Coaching Discussion

Discussion in 'Tampa Bay Lightning' started by AlmostThere242, Feb 1, 2019.

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  1. PJ817

    PJ817 Registered User

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    I've been in the world of hockey since about 1975.

    Care to try again?

    Put Sullivan on this team. Ever seen him yell on the bench? Nope. But, he does have 3 rings. Why? Cuz he has the talent to motivate those around Crosby, Malkin, Letang, D and Murray but he does NOT have an entire team so he has to be doing something right.

    I'm not saying it's good to be a Torts - I like his style, at times, but over the long haul? Nope, too rough.

    Again, Cooper is not a bad person and someone pointed out, he's good for the kids. AHLers.

    The Bolts will not get to SCF this year (PROVE ME WRONG) I think Coop will get out-coached (again) by Trotz or Sully or Babs (eee gad)

    I get why ya'll think he's great cuz the team is winning - THEY SHOULD BE - dear God, there is not another team built like this in ANY sport (hoops, hockey, football, baseball) like these Bolts.

    But he is not ever going to be the one to bring Stanley to Tampa. I really hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am.
     
  2. T REX

    T REX Registered User

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    Cup or bust for Cooper.
     
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  3. LightningStrikes

    LightningStrikes Elite Fan

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    Add the Jets to that list. Terrific team plus Buff was just reactivated from IR.
     
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  4. Rschmitz

    Rschmitz Registered User

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    Sullivan is your contrasting comparable? He took over a team that had already won a cup and was a playoff regular for a decade. Before that he underachieved with Boston.

    He isn't even available. Quennville is available, is that who you want?
     
  5. unfinishedbusiness91

    unfinishedbusiness91 Elite fan

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    not sold on winnipeg myself yep a heavy team but think we can outskate them all teams have weaknesses can vasy outplay smith (calgary) I say yes team always worries me is nashville they seem pretty complete and competent and think they can skate with us and play with us in pretty much every situation and goaltending defense etc... isle dont think can skate with us honestly... think teams like colorado, st louis and others can skate with us every day of the week so will take vasy stealing some games to win the cup... yes all the teams not just the west can be dangerous what does washington do or add? pittsburgh even montreal. certain teams I think we have their numbers though and I expect us to MAN UP and get to cup... then I worry for sure is a lot of good teams out there.... calgary scares me on simple fact is they get scoring from everywhere even more then us....winnipeg is young they have a lot of bigger bodies but also some finesse and scoring ability and my problem with them is basically what is their true identity... When I have a hard time deciphering that should I be worried about them soo much? you got to add san jose too with burns and all he brings and if healthy etc... winnipeg again young unproven 3.5 a game is nice but they give up a lot of goals...my main thing is simple i said last year after our loss with washington one guy matters more then every other guy on this team HIS GROWTH .... his excellence his ability to go ONE other level is what will be the difference this year:)

    i have seen NOTHING to change my mind on that simple statement of vasy... He is the difference 10 games after a loss and he has not lost in regulation yet including multiple games of shutouts in that situation. Can HE or will he continue this trend when it counts? If he does we have a very real possibility of winning the cup but it aint easy... Scoring race getting tighter mcdavid one back kane on fire doing things like his year a few ago where he popped over 100.... jets their center the shooter aint even hot yet so have that too... burns doing things only 7 hall of famers have done etc... its crunch time we got to be able to score goals for sure got to remember hey if team is playing their best just start hammering shots good things can happen:) we need vasy to steal some games probably :) I am not concerned so far but yeah we need to start scoring again for sure... Cant win if you score NO goals really lol.... THANK you vasy for your work and rest need a mirror and solve this quickly:) even boston can give us problems in the future.. We got a lot of work to do... Maybe we get some more scoring help at deadline... Did like seeing miller playing on power play thought he had 1-2 chances should have shot puck and kucherov wayyy too many overpasses last night... how do you get out of a funk you shoot the puck... Is not rocket science lol... But yes I am worried on this team when comes to getting to cup which think we will in whom we will face is a lot of very good teams built like us or built differently then us whom imho can skate with us and give us ALL we can handle or would want to handle.... Just being real... Do we have team that can take cup I look at record I look at whom we played soo many out west that yep we beat them over and over this year so is def good out there.... Then its on vasy he is going to have to be our best player. As far as cooper goes being outcoached etc.. at one POINT it becomes on the players not on cooper.... It is up to them to just work their butts off and win games.... He puts them in position to win and excel... They have to step up.... I do not feel we lost to washington or pitt or chicago even by being out coached.... Players play at one point its on them to overcome everything injuries whatever a goalie trying to play God almighty... Seen stevie do it on one leg:)
     
  6. PJ817

    PJ817 Registered User

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    My post wasn't about who I want, it was about who could take this exact team the past few years and bring Stanley home to us. Sullivan was an example. Last time I checked, he has 3 rings with less talent on the team.

    Babs has less talent on the team.

    Q had less talent on the team.

    What I want? Well, now that Boyle is in Smashville, I'm all in for Boyle with Preds. All. In. Aside from that?

    I want the cup here in Tampa so the guys who have sacrificed so much to get here ($$$, time, energy, patience - the Stammer, Heddy, Kuch, et al) can get a ring and raise the cup.

    I just don't think Cooper can get them there; he is great with the youth, developing them but I do not think, nor see any indication, that he can lead that team and outcoach the others. That said, I do think G6 here in Tampa v Pens was given to the Pens by O'Helleran and I noted that to the NHL. Terribly game called on the ice but to that point, Cooper was out-coaching Sully. But now, Sully has his #, so to speak as does Trotz, as does Babs...

    (And yes, I cheered for Boyle against the Bolts last year; and if Smashville v Bolts in SCF? I'm sorry to say but I have Boyle jerseys in my closet from his Rags days along with Bolts and Devs and now Smashville; JBB can kiss my ass and as I told him in March 2017, "Go fly a kite. Preferably in a July thunderstorm.'; Boyle's name on the back of my jersey >>> emblem on the front... until he retires, that will be true)
     
  7. CupsOverCash

    CupsOverCash Registered User

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    I have a hard time wanting to move on from Coop after taking us deep into the playoffs all these years. However if we cant score any goals in a game 6/7 again I think it might be time to switch things up.
     
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  8. Rschmitz

    Rschmitz Registered User

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    The only thing that matters is if there is a better option available. He's more than adequate to win us the Cup.
     
  9. PJ817

    PJ817 Registered User

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    That's the best word for him. Not great, not good, adequate.

    Adequate =/= cup (I really hope I'm wrong)
     
  10. Rschmitz

    Rschmitz Registered User

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    We're talking about how amazing our group of talent is. If indeed, he was simply an adequate coach, we'd should win the Cup.
     
  11. DFC

    DFC Registered User

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    It's tough to say that. We've never seen most of these players away from Jon Cooper, so it's tough to say if he is or isn't getting the best out of them.

    But Trotz, a common example used for a coach who's better than Coop, went through this same thing. Until he won. Now it's like he's been a winner his whole career whereas Cooper is not. I think it's just very easy to criticize guys you watch on a nightly basis. It's easy to find flaws in hindsight, and pretend all the things that went wrong were "someone's" fault, while the team that won must have done everything right. I think Cooper definitely gets outcoached from time to time, but that's true of all coaches.

    If you've been watching hockey since 1975, you probably remember Scotty Bowman getting outcoached by Jaques Lemaire (4 game sweep) in 1995, despite having vaaastly more talent on his team. Should the Wings have fired Bowman? How about the next year when they set a record for wins in the regular season and then got bounced by the Aves in the WCF? Those Wings teams were better than this Lightning team, and they still couldn't win a cup for a lot of years. People asked questions about Steve Yzerman like they're asking about Jon Cooper right now, and like they asked about Barry Trotz up until June of last year.

    Winning a cup is freaking hard. The team that's "supposed" to do it rarely does. In three of four seasons, we've given the eventual Cup winner their longest series. I think that counts for something.
     
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  12. PJ817

    PJ817 Registered User

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    @DFC you want to believe he's a great coach, that's fine. I do not and never have. And everything he's done since taking over a Guy Boucher team has been indicative of his lack of coaching skills.

    He could not fire up kerosene on a 90 degree day. And the team shows it.
     
  13. CupsOverCash

    CupsOverCash Registered User

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    Dont think he is saying that hes a "great coach" but that he is unfairly criticized for not winning a cup when he has been as close if not closer than 80-90 percent of the league to getting there. Hes right it is hard to win a cup. I agree with many that say that he should be fired if we see similar results as the last few tries but I also disagree with many who say Coop has just gotten by on the talent of this team. I just dont think its right to criticize the coach for the negativity but only praise players when things are good. Never made sense to me.
     
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  14. Werewolf

    Werewolf Registered User

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    LOL, whose troll account is this?
     
  15. unfinishedbusiness91

    unfinishedbusiness91 Elite fan

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    the sky has fallen only 2 points in last 2 games we will never score again gonna get shut out last two games again vs some opponent since it happened in past and we always tank it in at start of February
     
  16. DFC

    DFC Registered User

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    I think he's a flawed coach, and I think there's clear evidence we've had coaching problems (the firing of every assistant he's had). That said, all coaches are flawed. Again, Scotty Bowman had the best team of his era by about 3/4 of a mile, and it took him quite some time to win with that team. I don't think "They can win everything but the cup" is a fair criticism of any coach. Like the way everybody forgets the criticisms made of Barry Trotz after he finally won with the same Caps team he "couldn't get over the hump." The playoffs are hard.
     
  17. Hoek

    Hoek ❤ KyoAni

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    I wonder if any Nashville fans are pissed thinking they could've won with Trotz after seeing him win in Washington. Would be sad irony if we fire Cooper and he went on to do the same elsewhere.
     
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  18. Todd1a

    Todd1a Kucherov or prospect

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    Agree 100 percent they will probably get it when cooper flops again this season
     
  19. T REX

    T REX Registered User

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    Comparing Cooper to the GOAT in Bowman?
    Wth?

    Bowman had 6 rings before he came to the Joe. Is this post serious? I'm appalled that anyone would even try to compare the two.

    Cooper can't hold Scotty's jock or carry his luggage for that matter.

    Shocked. Actually, I'm not. Wow. I'm speechless.
     
  20. Todd1a

    Todd1a Kucherov or prospect

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    Ya he won cups before Detroit! Lol with Montreal and Pittsburgh bowman is probably the best coach of all time someone actually compared cooper to Scotty Bowman lol
     
  21. Hoek

    Hoek ❤ KyoAni

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    The point is even Scotty Bowman's Detroit team choked harder than we have and still ended up winning, i.e. even the God like coach himself didn't automatically get it done like you folks seem to take for granted. This is sport, not science. You don't just plug in a new variable and guarantee success.
     
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  22. AlwaysSunnyInTampa

    AlwaysSunnyInTampa LOLZ! This friggin sucks dude!

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    Cooper chews cud like a cow all day and that's why he won 28 straight games and never trailed at any point of the Conference Final en route to winning the Calder Cup with a handful of these same players.

    That's why we got to the SCF with Killorn and Callahan eating top 6 minutes and pushed the Pens to 7 with a rookie goaltender, no Stamkos and Stralman on one leg. That's why we came within a point of the playoffs with little more than AHL call ups to supplant the loss of of Boyle, Filppula and Bishop.

    And it's also why we tore apart a 112 point team like wet toilet paper in the 2nd round last year. Cooper MASSACRED Cassidy because there was no answer for the Point line and no one said a thing.

    We haven't NOT lost to the SC Champs in Coop's career minus a one off against that was doomed from the start because we had Anders Lineback vs Carey Price his first time around.



    ****ing seriously.... I never thought I'd have to go back and say all this. I defended the guy for all these years BECAUSE I knew we were winning with a lineup that stood to be improved -especially on offense. I didn't see system problems as much as I could point out that Namestnikov, Killorn, Filppula and Callahan didn't belong on top lines. Sure enough the idea of them in our top 6 is mortifying despite these players not really declining in their level of play versus 2 1/2-3 years ago

    And here we improved the team with no more than our own call ups, Domingue and Dan freaking Girardi in the last 2 years and we rewrote the Lightning record book last year and sustained a 3 month pace to rewrite the NHL record book in wins THIS year.


    Some folks need to help themselves to 2008 and Berry Melrose giving Stamkos getting 8 minutes a night and they'll be thankfuk just how much our fortunes have improved to be angry we are losing to Cup champs deep in the playoffs every year


    Edit: I forgot Sergachev..... Who we have sheltered and Cernak. Another rookie
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
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  23. AlwaysSunnyInTampa

    AlwaysSunnyInTampa LOLZ! This friggin sucks dude!

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    Sorry for the wall of text.

    Let me speak out of sincerity for a minute. I wanted Joe Maddon fired after 2010. I didn't see a guy who was gonna get it done. 3 year window, didn't win a World Series and we were gonna lose a lot of guys. I grew sick of how unconventional he was. Then 2011 happened and I realized on my own what everyone had been telling me all along in that he was THE best in the game.

    It wasn't because he was the kind of guy who was looney enough to put Dan freaking Johnson up on our last out on a hunch. It was because he was the kind of guy who got up on the teams private jet after THE sorriest start I had seen since 2006 and said "I would like to make a toast to the best 1-8 team in baseball" and then we made the playoffs and would have again the next year had we not suffered so many injuries. But for good measure we made it again until the deep as hell AL Champions did us in no different than the Rangers both times in 2010 and 2011. Sure enough ol boy ends the most legendary curse in sports history winning the World Series with the Cubs

    I learned winning is a mentality.

    And whatever Cooper does is between him and the boys. I learned to stop questioning success years ago because if a guy who just stands there and chews gum wins at every level he's at USHL, AHL, NHL (possibly this year) then you know what? He gets his teams to win
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  24. Todd1a

    Todd1a Kucherov or prospect

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    Jon Cooper is the Tony Dungy for the Tampa Bay lightning. Dungy failed to win the superbowl in tampa and right away they brought Jon Gruden in and even the Bucs players like sapp said there needed to be a change from Tony Dungy. Now Dungy turned around a complete Dumpster fire but ive seen it before he was never winning a super bowl with the bucs ownership knew they needed to make a coaching change to win the superbowl. I can see this with Jon Cooper is he a good coach? yes he is. Is Jon Cooper a nice guy ? Yes he is. Is Jon Cooper going to well in the regular season? yes he is. Is Jon Cooper going to ever win the Stanley Cup for the Tampa Bay lightning ? No he will not. This Roster is really good I don't think we need help at the trade deadline because I think this is the best roster in the NHL! and yet Cooper won't get past the Caps or Penguins in the playoffs. The depth of the rosters for the Caps and Penguins is not even as close to the Lightning for talent level. We also forget the Cooper flaws in 2015 in round one vs a Redwings team on a decline it took 7 games to be the redwings by one goal. Game 7 last year at home coopers team got destroyed at home for a game 7 vs the caps 4-0. in 2017 coopers team missed the playoffs and in 2016 once again the lightning had a 3-2 series lead in the ECF and lost the series just like having a 3-2 series lead vs the Caps in 2018 and lost the series. So if the goal is to hang a divison championship banners or a regular season champions banner then cooper is your guy. Really was there a better way yzerman could have built this roster ? yzerman has done everything possible to put this Allstar roster on the Ice. Now with Cap problems coming the roster is going to have less talent on it ? so you think Cooper will win a cup with less talent on his roster when he has not been able to for the last 3-4 years with a stacked roster ? Just to get under the cap next season your losing Stralman to free agency!, trading one of Miller or Gourde and of course trading or buying out Callahan.
     
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  25. Rschmitz

    Rschmitz Registered User

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    The furthest Dungy ever got was to the NFC title game, we kept getting eliminated in the 1st round despite a very healthy roster. Coopers postseason success has been vastly superior to Dungy's, only being eliminated in the 1st round once or missing the cut on the last day due to critical injuries.

    I don't think it's an accurate comparison
     
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