Classic Wrestling Discussion (as in non-current): Part II

[ManofSteel55]

I've been trying to get my hands on more Mid-South whenever I can. It's a good product and Watts was a good booker in the 1980s. It would have been very interesting if his deal with Turner went through in the 80s. Watts was not one to be pushed around by Vince and at least would have had the stones to take him head on. Not sure that he would have succeeded but it would have been interesting. The UWF was doomed to fail in economic terms but with Turner's money you never know. A lot of guys who would eventually become big players for WWF (Dibiase, Roberts, Michaels, Warrior among others) either got their starts or came into their own under Watts. Of course with Watts being such a tremendous ******* maybe they all would have left to work for McMahon anyway.



I've thought about the Magnum TA "what if" a few times and I'm not sure that he would have been a huge star on a national level. Perhaps it is ignorance on my part, but to me he looks perfectly suited to the typical NWA audience at the time - big bleached blonde curly mullet, huge mustache, looks like a biker but not super jacked, chest full of steel wool. I can see him being every female NWA fan's dream man and every male fan's dream drinking buddy (as far as I understand it promoters actually did think this way) but perhaps not as much on a national level. I can't rule it out however as he was improving in ring and had shown a good, naturalistic promo style. This is a bit of a ramble perhaps but I find Magnum TA to be a man perfectly suited to his time and place and I'm not sure that he would have been extremely successful outside of that bubble.

(sorry if this is circumventing the rules on babe pics)

The problem with Magnum TA was that he worked for the wrong company. He would have been the man in NWA/WCW, but never would have been able to take that company national I don't think. He could have filled the top face role in post-Hogan WWF though, given a slight makeover (the Magnum PI look was out by then). He would have done that job better than Warrior - but Vince probably wouldn't have let him as he wasn't "big" enough.

 

[Engebretson]

I see the question pop up every now and then about which era of WWF/E or wrestling in general is the favorite of fans. Last night I was thinking... how would Vince McMahaon answer that question? Which era do you think that Vince was the most satisfied with the product?

My initial thought was the Attitude Era because it was making good money for WWE, but I don't necessarily think it was Vince's favorite. I mean, if the guy only cared about making money he would have done things way different over the last few decades. I think part of his satisfaction of the product involves the wrestlers he thinks were "larger than life" characters. I'd probably say the Hogan Era around 1987-1992 was his favorite era. The technical wrestlers were there, like Savage, Perfect and Hart, but those guys weren't really featured (I'd argue Savage was only featured because Hogan took time off to film "No Holds Barred" and Savage was more the placeholder for when Hogan returned). Mainly, it was guys like Hogan, Andre, Undertaker and Warrior who were the huge spectacles that people paid to see.

Curious to see what other people think was Vince McMahon's favorite era in WWF/E?

 

[JackSlater]

The problem with Magnum TA was that he worked for the wrong company. He would have been the man in NWA/WCW, but never would have been able to take that company national I don't think. He could have filled the top face role in post-Hogan WWF though, given a slight makeover (the Magnum PI look was out by then). He would have done that job better than Warrior - but Vince probably wouldn't have let him as he wasn't "big" enough.

I don't think that Magnum would have survived long in WWF, at least at the top level. Vince didn't like Southern style wrestlers and tended to bury them and Magnum wasn't a finished product promo-wise by the mid to ate 80s.. Plus, as you say, Magnum wouldn't have looked all that big compared to a guy like Hogan or even Warrior and that was important in that era in WWF. Maybe he would have become a bit of a chemist though, in which case you never know

I see the question pop up every now and then about which era of WWF/E or wrestling in general is the favorite of fans. Last night I was thinking... how would Vince McMahaon answer that question? Which era do you think that Vince was the most satisfied with the product?

My initial thought was the Attitude Era because it was making good money for WWE, but I don't necessarily think it was Vince's favorite. I mean, if the guy only cared about making money he would have done things way different over the last few decades. I think part of his satisfaction of the product involves the wrestlers he thinks were "larger than life" characters. I'd probably say the Hogan Era around 1987-1992 was his favorite era. The technical wrestlers were there, like Savage, Perfect and Hart, but those guys weren't really featured (I'd argue Savage was only featured because Hogan took time off to film "No Holds Barred" and Savage was more the placeholder for when Hogan returned). Mainly, it was guys like Hogan, Andre, Undertaker and Warrior who were the huge spectacles that people paid to see.

Curious to see what other people think was Vince McMahon's favorite era in WWF/E?

I suspect that Vince is like most people in that he liked the wrestling he saw when he was younger. The way Vince runs the company is designed to make money more than to cater to his own interests, though obviously his interests play a role. Vince was a fan of his father's promotion and looked up to some of the wrestlers, I don't think that that was true once he was the boss or even a fully grown man.

From everything I've heard Vince's tastes are pretty bland. He liked the boring style of his father's territory with big, slow wrestlers who were also big, broad characters. His personal sense of humour seems to mirror that of the Attitude era though, at least according to various people I have heard talk about such things.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Curious to see what other people think was Vince McMahon's favorite era in WWF/E?

That's easy. 2001 until today because he has realized his goal of monopolizing the industry.

 

[Edge]

I've been trying to get my hands on more Mid-South whenever I can. It's a good product and Watts was a good booker in the 1980s. It would have been very interesting if his deal with Turner went through in the 80s. Watts was not one to be pushed around by Vince and at least would have had the stones to take him head on. Not sure that he would have succeeded but it would have been interesting. The UWF was doomed to fail in economic terms but with Turner's money you never know. A lot of guys who would eventually become big players for WWF (Dibiase, Roberts, Michaels, Warrior among others) either got their starts or came into their own under Watts. Of course with Watts being such a tremendous ******* maybe they all would have left to work for McMahon anyway.



I've thought about the Magnum TA "what if" a few times and I'm not sure that he would have been a huge star on a national level. Perhaps it is ignorance on my part, but to me he looks perfectly suited to the typical NWA audience at the time - big bleached blonde curly mullet, huge mustache, looks like a biker but not super jacked, chest full of steel wool. I can see him being every female NWA fan's dream man and every male fan's dream drinking buddy (as far as I understand it promoters actually did think this way) but perhaps not as much on a national level. I can't rule it out however as he was improving in ring and had shown a good, naturalistic promo style. This is a bit of a ramble perhaps but I find Magnum TA to be a man perfectly suited to his time and place and I'm not sure that he would have been extremely successful outside of that bubble.

(sorry if this is circumventing the rules on babe pics)

I tend to agree.

The NWA crowd had a certain look and feel to it that was particularly near and dear to Southern fans.

Even as a kid, though I couldn’t quite put my finger on it, I sensed the difference — even from a preferred “look” perspective.

WWF kept progressing towards guys who either looked more like movie stars, or at least larger than life types.

NWA, and later WCW, tended to have guys who had more of that southern, beers while driving a Camaro look.

 

[HandsomeHollywood]

I tend to agree.

The NWA crowd had a certain look and feel to it that was particularly near and dear to Southern fans.

Even as a kid, though I couldn’t quite put my finger on it, I sensed the difference — even from a preferred “look” perspective.

WWF kept progressing towards guys who either looked more like movie stars, or at least larger than life types.

NWA, and later WCW, tended to have guys who had more of that southern, beers while driving a Camaro look.

I know what you mean. As a kid, I also noticed the difference. It played a role in my preference towards WWF because I thought WCW, for instance, were a bunch of southern hicks. I was definitely brainwashed. It wasn't until many years later that I wised up and saw there's good wrestling everywhere.

I see the question pop up every now and then about which era of WWF/E or wrestling in general is the favorite of fans. Last night I was thinking... how would Vince McMahaon answer that question? Which era do you think that Vince was the most satisfied with the product?

My initial thought was the Attitude Era because it was making good money for WWE, but I don't necessarily think it was Vince's favorite. I mean, if the guy only cared about making money he would have done things way different over the last few decades. I think part of his satisfaction of the product involves the wrestlers he thinks were "larger than life" characters. I'd probably say the Hogan Era around 1987-1992 was his favorite era. The technical wrestlers were there, like Savage, Perfect and Hart, but those guys weren't really featured (I'd argue Savage was only featured because Hogan took time off to film "No Holds Barred" and Savage was more the placeholder for when Hogan returned). Mainly, it was guys like Hogan, Andre, Undertaker and Warrior who were the huge spectacles that people paid to see.

Curious to see what other people think was Vince McMahon's favorite era in WWF/E?

I wouldn't be at all shocked if Vince has a sizable soft spot for the Attitude Era for making him an on-screen star, something he craved when he was younger.
Noting Vince's intended gimmick for himself as a wrestler in the Million Dollar Man, and the gradual lightness of the 80s turned insanely neon cartoonish in the mid-90s, it makes me think he loves colorful characters with clearly defined bad guys and good guys. I bet he loves epic Westerns.

 

[bruins309]

Watching SummerSlam '95 on my day off, because I am clearly a man who values his time.

- Vince is ultra-obnoxious on commentary. I'll defend his PBP work from the 80s and even into the early 90s, but the "1-2-he got him he got him he got him, no he didnt" stuff was so annoying. And because he's in charge, no one could tell him how bad it was.
- The best part of the Kama-Undertaker casket match was when it ended. What an absolute bore.
- Hakushi vs 1-2-3 Kid actually was a decent opener.
- Since we are now 23 years removed from it, there is a certain charm to how goofy "Isaac Yankem DDS" is.
- Bret Hart is such a pro getting a good match out of that....and he doesn't throw mid-match tantrums like Michaels would all the time.
- King Mabel was a good idea in theory....but a terrible idea in practice because of Diesel being the champion.

 

[HandsomeHollywood]

Watching SummerSlam '95 on my day off, because I am clearly a man who values his time.

- Vince is ultra-obnoxious on commentary. I'll defend his PBP work from the 80s and even into the early 90s, but the "1-2-he got him he got him he got him, no he didnt" stuff was so annoying. And because he's in charge, no one could tell him how bad it was.
- The best part of the Kama-Undertaker casket match was when it ended. What an absolute bore.
- Hakushi vs 1-2-3 Kid actually was a decent opener.
- Since we are now 23 years removed from it, there is a certain charm to how goofy "Isaac Yankem DDS" is.
- Bret Hart is such a pro getting a good match out of that....and he doesn't throw mid-match tantrums like Michaels would all the time.
- King Mabel was a good idea in theory....but a terrible idea in practice because of Diesel being the champion.

1-2-hes got him that's it stick a fork in him he's done and plan the parade NO! HE KICKED OUT!
I'm amazed at how much he could fit into a 2-count.
I watched King of the Ring 93 the other day and didn't notice it as much.
But without Vince, there's no amazingly gravelly and throaty run down of the cards at the top of the night, which is one of my favorite parts of 90s WWF.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

beyond the full on nostalgia trip just hearing the intro induces, it's pretty telling over all compared to current WWE.

The pyro, the crowd losing it's sh*t, more signs than people and of course JR welcoming you to Monday Night Raw.

The biggest issue it points out to me is current WWE simply does not have that opening energy anymore. You need the spectacle and the energy to get the crowd going which feeds the wrestlers...who feed the crowd.

 

[JackSlater]

Regarding the Vince voice, it always cracked me up how he would change from high pitched almost airy voice to gravelly. Theeere'sss only oneee SHAAAAAWWWWWNMICHAELS AHHHHLOOKATIMGOOO

Regarding Raw's reactions, honestly at this point I would guess that Vince and Kevin Dunn would prefer to just film it without a crowd. More like a prestigious television drama than a disgusting sporting event.

 

[Edge]

I felt like McMahon did better on Superstars where the commentary was often more conversational and aimed at advancing story lines.

The over-the-top announcing really seemed to come out during pay-per-views and big events. Seemingly Vince did a lot more announcing as other commentators were no longer with the company or available (Monsoon, Schiavone, etc.) so the 1993-1997 era feels particularly over the top.

 

[Engebretson]

I'm currently watching Attitude Era Raws and I'm almost to the end of 1999. I think I should get a medal or a cookie or at least a year of free Network subscription just for that.

Steph and HHH have just screwed over Vince and have taken over the company. I forgot how nauseating that was to get through. It started out as a great heat generator, but looking back I can't really remember any of the faces getting payback on the heels. Stop me if you've heard this one before, but Stephanie McMahon is in a storyline where she gets to emasculate and terrorize babyfaces without any retribution. I'm pretty sure the payoff was Steph and HHH getting into fights over Kurt Angle or some crap like that, but nothing that was really ever satisfying. I guess the good news is that 2000 is right around the corner and the Russo stink is slowly getting scrubbed off the product.

Edit: Also, since HHH and Steph are on air for approximately 95% of these Raws in late 1999, I do get to hear "My Time" every 30 seconds, which is actually a nice way to make up for the the massive amount of screen time those two get.

 

[tony d]

Vince used to over exaggerate a bit on commentary IMO. That said among all time play by play guys he's in that tier beneath Gordon Solie and Jim Ross. Much better than Michael Cole.

 

[Engebretson]

So, WWF in 2000 was better than I remember and ages pretty well.

It's February 2000, and the Radicalz just recently showed up and the storylines are getting really good (aside from Mae Young currently being pregnant, but let's just ignore that). I'm right at No Way Out 2000 and the HIAC match between Cactus Jack and HHH is getting pretty good. I read it in another review, but this PPV build is the reason having a dedicated HIAC PPV is a bad idea. You have HHH and Cactus Jack who nearly killed each other in a Street Fight at the Royal Rumble the month before (one of the few PPV's I actually bought as a kid) and now they hate each other so much that HHH wants Cactus' career and gives him the choice of any match he wants in order to do it. Of course, Cactus picks the Cell and is justified in wanting it with those stipulations because he wants to main event WrestleMania. You'd think Vince could just fire up his Network subscription and remember how to build a story. You actually give the characters motivations and reasons for their actions instead of just saying, "Well, its October, time for a couple of Hell in the Cell matches."

Also, the card for No Way Out 2000 was actually pretty stacked: HHH/Foley in the Cell, Angle/Jericho for the IC title, Kane/X-Pac in a No DQ match, Outlaws/Dudleys for the Tag Titles, Rock/Big Show for the title shot at WrestleMania.

Also, also they just had a Raw at the Georgia Dome and drew 28,000 people with much of the stadium closed off, yet they hold Wrestlemania 2000 at Arrowhead Pond in Anaheim, CA with an attendance of almost 20,000. During the height of the Attitude Era. I mean, they would figure it out by next year when they had Mania in the AstroDome, but it's just weird to think that WrestleMania was in a smaller venue than a Raw show a month prior.

 

[Engebretson]

Cruising through 2000 and we're coming up on SummerSlam 2000, which was an excellent show. This was about the time that I started to tune out of wrestling (which, in retrospect, is completely bonkers seeing as the product and wrestling were actually getting good) and I would remain tuned out for about 9 years...

- I just passed the night when The Godfather lost to Right to Censor and had to give up his, umm, escort managing ways (not sure what the filters will catch around here anymore). He's now the Goodfather, which is somehow more fascinating to me than the Godfather gimmick which got enormous pops around this time.
- Speaking of enormous pops, in summer 2000 the Dudley Boys are over like free beer. Their entrance music just gets the crowd to explode. Their in-ring stuff got people going too, but I always thought it was really cool when D-Von would irish whip somebody and you just hear the crowd chanting "3D" until the move connects and the place just becomes unglued. Then the whole "D-Von!!! Get the tables!!!!" bit is classic. I'm really glad they dropped the whole stuttering gimmick for Bubba Ray too.
- Triple H is starting to turn into a bit of a face right now with Kurt Angle playing his foil and just getting better and better every week. Triple H and Stephanie were having their marital issues and Mick Foley as the Commissioner that delights in their misery is very entertaining.
- We continue to see other wrestlers transition out of the Russo-Era gimmicks as Val Venis just cut his hair and dropped the adult film star gimmick. He's currently feuding with Rikishi for the Intercontinental title in a feud that I didn't know actually existed. I think Big Bossman showed up as a bouncer in WWF New York and I'd be okay if he never showed up on the product again.
- DX is starting to not become a thing anymore. Tori is injured and will be gone for awhile now while Road Dogg and X-Pac are starting to split apart as the crowd is adamantly against having anything to do with X-Pac, and who can blame them?
-Also, Jericho is killing it right now, although he's currently injured after his Last Man Standing match with Triple H at Fully Loaded. The crowd eats up everything he does right now.

 

[Natey]

I see the question pop up every now and then about which era of WWF/E or wrestling in general is the favorite of fans. Last night I was thinking... how would Vince McMahaon answer that question? Which era do you think that Vince was the most satisfied with the product?

My initial thought was the Attitude Era because it was making good money for WWE, but I don't necessarily think it was Vince's favorite. I mean, if the guy only cared about making money he would have done things way different over the last few decades. I think part of his satisfaction of the product involves the wrestlers he thinks were "larger than life" characters. I'd probably say the Hogan Era around 1987-1992 was his favorite era. The technical wrestlers were there, like Savage, Perfect and Hart, but those guys weren't really featured (I'd argue Savage was only featured because Hogan took time off to film "No Holds Barred" and Savage was more the placeholder for when Hogan returned). Mainly, it was guys like Hogan, Andre, Undertaker and Warrior who were the huge spectacles that people paid to see.

Curious to see what other people think was Vince McMahon's favorite era in WWF/E?

Not really featured? What? Two of those three were World Champion in that time. Mr. Perfect was always featured as well.

 

[Natey]

Vince used to over exaggerate a bit on commentary IMO. That said among all time play by play guys he's in that tier beneath Gordon Solie and Jim Ross. Much better than Michael Cole.

Michael Cole is actually solid when he's not got Vince screaming in his ear.

Watch the Mae Young Classic. He's fantastic.

 

[UnrealMachine]

I've been watching episodes from the Million Dollar Man: Priceless collection. So much good material, especially his attempts (successfully, in my book) to purchase the heavyweight championship via Andre, the million dollar belt, and various persons. His WM VI match against Jake "the snake" Roberts and Jake's pre-match interview is pure freaking poetry.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

I've been watching episodes from the Million Dollar Man: Priceless collection. So much good material, especially his attempts (successfully, in my book) to purchase the heavyweight championship via Andre, the million dollar belt, and various persons. His WM VI match against Jake "the snake" Roberts and Jake's pre-match interview is pure freaking poetry.

Is this on the Network?

 

[UnrealMachine]

Is this on the Network?

Yeah. Sorry, should have mentioned that. It chronicles highlights (matches & otherwise) from his career. I skipped the pre-WWF stuff, but I may go back and watch some. A few years ago at a classic wrestling night we watched a strap match that Jim Ross called from the mid-80s that is incredible. Can't remember the details and my Google search is failing me. Anyway, here is some more info on the collection: EXCLUSIVE: Listing and Synopsis For Ted Dibiase’s Million Dollar Man: Priceless Collection on WWE Network

Edit: it was the "country whippin' match" with Terry Taylor vs Free birds:

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Yeah. Sorry, should have mentioned that. It chronicles highlights (matches & otherwise) from his career. I skipped the pre-WWF stuff, but I may go back and watch some. A few years ago at a classic wrestling night we watched a strap match that Jim Ross called from the mid-80s that is incredible. Can't remember the details and my Google search is failing me. Anyway, here is some more info on the collection: EXCLUSIVE: Listing and Synopsis For Ted Dibiase’s Million Dollar Man: Priceless Collection on WWE Network

Edit: it was the "country whippin'" match with Terry Taylor vs Free birds:

Sweet, I absolutely loved Ted Dibiase as a kid, gotta watch this thanks!

 

[UnrealMachine]

Sweet, I absolutely loved Ted Dibiase as a kid, gotta watch this thanks!

Ha! I went from absolutely hated him as a kid to loving him as an adult. The Million Dollar Man character was just brilliant, both in concept and execution. I remember seeing him on Lifestyles of the Rich & Famous, too. They really went all in with it.

 

[Ozz]

I remember having a VHS as a kid that had all sorts of random matches on it. Being in WWF land, that was all I really knew. I did know about AWA and NWA, but not Mid-South, etc. As far as I knew, WWF was the NHL and the others were AHL. Anyway, the tape had DiBiase and others on the cover and was advertising their "Lost Matches!". I think JYD was on there as well as one of the major stars. I remember thinking that was before DiBiase got rich and bought his way into WWF - lol

 

[Finster8]

With almost everyone being a champ at one time or another now. Perfect, Muraco, Piper were never WWF Champs and DiBiase when he bought the belt from Andre. All these guys had what it took but never were more than Intercontinental Champs. Too bad Hogan had the title for ever it seemed with his 4 wrestling moves.

 

[koyvoo]

My guys who I thought could carry the load of being champion in that day were Perfect, Dibiase and Rick Rude.