Cloning an Ex Leaf

[leaffaninvancouver]

Sundin would be a monster on this team and his size and skill set would be an asset in the current style of play.

Looking at team needs though, I think a prime Curtis Joseph would be our best option.

 

[The Nic]

Hard to say, are we thinking if they were the exact player reborn, or if they were the exact player reborn in comparison to their time? Like Dermott would go back 50 years and be the greatest player ever just with his conditioning and skills. Or are we talking about the #1guy in 1920 would be that dominant now?

Either way, names I am surprised no one has said:

Frank Mahovlich - Best LWer to ever play for the Leafs. We are weak at LW, was a ROY winner, his 60-61 season is maybe the most impressive in Leaf history (70 games, 48 goals, 84 points , 131 pims, 21.5% shooting percentage)
Dave Keon - Long time C, a bit small but had a ton of skill and heart. Was tough as nails, Calder, Byng x 2, Smythe in Leafs last Cup win.
Ted Kennedy - Last Leaf to win a MVP. Finished 4 times in the top 5 in MVP voting (all on the Leafs)

Reaching really far back
Dave Pratt, only Leafs D to ever win a MVP award. Probably the best statistical Leafs season by a D, 58 points in a 50 game season. 6'3 D whos career was cut short due to injuries.

You mean Walter "Babe" Pratt. Pratt's 1943-44 season was certainly outstanding... but he didn't approach those kind of numbers again in any of his other 10 NHL seasons. Played his final 5 professional seasons in the minors (though many players in the minors of those days would be of NHL quality now). I strongly feel that for position fit, talent, productivity, consistency, leadership, courage and potential to improve the current roster... the answer has to be Borje Salming.

 

[The Nic]

I would call it very close, giving Horton a slight edge, partly because he was a right hand shot, while Salming was a lefty. I'd very happily take either.

Salming played the right side... exclusively.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Salming played the right side... exclusively.

Even if that were true, which it isn't, as he played the left side at least part of the time for Sweden, it still does not negate anything I said.

 

[The Nic]

Even if that were true, which it isn't, as he played the left side at least part of the time for Sweden, it still does not negate anything I said.

I actually think that it does. Both Horton and Salming played the exact same position -- #1 RD -- for the Maple Leafs in all of their time here. Tim Horton accumulated 518 points in 1,445 NHL games... an average of 0.36 PPG. Borje Salming accumulated 787 points in 1,148 NHL games... an average of 0.69 PPG. I loved Timmy Horton as a player... but I don't see how this choice is even close.

 

[kevsh]

Gilmour.

Slap the "C" on his chest and within weeks we'll see Matthews throwing Scott Stevens-like bodychecks and Nylander dropping the mitts to take on Zdeno.

I grossly over-exaggerate but no doubt his leadership would transform this team.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Salming. Though Mats, Horton, Roberts and Dougie, and Turnbull are also intriguing

 

[notDatsyuk]

I actually think that it does. Both Horton and Salming played the exact same position -- #1 RD -- for the Maple Leafs in all of their time here. Tim Horton accumulated 518 points in 1,445 NHL games... an average of 0.36 PPG. Borje Salming accumulated 787 points in 1,148 NHL games... an average of 0.69 PPG. I loved Timmy Horton as a player... but I don't see how this choice is even close.

It doesn't negate anything I said.

I said they are close, but I prefer Horton (slightly).

I said Horton shoots right, and Salming shoots left.

I said I would happily take either.

Your mentioning of one stat is really meaningless, especially considering the difference in the game between their respective careers. For example, are you aware that Horton, like Doug Harvey, was told he would be fined if he carried the puck across centre rather than passing?

 

[The Nic]

It doesn't negate anything I said.

I said they are close, but I prefer Horton (slightly).

I said Horton shoots right, and Salming shoots left.

I said I would happily take either.

Your mentioning of one stat is really meaningless, especially considering the difference in the game between their respective careers. For example, are you aware that Horton, like Doug Harvey, was told he would be fined if he carried the puck across centre rather than passing?

Right. You say that the number of points that both players generated during their careers is meaningless... and yet which way they shoot is something that you've mentioned several times... even though both men played exactly the same position on the ice... and played it very well. That's very difficult to understand.

 

[slozo]

Really fun thread, and great idea.

The options to pick from are so close I feel, that I almost have to break it down further into need, fit into the lineup, and even how they would help us match-up wise (Columbus 1st, probably Boston next if looking ahead, which you shouldn't).

So I'm thinking top end players . . . Gilmour, Clark, Sundin, Salming, Belfour.
Ok, so you have to consider that positions like goalie, unless just mediocre or weak, should stay the same unless it's a significant upgrade. Unlike the skaters, there can be only one . . . so with that said, Andersen is solid enough, and I think a skater would be a much greater help.

So what are our current greatest weaknesses?
Very little grit, a slight lack of scoring depth. Defensive defencemen.

As amazing as top-end Gilmour was . . . I honestly think that with Matthews and Tavares, he would get lost in the shuffle a bit, but of course one of those guys (Tavares or Gilmour) would be pushed to wing. Shoot, I think I might have just changed my mind . . that means Nylander - Matthews - Marner would have Gilmour - Tavares - whoever behind them. Crapdoodles, that would be amazing, I give you that.

I think Sundin is a similar situation as Gilmour . . . we think of them differently, but really - Matthews is just a modern day Sundin with slightly better scoring touch. Gilmour is like a higher level Marner.

But I think it's between Wendel and Borje, myself.
Wendel checks off - in an A+ fashion, I might add - a couple of our glaring weaknesses in one fell swoop. Crash and bang player that would make our current banger Hyman look like a soft wuss (no offence intended, I love Hyman). Tough as nails playoff performer who can score with the best of them. And, he can skate, would be able to keep up in today's game, I have no doubt of it.

Borje would help us tremendously too, no doubt. Would instantly be our best defensive d-man, likely pairing with Reilly, and would give Reilly reign to be able to play his offensive game. Would add to our grit as well.

Really, really tough call . . . sigh.
But I choose Wendel Clark, because he is a piece we don't have at all - super tough and gritty winger who is also a top end scorer. And then I cross my fingers that our next match-up is Boston, so that I can watch a game 4 dust-up where Clark literally beheads Marchand.

Nice to dream.

 

[Gabriel426]

Can we just clone someone with Sundin's size and skill, Robert's grit, Dougie's heart, Clark's soul, Gartner's speed, and McCabe's shot

 

[deltamachine]

I know Dubas' first choice. Nik Borchevsky.

 

[zeke]

I know Dubas' first choice. Nik Borchevsky.

Dubas' additions to our starting lineup:

Muzzin 6'3" 217
Engvall 6'5" 214
Spezza 6'3" 216
Holl 6'4" 210
Clifford 6'2" 211
Ceci 6'2" 210
Tavares 6'1" 215
Mikheyev 6'3" 195
Barrie 5'11" 197
Kerfoot 5'10" 185

 

[deltamachine]

Dubas' additions to our starting lineup:

Muzzin 6'3" 217
Engvall 6'5" 214
Spezza 6'3" 216
Holl 6'4" 210
Clifford 6'2" 211
Ceci 6'2" 210
Tavares 6'1" 215
Mikheyev 6'3" 195
Barrie 5'11" 197
Kerfoot 5'10" 185

that was tongue in cheek...you have alot of time on your hands!

 

[The Nic]

I know Dubas' first choice. Nik Borchevsky.

Nope... too big!

 

[Fogelhund]

Take your pick by position.

RD - Horton, Salming
LD - Kaberle
C - Sundin, Sittler
LW, Roberts, Clark
RW - Vaive, Molgilny
G - Cujo, Broda

I'd know some wouldn't be playing their regular positions, but I'd add a line of...

Clark Sundin Roberts
Horton Salming
Cujo


Then the overall team lineup is..

Mikheyev Matthews Marner
Hyman Tavares Nylander
Clark Sundin Roberts
Johnsson Kerfoot Kapanen
Spezza GOAT

Rielly Horton
Muzzin Salming
Dermott Holl

Andersen
Cujo

 

[notDatsyuk]

Right. You say that the number of points that both players generated during their careers is meaningless... and yet which way they shoot is something that you've mentioned several times... even though both men played exactly the same position on the ice... and played it very well. That's very difficult to understand.

If you don't understand that the way hockey, and particularly defence, was played in the 50s and 60s was very different from the way it was played in the 70s and 80s, I don't know if I can help you.

First, until expansion and Bobby Orr, defenceman rarely rushed the puck, and didn't get involved in offence anywhere near as much.

Second, Horton played in a very low-scoring era; except for his last couple of years, goals per team per game were between 2.4 and 3.0. Salming played in the highest scoring period in the past 100 years (excluding the WWII years); goals per team per game were between 3.4 and 4.

If you want to quote a single stat with no context, how about this: Horton's career +/-, in the part of his career where they kept track of it, is better than Salming's, and he was never worse than a -2.

Salming is one of my all-time favorite players, and his ability to excel on his off side was amazing, and I've played both sides a lot. But the difference between him and Horton was primarily in the style they were allowed to play.

 

[JuneauRiley05]

Salming or Brian Leetch.

Or you could just hit the Fun Button and pick Mats Sundin. Matthews - Sundin - Tavares down the middle -- just put your hands up and say wheeeeee all the way down

We’d probably still lose to Boston in round one.

my pick is Gary Roberts

 

[JuneauRiley05]

Take your pick by position.

RD - Horton, Salming
LD - Kaberle
C - Sundin, Sittler
LW, Roberts, Clark
RW - Vaive, Molgilny
G - Cujo, Broda

I'd know some wouldn't be playing their regular positions, but I'd add a line of...

Clark Sundin Roberts
Horton Salming
Cujo


Then the overall team lineup is..

Mikheyev Matthews Marner
Hyman Tavares Nylander
Clark Sundin Roberts
Johnsson Kerfoot Kapanen
Spezza GOAT

Rielly Horton
Muzzin Salming
Dermott Holl

Andersen
Cujo

Lol cujo backing up Andersen !

 

[Nineteen67]

Wendel is the obvious choice but sadly his skill and value would not be appreciated today.

Roberts or Lindros: brought up with the same equipment and training that the modern players had but keeping the same mentality and intimidation they had as players.

 

[member 300185]

If we could clone an ex Leaf to make our present team better,who would you clone ?
My choice would be Eddie Balfour.

Killer AINEC!

 

[member 300185]

Not enough Sundin love. Get him away from the clutch n' grab era and give him some of the forward talent we have now instead of the Modins and Hoglunds of the world, and he might win the Art Ross. He or Matthews could move to the wing.

He was a soft bum and took many nights off and Mogilny says hello.

 

[deletethis]

I really got to wonder what might have been accomplished if the Leafs had a 2nd top tier center to play behind or ahead of Sundin. I think there was a little hint of this when a breaking down Joe Nieuwendyk joined the team. Imagine Matthews or Tavares with Sundin. A team like that would have been a legit Cup contender. I think the only time it looked possible that another significant center was coming up was the first season of Nik Antropov. Antropov had some star chops as a 19 yo but then those knee injuries. It was a huge shame.

 

[The Nic]

If you don't understand that the way hockey, and particularly defence, was played in the 50s and 60s was very different from the way it was played in the 70s and 80s, I don't know if I can help you.

First, until expansion and Bobby Orr, defenceman rarely rushed the puck, and didn't get involved in offence anywhere near as much.

Second, Horton played in a very low-scoring era; except for his last couple of years, goals per team per game were between 2.4 and 3.0. Salming played in the highest scoring period in the past 100 years (excluding the WWII years); goals per team per game were between 3.4 and 4.

If you want to quote a single stat with no context, how about this: Horton's career +/-, in the part of his career where they kept track of it, is better than Salming's, and he was never worse than a -2.

Salming is one of my all-time favorite players, and his ability to excel on his off side was amazing, and I've played both sides a lot. But the difference between him and Horton was primarily in the style they were allowed to play.

Wow... you're really reaching now. So, if I understand you correctly... you favour Horton over Salming (slightly) because Salming was playing his "off side" whereas Horton was a natural right hander. The reason for this conclusion is rooted in your own playing experience. That's just priceless.

You point out that Salming collected more points only because he was "allowed" to. How about this... Horton's +/- was better because he generally played on more successful teams... and with better players all around him. Statistics can be used to justify anything, I guess. Very simply... how about this? Although I revere both of these great right side Maple Leafs defensemen... Salming was faster, bigger (check it out), more athletic, covered more ice in the defensive zone, was vastly superior in the offensive zone, was far better at blocking shots -- all of which means he would be far more effective in the game as it is now played. That's the basis for my opinion.

You don't need to reply. We'll leave it like this. Horton was better because he was a right handed shot playing the right side... based on your personal playing experience. That's fine.

 

[deltamachine]

If salary implications come into play, then Gary Roberts is my candidate for cloning.