.

 

[HannuJ]

The problem is that he doesn't produce. He prevents very well especially with Copp but they provide below average scoring and imo you need depth scoring to win in this league.

Let Lowry do what he does on the fourth line and get Copp centering more of a two-way third line. It gives us two quality bottom 6 C's

would Roslo fit on that line? gives you a scoring option, in theory

 

[surixon]

would Roslo fit on that line? gives you a scoring option, in theory

They didn't really produce much last year when played together.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

It would force him to find another C that has been pretty consistent at out-shooting, out-chancing and out-scoring his opponents, despite top competition. That's sort of what you want from a bottom-6 C, isn't it?

Copp.

Out scoring matchups is what you want from everybody.

I want to see a different approach. I think what we have been doing is counterproductive - despite certain players winning matchups. It has us in a rut with the 5 minute 4th line as a symptom.

 

[Whileee]

Copp.

Out scoring matchups is what you want from everybody.

I want to see a different approach. I think what we have been doing is counterproductive - despite certain players winning matchups. It has us in a rut with the 5 minute 4th line as a symptom.

I can't see a reason not to play a 3rd line that consistently out-plays and out-scores top match-ups. The Jets' major problems in the past couple of years have been their top 2 lines.

The problem with the 4th line is that it hasn't been very good.

 

[KingBogo]

However I think there's only 2 prospects that could come to camp who have never practiced under Maurice: Samberg and Perfetti. Edit: Chisholm as well if he is invited. Guaranteed training camps will be shorter this year. From all accounts the Jets run a fairly complicated defensive system, so it will be up to Samberg to process it. I have no doubt he'll play, I would be a little surprised if it's on opening day, but he should get a chance to make an impression in preseason, like Perfetti.

I'd be very surprised if he wasn't on the opening day roster. 3 seasons at a top school in the NCAA is a far different thing then coming out of CHL, you add to that how badly our defense needs an upgrade of a big bodied defenseman who plays a defense first game.

 

[voyageur]

I'd be very surprised if he wasn't on the opening day roster. 3 seasons at a top school in the NCAA is a far different thing then coming out of CHL, you add to that how badly our defense needs an upgrade of a big bodied defenseman who plays a defense first game.

Lots of reason to be optimistic. Training with Pionk will at least prepare him for what he needs to learn. It's quite possible that the Jets are going to look at Samberg and Forbort as the upsized defenseman to play with Pionk, and have Beaulieu, Poolman, Sbisa as the bottom pairing soldiers. Niku as the replacement for either Morrissey or Pionk, offensively, and maybe reunited with Poolman on a bottom pairing, for a more up tempo look, from time to time. Talent is thinner than some of the other Canadian teams, in terms of depth, thinking particularly Edmonton and Toronto, when you get into Bouchard, or Sandin and Lillegren, whereas we need Samberg for immediate impact, I agree.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I can't see a reason not to play a 3rd line that consistently out-plays and out-scores top match-ups. The Jets' major problems in the past couple of years have been their top 2 lines.

The problem with the 4th line is that it hasn't been very good.

My point about the 4th line is that it will never be any good the way Maurice is doing it. Lowry blocks the development of centres trying to work their way up. The shut down 3rd line blocks development of a 3rd scoring line and of a 4th line that is good for anything other than PK'ing.

Have a scoring 3a line and a shut down 3b line with Copp & Lowry. Skilled young players can try to win a spot on that 3a line. They can then try to work their way up to the top 6. They may never make that, but they will have had a chance and they may be a good 3rd line.

That 3b line can have shifts spotted against any opposition line. If an opponents 2nd line is causing us trouble, a couple of shifts against that line might put them off their game, or at least give our 2nd line a break against a weaker opponent. Of course, you can't always get the matchups you want. But either of our bottom 6 lines should feast on most team's 4th lines.

Our skilled young players who aren't good enough to step straight into the top 6 have no place to go. They need to transform themselves into checkers just to get TOI and they need to become better at it than other players who have played checking roles for years.

It seems to me that our coach keeps trying to make players fit his vision of what he wants from a player rather than trying to optimize the talents of the players that he has.

 

[jgimp]

Like I said, I'd love to see him as 2LD actually beside Pionk... but I thought Poolman would stay in the lineup from day one as well. Its not really how the Jets roll.

They usually have extreme patience with prospects (likely too much so now...) and Maurice loves guys lie Forbort and Beaulieu... Samberg is likely better than both but Mo loves his vets. Same reason Thompson will play and one of Harkins or Appleton will sit... kind of no reason ha.

I think if Slamberg comes out hard out of camp, PKs well, throws some big hits and can move the puck out of his end efficiently, PoMo will play him over BooLoo. I also think there is a gentleman’s agreement with him signing that he makes the team out of camp (barring sucking of course).

 

[surixon]

I think if Slamberg comes out hard out of camp, PKs well, throws some big hits and can move the puck out of his end efficiently, PoMo will play him over BooLoo. I also think there is a gentleman’s agreement with him signing that he makes the team out of camp (barring sucking of course).

Samberg will be on the team but it will take Moe at least a 1/4 of the season to use him on the PK judging by how he integrated dmen like Morrissey and Poolman.

 

[Teemusalami204]

If Maurice keeps everything the same he has the excuse that Chevy hasn’t drafted to fit our system.

if Maurice starts drastically changing the structure of our lines it will show the system he implements isn’t working.

There is politics going on even when it seems like it’s a match made in heaven between our gm and coach.

 

[surixon]

If Maurice keeps everything the same he has the excuse that Chevy hasn’t drafted to fit our system.

if Maurice starts drastically changing the structure of our lines it will show the system he implements isn’t working.

There is politics going on even when it seems like it’s a match made in heaven between our gm and coach.

I still don't really see how they are on the same page. The player types we draft are in contrast to the type of scheme and player type our coach prefers.

It seems so much energy is spent transforming certain players games to fit the style our coach wants.

Laine was arguably a more lethal player in 16-17 and 18-19 then he has been the last few years. Sure he got his offense back to where it was in 17-18 playing a more grinding Maurice style of game but imo the smarter development option would have been to emphasis his strengths from the first few years while slowly backfilling his weaknesses. What happened is Moe has gone about completely altering his game. We ate seeing similarly with a player like Ves and Ehlers has continually been thrown under the bus by the coach for not playing how he wants him to despite terrific results.

We need to bring in someone who is more concerned with deriving something to match our players then spending so much time trying to change our players into what he wants them to be.

 

[buggs]

If Lowry can reprise his performance of 2016/17 through 2018/19, it's hard not to like what he brings. The Jets have plenty of scoring firepower, so they don't need Lowry's line to score if he's shutting down and out-scoring high-end opposition.

While I'm inclined to agree with you it wasn't very long ago somebody (not you) was mentioning our lack of scoring beyond our top 6. It's pretty obvious why that is and it's the roles that Maurice assigns those other lines. As you indicate Lowry's line is outscoring, even if it's not really scoring, so it is doing its job. The fourth line isn't really given much time or latitude or, as Mort points out, played to its strength.

As long as Lowry is here, nothing will change so the scoring had better come from the top six and it better be enough. I'd like to see more balance in minutes between the 3rd and 4th lines and a slight reduction in minutes to the first line so we don't always get to see exhausted Scheifele/Wheeler late in the 3rd/OT. But I don't expect to see it.

 

[surixon]

While I'm inclined to agree with you it wasn't very long ago somebody (not you) was mentioning our lack of scoring beyond our top 6. It's pretty obvious why that is and it's the roles that Maurice assigns those other lines. As you indicate Lowry's line is outscoring, even if it's not really scoring, so it is doing its job. The fourth line isn't really given much time or latitude or, as Mort points out, played to its strength.

As long as Lowry is here, nothing will change so the scoring had better come from the top six and it better be enough. I'd like to see more balance in minutes between the 3rd and 4th lines and a slight reduction in minutes to the first line so we don't always get to see exhausted Scheifele/Wheeler late in the 3rd/OT. But I don't expect to see it.

I dont have an issue with a 3a 3b set up where one line is geared towards suppression and one geared towards offense.

The issue is that Maurice likes to dress PK specialists on his fourth line that have limited if not negative value at ES which necessitates overpaying his top line.

Dress a quality 3b line that can be trusted to play 10 - 11 ES minutes and outscore. That will allow our top line to stay fresh, especially in what is likely to be a condensed season.

 

[ps241]

I think one of the Challenges is Maurice has coached teams in the NHL from 1988 until 2017 that had designated fighters. He really is use to playing his 4th line role players 6 or less minutes and playing his top guys allot.

I think with a mildly improved D core and Stastny on the second line our top 6 will take a jump up this season.

 

[surixon]

I think one of the Challenges is Maurice has coached teams in the NHL from 1988 until 2017 that had designated fighters. He really is use to playing his 4th line role players 6 or less minutes and playing his top guys allot.

I think with a mildly improved D core and Stastny on the second line our top 6 will take a jump up this season.

Yeah change isn't easy and he seems to be pretty slow to do so.