Classic Wrestling Discussion (as in non-current): Part II

[Kimi]

But they weren't always ahead, that's the thing. They were at the top, but they were not the only group doing things well back then. And they certainly weren't only competing against trash from other companies, which is how they like to tell it.

It's not that WWF weren't as good as they say they were, it's that the rest were not as bad as they say they were.

 

[JackSlater]

WWF was well ahead of everyone else in the 80s and was decently ahead of WCW in the 90s in terms of production values. Cameras and camerawork, pyro, music, interviews and vignettes and so on. It was a sizable gap. Vince will also pretend that the actual product itself was far ahead of what other promotions were doing, something that isn't true, but what WWF did was at least presented in a superior manner. Vince has clearly focused on this aspect far too much over the years but in the early days it certainly paid off for him.

 

[boredmale]

Vince will also pretend that the actual product itself was far ahead of what other promotions were doing, something that isn't true, but what WWF did was at least presented in a superior manner.

Couldn't say it better myself

I should probably add that in terms of who is 2nd best, Mid South seemed to produce good quality weekly shows as well(at least from what I see on youtube) but I still would rate them a step below WWF for production quality

Here is Mid South from 1983:



By Comparison WWF 1982:



Georgia Championship Wrestling(which should have been the gold standard because it had the national TBS deal but was terrible due to small studio audience) in 1983

 

[boredmale]

Maybe you can throw WCCW(Texas/Von Erichs) into the equation

 

[JackSlater]

Couldn't say it better myself

I should probably add that in terms of who is 2nd best, Mid South seemed to produce good quality weekly shows as well(at least from what I see on youtube) but I still would rate them a step below WWF for production quality

Here is Mid South from 1983:



By Comparison WWF 1982:



Georgia Championship Wrestling(which should have been the gold standard because it had the national TBS deal but was terrible due to small studio audience) in 1983

I've been trying to get my hands on more Mid-South whenever I can. It's a good product and Watts was a good booker in the 1980s. It would have been very interesting if his deal with Turner went through in the 80s. Watts was not one to be pushed around by Vince and at least would have had the stones to take him head on. Not sure that he would have succeeded but it would have been interesting. The UWF was doomed to fail in economic terms but with Turner's money you never know. A lot of guys who would eventually become big players for WWF (Dibiase, Roberts, Michaels, Warrior among others) either got their starts or came into their own under Watts. Of course with Watts being such a tremendous asshole maybe they all would have left to work for McMahon anyway.

What NWA/WCW/Mid South, etc had during those years was unreal..if you want to go even further back and wonder what WCW would be if Magnum TA didn't have to end his career after his Porsche crashed (dude was massive, like Goldberg massive in those days) and if Nikita Koloff's wife didn't get very ill and he pretty much hung up his boots...both massive talents that were gone from wrestling by 1992...I could only imagine both of them in a NWO war! Absolute shame they lost those 2 home grown stars...seemed they would always be destined for failure or bad things happening along the way...also, don't forget about the Road Warriors who were NWA/WCW well prior to WWF..still my all-time favorites and man they got misused in their later years until they got pushed again with Sunny in the WWF...

I've thought about the Magnum TA "what if" a few times and I'm not sure that he would have been a huge star on a national level. Perhaps it is ignorance on my part, but to me he looks perfectly suited to the typical NWA audience at the time - big bleached blonde curly mullet, huge mustache, looks like a biker but not super jacked, chest full of steel wool. I can see him being every female NWA fan's dream man and every male fan's dream drinking buddy (as far as I understand it promoters actually did think this way) but perhaps not as much on a national level. I can't rule it out however as he was improving in ring and had shown a good, naturalistic promo style. This is a bit of a ramble perhaps but I find Magnum TA to be a man perfectly suited to his time and place and I'm not sure that he would have been extremely successful outside of that bubble.

(sorry if this is circumventing the rules on babe pics)

 

[Conrad McBenis]

Watched KOTR 1998 over the weekend. That Foley vs Taker match was just as good as I remember it 20 years ago.

Wtf at the main event of that show, though. Austin vs Kane in a first blood match. Why the f*** in a kayfabe way would Austin agree to that?

 

[Howie Hodge]

From Osaka Japan, Mr. Fuji! lol

Harry Fujiwara, and American, and a Veteran, from Hawaii.

Great character as a sadistic Japanese wrestler, with his throwing of salt into wrestlers eyes...

"You wore it well, Sir."

 

[Howie Hodge]

Couldn't say it better myself

I should probably add that in terms of who is 2nd best, Mid South seemed to produce good quality weekly shows as well(at least from what I see on youtube) but I still would rate them a step below WWF for production quality

Here is Mid South from 1983:



By Comparison WWF 1982:



Georgia Championship Wrestling(which should have been the gold standard because it had the national TBS deal but was terrible due to small studio audience) in 1983

Man that is some great stuff!

That's "The Wrastlin" I loved and watched!

 

[Emperoreddy]

Was main event Bret Hart over? I have a hard time remembering.

I know he was champ during the dog days of the New Gen, and he wasn’t really involved in any top tier feuds. Especially for his first run.

 

[Scott Stevens]

Was main event Bret Hart over? I have a hard time remembering.

I know he was champ during the dog days of the New Gen, and he wasn’t really involved in any top tier feuds. Especially for his first run.

I remember Bret Hart being huge back when I was a wrestling fan(I recently have gotten back into it. A friend sucked me in with woken matt hardy clips. I love the absurd haha).

This was back in the late 80s to late 90s when I was able to rent ppv cassettes from blockbuster.

 

[boredmale]

Was main event Bret Hart over? I have a hard time remembering.

I know he was champ during the dog days of the New Gen, and he wasn’t really involved in any top tier feuds. Especially for his first run.

The Mid 90s was a weak period for the WWF, all that being said when Hart was the champ ticket sales and PPV buys generally increased compared to other champions around the time(Diesel, Yokozuna and I think even HBK). I am not sure that makes him over in the sense of Austin or Hogan, but it did show he had some drawing power compared to his counterparts during that same period

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I remember Bret Hart being huge back when I was a wrestling fan(I recently have gotten back into it. A friend sucked me in with woken matt hardy clips. I love the absurd haha).

This was back in the late 80s to late 90s when I was able to rent ppv cassettes from blockbuster.

he was most over in the lead up to him leaving.

The "ultra Canadian" heel persona worked like a charm. He drew massive heat in the US and was welcomed as a God in Canada.

Then WCW being WCW gets the hottest wrestler at the time, and doesn't use him for 3 months...then ends his career when Gold-botch scrambles his brain because his dumb ass cant pull a kick.

WCW screwed his debut up so bad it almost seems like an inside job to bring the company down. Hart's debut was Starrcade 97. The PPV where they finally have the Sting/Hogan blow off of an 18 month storyline. Do they have Bret Hart involved somehow to spin off it or reignite it?

No, they have him referee Eric Bischoff vs Larry Zbyszko

 

[Loosie]

Bret was over with the crowd, however Vince wasn't sure he would be a big draw because of his size. So while he was champion many times he wasn't the main event match, or if he was it wasn't the most heavily marketed one.

Survivor Series '92 Michaels vs. Hart went on last but the 'big match' was Flair/Ramon vs. Perfect/Savage.
Royal Rumble is an exception as the Rumble match is always the highlight.
WrestleMania 9 he was the main event but lost the title.

He wouldn't get the title back until WrestleMania X.

KOR 94 his match with Diesel was in the middle of the PPV.
SummerSlam '94 is criminal in my mind as the epic 40 minute Brother vs. Brother case match should have ended the show, but instead it was the stupid Undertaker vs. Undertaker gimmick that did.
Survivor Series 94 again Backlund vs. Hart was in the middle of the show and Taker vs. Yoko Casket match was the main event.

His 3rd reign was better as he main evented all the PPVs between when he won it (Survivor Series '95) until he lost it (WrestleMania XII), however the January and February matches were used more to setup Diesel vs. Undertaker then an actual Championship feud.

His 4th reign lasted a day so we won't count that one at all.

His 5th and final reign also saw him just have bland matches outside of the bookends.

Summerslam '97 beat Taker for the title (with 'help' from Shawn)
Ground Zero he faced the Patriot in a pure 'we need to give Bret a match' match. While the main event was Taker vs. Shawn
Badd Blood had the first ever Hell in a Cell main event the show with Bret and Bulldog in a tag team flag match again Vader and the Patriot.
Survivor Series '97 Bret kicked Shawn's ass and all was right with the world

 

[JackSlater]

I agree with these assessments regarding Bret Hart. He worked up the card slowly but steadily and was quite over by the early 90s despite not being presented as one of the uppermost guys. Certainly by Wrestlemania 8 when he beat Piper it was clear that the company had big plans for Hart.

 

[sabremike]

he was most over in the lead up to him leaving.

The "ultra Canadian" heel persona worked like a charm. He drew massive heat in the US and was welcomed as a God in Canada.

Then WCW being WCW gets the hottest wrestler at the time, and doesn't use him for 3 months...then ends his career when Gold-botch scrambles his brain because his dumb ass cant pull a kick.

WCW screwed his debut up so bad it almost seems like an inside job to bring the company down. Hart's debut was Starrcade 97. The PPV where they finally have the Sting/Hogan blow off of an 18 month storyline. Do they have Bret Hart involved somehow to spin off it or reignite it?

No, they have him referee Eric Bischoff vs Larry Zbyszko

The story behind Nick Patrick not doing the planned fast count and screwing up Bret's debut was that Hogan thought Sting showed up out of shape, didn't want to put him over and told Patrick not to do the fast count. The result was ruining Sting and badly hurting Bret by making him look like a dope.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I mean crowds definitely loved him, and he was legit no doubt over when he regained the IC belt against Piper, and had that great Summerslam match with Bulldog.

He was just booked so poorly during his first run as champ. Beating jobbers until Yoko took the belt, and then Hogan wouldn’t even do the right thing and put him over before leaving again. Then his title run ends to Backlund of all people. I remember being so damn confused watching that live.

Not that he wasn’t being his usual excellent wrestling self. That amazing match with Owen at Mania 10 happened during this period.

OSW seems to have finally caved and are doing a new gen story arc. I can’t wait to relive the glorious year that was 93

 

[Loosie]

I mean crowds definitely loved him, and he was legit no doubt over when he regained the IC belt against Piper, and had that great Summerslam match with Bulldog.

He was just booked so poorly during his first run as champ. Beating jobbers until Yoko took the belt, and then Hogan wouldn’t even do the right thing and put him over before leaving again. Then his title run ends to Backlund of all people. I remember being so damn confused watching that live.

Not that he wasn’t being his usual excellent wrestling self. That amazing match with Owen at Mania 10 happened during this period.

OSW seems to have finally caved and are doing a new gen story arc. I can’t wait to relive the glorious year that was 93

At least the ending of the match made sense as it was still part of the Owen vs. Bret story. The kicker though was Backlund losing Diesel 3 days later in an 8 second house show match.

 

[boredmale]

At least the ending of the match made sense as it was still part of the Owen vs. Bret story. The kicker though was Backlund losing Diesel 3 days later in an 8 second house show match.

I always thought the WWF really screwed up with Backlund. His crazy man heel gimmick was great in a time the WWF sorely lacked any good heels. They could have at least held off Diesel winning the belt to the Rumble

 

[JackSlater]

I always thought the WWF really screwed up with Backlund. His crazy man heel gimmick was great in a time the WWF sorely lacked any good heels. They could have at least held off Diesel winning the belt to the Rumble

As a character and in terms of promos, that version of Backlund was tremendous. I would even say that he was strangely well ahead of his time.

 

[boredmale]

As a character and in terms of promos, that version of Backlund was tremendous. I would even say that he was strangely well ahead of his time.

it was like for a period of 4-5 months he was a top heel, then they killed him in a matter of 8 seconds having him lose to Deisel to the point a month later he was a nobody.

Simple fact at that period the WWF was hard up for any main event talent they could get and they basically killed 1 guy because they were so hard up to get Diesel as champion

 

[alko]

The match Hart vs Backlund is in my memory one of the most boring matches i ever saw. Ok, i stopped watched wrestling about 2002. But that was sooo lame.

 

[Loosie]

I can understand why some people didn't like it, but that was a 8 minute acting lesson from Owen, and a 8 minute lesson in how to endue torture by Bret. That ending segment where Bret was locked in the Crossface Chicken Wing FOREVER was one of better moments from that era.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Dang just watched a dark match at the Boston garden between Rude and Hogan. That was truly the golden years of wrestling.

It’s a shame those two never feuded but I also heard Hogan hated working with Rude because he felt he worked too stiff?

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Watching ECW heatwave 98. Jerry Lynn just took a tombstone off the top rope from Justin Credible. God damn.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

I forgot how good Mike Awesome was. So agile. This Tanaka vs. Awesome match is amazing.