Claude Giroux & The Hall

[billybudd]

Even in this lower scoring era, if a player is good enough to get into the HoF, he should be good enough to eclipse 1000 career points. If a player plays 10+ seasons and *still* can't reach 1000 points, then he clearly did not have a HoF career.

I don't think this is a realistic bar at this point in time.

Iginla, for example, is a mortal lock for the HHoF (and has been for a decade), but he scored his 1000th point in his 15th season. It took Ovechkin 12 and Malkin's still 170 shy going into year 12, so the earliest he'll be able to do it is in 13 (with his injuries, 14 is more likely).

To me, none of these players should be controversial HHoF inductions, even if they retired tomorrow.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't think this is a realistic bar at this point in time.

Iginla, for example, is a mortal lock for the HHoF (and has been for a decade), but he scored his 1000th point in his 15th season. It took Ovechkin 12 and Malkin's still 170 shy going into year 12, so the earliest he'll be able to do it is in 13 (with his injuries, 14 is more likely).

To me, none of these players should be controversial HHoF inductions, even if they retired tomorrow.

*Sigh*

People are focusing on when I (erroneously) put "10+ years to reach 1000". My intent was more on the "+" part, as in they play 10, 12, 15, 18 years, etc., rather than talking about reaching 1000 by year 10.

Most players who are HoF worthy will reach 1000 points in their career, whether it takes them 10, 15, or 18 seasons to do so. Even in today's lower scoring era, there are multiple players who will reach 1000 points (including guys who likely aren't HoF worthy like Spezza, Eric Staal, and potentially Rick Nash).

Which was my point if people stop fixating on the "10+ years" thing and looking at the overall argument that even in this day and age, 1000 career points is in reach for players that aren't even generational.

 

[Laineux]

Martin St.Louis doesn't have 1,000 points. It's not a requirement for the Hall at all, although yes, it is in reach for players that are simply elite and not generational.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Martin St.Louis doesn't have 1,000 points.

You mean the Martin St. Louis that has 1033 career points? Or are you talking about a different one?

 

[The Macho King]

Martin St.Louis doesn't have 1,000 points. It's not a requirement for the Hall at all, although yes, it is in reach for players that are simply elite and not generational.

MSL has 1033 points.

Edit: Although, let's say he doesn't play that last season with the Rangers and finishes with 981 points. That last 52 point season isn't what made him a HHOF player.

 

[Laineux]

You mean the Martin St. Louis that has 1033 career points? Or are you talking about a different one?

MSL has 1033 points.

Edit: Although, let's say he doesn't play that last season with the Rangers and finishes with 981 points. That last 52 point season isn't what made him a HHOF player.

Oh sorry, my bad. But yes, without that last season he still gets in.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Oh sorry, my bad. But yes, without that last season he still gets in.

Of course St. Louis gets in. Because he won two Art Ross trophies.

My argument all along with regards to the 1000 points is if you're a player who does NOT have any individual awards to bump up your case (like Claude Giroux, since this thread is about him), you need a milestone like 1000 points/500 goals to have a shot at the HoF.

 

[bauer]

Roenick Hart finishes: 5th, 10th
Roenick point finishes: 5th, 7th
Roenick PPG finishes: 10th, 10th
Roenick adjusted points age 29: 744 in 753
Roenick adjusted PPG age 29: 0.99

Giroux Hart finishes: 3rd, 4th
Giroux point finishes: 3rd, 3rd, 10th
Giroux PPG finishes: 2nd, 7th
Giroux adjusted points age 29: 630 in 656
Giroux adjusted PPG age 29: 0.96


I mean - arguably Giroux has been similar at the same age, if not better. Better peak and prime and similar PPG for era.

Now of course we don't know what is going to happen going forward - Giroux needs to get back to ~70pts for the next ~3 years to stay slightly ahead of Roenick.

using rankings like that doesn't work in this scenario. different eras. JR played in an era of Gretzky, Lemieux, Sakic, Yzerman, Forsberg, Lindros, Jagr, etc. the top end players were far better in the 90's than they are now, so you can't compare things like Hart finishes. JR was a far better goal scorer, had multiple 50 goal years as well as 100 point seasons. JR in his prime was a better player than Giroux.

JR pre-lockout before the concussions was one hell of a player. a game breaker. and if he can't make the HHOF with 50 goal/100 point seasons and 1200 career points. i see no way that Giroux can make it. Giroux would need a few more multiple PPG seasons and either hardware/or a cup to get any consideration. and that's unlikely at this point.

 

[1865]

Of course St. Louis gets in. Because he won two Art Ross trophies.

My argument all along with regards to the 1000 points is if you're a player who does NOT have any individual awards to bump up your case (like Claude Giroux, since this thread is about him), you need a milestone like 1000 points/500 goals to have a shot at the HoF.

That's fair, absolutely. Giroux is slightly unlucky in that he's been so good for so long but never actually quite been the best in any year. He's on 575 points though, he's got to make 1,000 by the time he hangs them up surely? He's got a good chance of a cup or two too.

using rankings like that doesn't work in this scenario. different eras. JR played in an era of Gretzky, Lemieux, Sakic, Yzerman, Forsberg, Lindros, Jagr, etc. the top end players were far better in the 90's than they are now, so you can't compare things like Hart finishes. JR was a far better goal scorer, had multiple 50 goal years as well as 100 point seasons. JR in his prime was a better player than Giroux.

JR pre-lockout before the concussions was one hell of a player. a game breaker. and if he can't make the HHOF with 50 goal/100 point seasons and 1200 career points. i see no way that Giroux can make it. Giroux would need a few more multiple PPG seasons and either hardware/or a cup to get any consideration. and that's unlikely at this point.

I think Giroux has a few 100 point seasons if he played at the same time too. It's so hard to compare different eras together.

 

[Beau Knows]

That's fair, absolutely. Giroux is slightly unlucky in that he's been so good for so long but never actually quite been the best in any year. He's on 575 points though, he's got to make 1,000 by the time he hangs them up surely? He's got a good chance of a cup or two too.

I don't know if that's really unlucky. He's only really been among the top players during the season for a couple of different years (2012 and 2014).

Those are two seasons where with different circumstances (like injuries to the few guys ahead of him) he could have walked away with some hardware.

The other seasons he's had have almost all been good seasons, but nothing that would ever win him individual awards. And I think that's the main issue for Giroux and the Hall - lot's of good hockey under his belt, just not enough seasons at that elite level we saw him reach a couple times.

 

[iFan]

Canucks have a better chance at winning the cup next year than Giroux has making the Hall of Fame

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

That's fair, absolutely. Giroux is slightly unlucky in that he's been so good for so long but never actually quite been the best in any year. He's on 575 points though, he's got to make 1,000 by the time he hangs them up surely? He's got a good chance of a cup or two too.

Giroux's 425 points away from 1000. If he produces at last year's pace (around 60 points), it'll take him about 7 more seasons to reach it.

That assumes:
1-He continues to produce 60 points every season and doesn't regress further.
2-He actually plays for 7 more seasons. He's 29 now (going to be 30 mid-way through the season), which means he'd be playing until he's 37 or so.

If Giroux can play until he's in his late 30s (37, 38, 39), then he's got a shot. But if either he quits in his mid 30s or his production continues to drop, he likely won't.

Unless my math above is wrong. It's late and I did it quickly in my head.

 

[1865]

I don't know if that's really unlucky. He's only really been among the top players during the season for a couple of different years (2012 and 2014).

Those are two seasons where with different circumstances (like injuries to the few guys ahead of him) he could have walked away with some hardware.

The other seasons he's had have almost all been good seasons, but nothing that would ever win him individual awards. And I think that's the main issue for Giroux and the Hall - lot's of good hockey under his belt, just not enough seasons at that elite level we saw him reach a couple times.

You're not wrong but to repeat, over two separate 5 year periods he's been the top scorer in the league. That's not excluding anyone, Crosby, Malkin, Kane or Ovechkin. Now, obviously if everyone else played the full 82 games every year then that's going to change but they didn't and Giroux did - surely that has to count for something? Not many players have ever done that and all of the others are in the hall. Giroux has consistently been one of the top players in the entire league for a good period of time without being #1 necessarily at any point.

Now, we're not for a second saying that he's at the same level of a Crosby or Malkin but you don't necessarily have to be. He'll never be a first ballot hall of famer but i'm fairly confident that by the end of his career he'll have the kind of silverware to back up his impressive stat totals.

 

[Appleyard]

You're not wrong but to repeat, over two separate 5 year periods he's been the top scorer in the league. That's not excluding anyone, Crosby, Malkin, Kane or Ovechkin. Now, obviously if everyone else played the full 82 games every year then that's going to change but they didn't and Giroux did - surely that has to count for something? Not many players have ever done that and all of the others are in the hall. Giroux has consistently been one of the top players in the entire league for a good period of time without being #1 necessarily at any point.

Now, we're not for a second saying that he's at the same level of a Crosby or Malkin but you don't necessarily have to be. He'll never be a first ballot hall of famer but i'm fairly confident that by the end of his career he'll have the kind of silverware to back up his impressive stat totals.

In fact Paul Thompson is the only player in NHL history to lead the league in scoring over a 5 year span and not get in the Hall.

And he should be.

Giroux has a comparable peak and ~5-6 year prime in terms of era adjusted to a lot of HHoFers.

His problem is that his first full season was at age 22 and if he is a sub-60 player from now on he wont have the stats.

But if he rebounds to a ~70pt guy for the next ~4 seasons and the Flyers get a cup? He has a shot at the Hall.

 

[1865]

In fact Paul Thompson is the only player in NHL history to lead the league in scoring over a 5 year span and not get in the Hall.

And he should be.

Anyone else done it twice?

 

[Jumptheshark]

I am getting ready to put this thread on ignore.

No 30 goal seasons no 100 or seasons

Even in the new nhl. Which is ********.. mcdavid topped 100 pts already. It can be done. Some people are lowering the bar for the hall of fame... we should call it the hall of joke.