Classic Wrestling Discussion (as in non-current): Part II

[JackSlater]

I remember being afraid of Taker back when he and Hogan were feuding around Survivor Series 1991. Back when I was an impressionable young lad with no knowledge of kayfabe and Taker was a giant zombie monster, I was completely terrified of the guy.

Also, Papa Shango after he made Ultimate Warrior convulse and vomit. Again, was not familiar with kayfabe at the time and I was not cool with some voodoo witch doctor making my favorite wrestlers ill.

An early memory in my life is sitting front row at a house show and Bret Hart knocked Papa Shango right into the guard rail in front of me. I screamed right in his face. As for the Undertaker, I was always a fan. I remember being disappointed when I moved as a kid and heard my parents mention that we now lived across the street from an undertaker. Disappointing when it was just an old, stooped over man.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Thank god they made the right decision. Nothing against Tito as he was still a solid worker around this time, but Bret was on a whole other level imo. Just watching heel Bret Hart circa 1997 is a thing of beauty. He was the best wrestler in the business that year -- bar none.

Hart couldnt hold Misawa's jock on 97. While Hart started being selective with his opponent's, Misawa was putting on clinics with anybody. Wrestling wise, Misawa, Kobashi, and Rey Mysterio in 97 were on another level then Hart. Actually, about four or five levels higher.

Now if your going by U.S, HBK was still another level higher then Hart. Harts biggest matches that year were hbk and Austin, who was white hot, while hbks biggest matches were Hart and Taker, both of which hbk stole the show on both. I would go as far as say hbk and Austin were better then Hart at that time in the E.

Best canadian wrestler in 97 bar none? Ok



Bret is horrible on the mic here. He pretty much kills the segment by himself with his promo. Bret Hart is one of the worst promos ever. For every good, cohearant one he makes, theres about ten of these train wrecks.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

As for Tito Santana being world champ, the only person who tells that scenario is....Tito Santana.

Theres no way Vince puts the WT on him.

 

[Pocket Hercules]

Hart couldnt hold Misawa's jock on 97. While Hart started being selective with his opponent's, Misawa was putting on clinics with anybody. Wrestling wise, Misawa, Kobashi, and Rey Mysterio in 97 were on another level then Hart. Actually, about four or five levels higher.

Now if your going by U.S, HBK was still another level higher then Hart. Harts biggest matches that year were hbk and Austin, who was white hot, while hbks biggest matches were Hart and Taker, both of which hbk stole the show on both. I would go as far as say hbk and Austin were better then Hart at that time in the E.

Best canadian wrestler in 97 bar none? Ok

I respectfully disagree. Tiger Mask II at his best was NOT better than Bret Hart at his best...he wasn't even the best version of Tiger Mask. As far as Rey Mysterio is concerened, I also believe that he's one of the best wrestlers ever, but I still think Bret's overall body of work was better. With Rey being the exception, I don't particularly care for the lucha libre style and their excessive use of highspots to cover up the lack of storytelling. When you see an abundance of 450 splashes and planchas throughout the entire match and that still doesn't finish off their respective opponent, its kinda hard to suspend disbelief afterwards.

Also, you seem to gloss over Bret vs Taker both at SS 97 (Hart vs Soul) and the UK One Night Only PPV, which imo were better wrestling matches than both the gimmick HITC match and GZ PPV. Even Undertaker has said in past interviews that after his match with Shawn at WM, he considers his matches with Bret in 1997 as his all time favorites.

As for saying that both HBK and Austin were "another level higher" than Bret during this time?...Sorry, but that is just not true. I will admit that Shawn was a better overall entertainer, but Bret had the better wrestling skills and ring psychology...and the overall difference between them as performers wasn't by very much. Watch Bret vs Austin at WM13 and tell me another match where "the double turn" was constructed as perfectly as it was. Austin has even admitted on his podcast that Bret map out most of the match with the intention of turning him babyface and Bret heel. Has Shawn ever created anything like that from a psychology perspective other than his past self-serving agendas? (eg: intentionally botching both Sid and Diesel powerbombs to kill them off) Shawn relied alot on Pat Patterson to do that for him.

 

[Pocket Hercules]

Bret is horrible on the mic here. He pretty much kills the segment by himself with his promo. Bret Hart is one of the worst promos ever. For every good, cohearant one he makes, theres about ten of these train wrecks.

Are you sure about that?...I think this was one of the best overall promos of that year. The RAW after WM 13. Just because a wrestler doesn't scream at the top of his lungs and act completely over the top like Flair, Hogan etc, doesn't mean those promos are necessarily bad.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

I respectfully disagree. Tiger Mask II at his best was NOT better than Bret Hart at his best...he wasn't even the best version of Tiger Mask. As far as Rey Mysterio is concerened, I also believe that he's one of the best wrestlers ever, but I still think Bret's overall body of work was better. With Rey being the exception, I don't particularly care for the lucha libre style and their excessive use of highspots to cover up the lack of storytelling. When you see an abundance of 450 splashes and planchas throughout the entire match and that still doesn't finish off their respective opponent, its kinda hard to suspend disbelief afterwards.

Also, you seem to gloss over Bret vs Taker both at SS 97 (Hart vs Soul) and the UK One Night Only PPV, which imo were better wrestling matches than both the gimmick HITC match and GZ PPV. Even Undertaker has said in past interviews that after his match with Shawn at WM, he considers his matches with Bret in 1997 as his all time favorites.

As for saying that both HBK and Austin were "another level higher" than Bret during this time?...Sorry, but that is just not true. I will admit that Shawn was a better overall entertainer, but Bret had the better wrestling skills and ring psychology...and the overall difference between them as performers wasn't by very much. Watch Bret vs Austin at WM13 and tell me another match where "the double turn" was constructed as perfectly as it was. Austin has even admitted on his podcast that Bret map out most of the match with the intention of turning him babyface and Bret heel. Has Shawn ever created anything like that from a psychology perspective other than his past self-serving agendas? (eg: intentionally botching both Sid and Diesel powerbombs to kill them off) Shawn relied alot on Pat Patterson to do that for him.

Wait....wot?

Misawa is and always will be better then Bret Hart. And its not even debateable.

25 five star matches
First ever six star match
Three time wrestler of the year

I think he had more five star matches in one year then Hart had in his career, which was 2 total. Sayama, who was the better Tiger Mask since he was taylor made for the gimmick, doesnt compare to Misawa at all and was also helped out alot with the talent he had to work with, namely, a prime Tom Billington who was, yes, much better then Bret Hart himself.

But, in 97, Misawa was in his prime, there was nobody close to him. Mysterio was also in his prime in 97, and both better then Hart in 97, which is wjat you stated.

Dont believe me?

Wrestling Observer Awards (WON) 1980 - 2016 (and runner-ups) - chrisharrington

In 97 Misawa was destroying everybody in work rate, so its not a knock on Hart.

As for Micheals, you have to show me where he botched anything for Nash so his buddy didnt look strong.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Are you sure about that?...I think this was one of the best overall promos of that year. The RAW after WM 13. Just because a wrestler doesn't scream at the top of his lungs and act completely over the top like Flair, Hogan etc, doesn't mean those promos are necessarily bad.

Ok. Lets talk promos.

Austin was white hot at that moment. Anybody could have been put in that spot for a promo, mentioned Austin, and got heat.

Hart was so unconvincing, people were still cheering him.

Put Flair or Hogan in that spot, put hbk, and the fans will hate them. Harts dry approach and constant stop/stutter/stop delivery kills segments. As much as you think highly of it, i think in the hands of a better stick man that could have resulted in a riot.

If that was hbk in that time frame, he would have needed security to leave the arena and im not that fond of him and hate to admit it.

Hart was a point A to point B promo who didnt hit his syride until he went to WCW. Thats my opinion.

 

[Pocket Hercules]

Wait....wot?

Misawa is and always will be better then Bret Hart. And its not even debateable.

25 five star matches
First ever six star match
Three time wrestler of the year

I think he had more five star matches in one year then Hart had in his career, which was 2 total. Sayama, who was the better Tiger Mask since he was taylor made for the gimmick, doesnt compare to Misawa at all and was also helped out alot with the talent he had to work with, namely, a prime Tom Billington who was, yes, much better then Bret Hart himself.

But, in 97, Misawa was in his prime, there was nobody close to him. Mysterio was also in his prime in 97, and both better then Hart in 97, which is wjat you stated.

Dont believe me?

Wrestling Observer Awards (WON) 1980 - 2016 (and runner-ups) - chrisharrington

In 97 Misawa was destroying everybody in work rate, so its not a knock on Hart.

As for Micheals, you have to show me where he botched anything for Nash so his buddy didnt look strong.

The difference between you and me is that I don't base my preferences on how may stars Dave Meltzer, and his blatant Japanese bias, gives any wrestling match. Ask any wrestler what they think of Meltzer or any other professional wrestling critic who has never stepped into the ring themselves; you probably won't get a positive response. Why is that? Because they are so many intricacies that make up a wrestling match where unless they have done it themselves, they can't really give a rational explaination as to why one match is better than the other unless they're debating back and forth as fans like we're doing right now, and I totally respect that! I would post Kevin Nash's thoughts on wrestling critics on here but I think it's against site rules as it contains swearing.

Btw, not knocking Misawa as he was considered arguably the best Japanese worker in the 90's - 00's. But I do think Bret made more of his opponents look like a million dollars throughout his career compared to Misawa. I remember watching Bret vs Misawa in 1990 during a rare WWF tour in Japan, and was generally unimpressed with how he treated Bret like a typical "Gaijin" and didn't give him anything to work with. Can't stand that type of mentality because ultimately, the fans lose out. And no, the original Tiger Mask was Rey Mysterio before Rey Mysterio. He was lightyears ahead of his time, and was the better worker out of the 2 imo. Can't agree with you there either.

 

[Pocket Hercules]

Ok. Lets talk promos.

Austin was white hot at that moment. Anybody could have been put in that spot for a promo, mentioned Austin, and got heat.

Hart was so unconvincing, people were still cheering him.

Put Flair or Hogan in that spot, put hbk, and the fans will hate them. Harts dry approach and constant stop/stutter/stop delivery kills segments. As much as you think highly of it, i think in the hands of a better stick man that could have resulted in a riot.

If that was hbk in that time frame, he would have needed security to leave the arena and im not that fond of him and hate to admit it.

Hart was a point A to point B promo who didnt hit his syride until he went to WCW. Thats my opinion.

Ok. Let's talk believability.

A guy who recites catchphrases and screams incoheritantly at the camera to convey his feelings or a guy who is shooting from the hip and sounding off at the fans who he appreciated for so many years only for them to turn against him and adapting to the change the best way he can? Who talks like that in real life?(the former)...And no, not anybody could of been Austin's nemesis. This was a slow heel turn that was in the works all the way back in the summertime, with Bret orchastrating the turn along with help from Pat Patterson.

Does Austin get that sympathy pop if Hart didn't hardway him and the camera did film that historic image of blood pouring down his face while refusing to submit?

Does Austin get the big face pop if Hart didn't instruct him when to make his comebacks?


Austin even admitted that before working with Bret, he had trouble pacing his matches and letting the audience digest his actions. Bret guided him throughout the entire match in this regard. So no, not anybody could of worked a program with him and come out looking a star. If that was the case, then why didn't they just circle back to his feud with Savio Vega and build a program out of that?

I know you dislike Bret as a performer, but I happen to appreciate the subtleties of his work. Not all wrestlers can form a popular stable and beat the crap out of Dusty Rhodes night in, night out to generate riot-level heat.

 

[JackSlater]

Are you sure about that?...I think this was one of the best overall promos of that year. The RAW after WM 13. Just because a wrestler doesn't scream at the top of his lungs and act completely over the top like Flair, Hogan etc, doesn't mean those promos are necessarily bad.

That video is mislabeled. USA turned on Bret Hart.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

The difference between you and me is that I don't base my preferences on how may stars Dave Meltzer, and his blatant Japanese bias, gives any wrestling match. Ask any wrestler what they think of Meltzer or any other professional wrestling critic who has never stepped into the ring themselves; you probably won't get a positive response. Why is that? Because they are so many intricacies that make up a wrestling match where unless they have done it themselves, they can't really give a rational explaination as to why one match is better than the other unless they're debating back and forth as fans like we're doing right now, and I totally respect that! I would post Kevin Nash's thoughts on wrestling critics on here but I think it's against site rules as it contains swearing.

You do know Hart himself was a huge Meltzer mark and put him over huge in his book, yes? Harts own words were he was "honored" when his matches were highly rated. Hart was also Meltzers mole along with other highly rated match guys (Flair, Foley, Brody) and most of the screwjob scenario Meltzer reported came mostly from Bret. Its been stated in either Assaels book or the Death of WCW book, i dont remember off the top of my head, that Vince always had the current Observer on his desk and that the dirt sheets were read religiously by the boys. Of course Nash didnt care for them, he was a horrible worker.

And i dont agree Meltzer had a bias towards Japan. During that time span Japan was red hot in actual wrestling instead of sport entertainment. Strong style was itching closer and closer to worked shoots and was a trail blazer to MMA. As much as WWE was exciting on the entertainment front, Japan was just as exciting on the actual "wrestling" front.

Btw, not knocking Misawa as he was considered arguably the best Japanese worker in the 90's - 00's. But I do think Bret made more of his opponents look like a million dollars throughout his career compared to Misawa. I remember watching Bret vs Misawa in 1990 during a rare WWF tour in Japan, and was generally unimpressed with how he treated Bret like a typical "Gaijin" and didn't give him anything to work with.

Misawa wrestled strong style puroresu, Hart was a sport entertainer. Theres a huge difference.

Can't stand that type of mentality because ultimately, the fans lose out. And no, the original Tiger Mask was Rey Mysterio before Rey Mysterio. He was lightyears ahead of his time, and was the better worker out of the 2 imo. Can't agree with you there either.

I never said Mysterio was better then Sayama.

I said in 97, he was better then Hart.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Ok. Let's talk believability.

As in....

A guy who recites catchphrases and screams incoheritantly at the camera to convey his feelings or a guy who is shooting from the hip and sounding off at the fans who he appreciated for so many years only for them to turn against him and adapting to the change the best way he can?

Rewatch the video you posted, the fans are clapping at everything he says. Theres a boo track behind it because he couldnt get it over by himself. Hart was very vanilla on the mic who had moments where he got his program over bit most of the time he was lost out there. He would have benefited from having a manager and until he could actually cut a good promo, during his WCW run, his best promos were saying minimal things while Jimmy Hart talked for him.

Who talks like that in real life?(the former)...And no, not anybody could of been Austin's nemesis.

Just no. Austin was white hot during his rise. The start of the AE, the Pillman gun angle, there wasnt anybody who Austin couldnt work with and gotten heat from. Hart, to his credit, understood Austin was on the rise and put him over/kept himself fresh. Its a two way street, but for as much as Hart gave Austin the rub, Hart was given just as much working with the hottest property in SE.

This was a slow heel turn that was in the works all the way back in the summertime, with Bret orchastrating the turn along with help from Pat Patterson.

I dont doubt it. Patterson was a great finish guy.

Does Austin get that sympathy pop if Hart didn't hardway him and the camera did film that historic image of blood pouring down his face while refusing to submit?

Actually, i was there. Austin was completely over to the point if they did a time out and Shamrock and Hart switched roles, it wouldnt have mattered.

Does Austin get the big face pop if Hart didn't instruct him when to make his comebacks?

Well...yeah, because the match was called on the fly by both guys.
Oral History of WWE's Greatest Match: Stone Cold vs. Bret Hart at WrestleMania

 

[Loosie]

My god the 10-man tag from RAW in February 2000 still holds up today. That crowd in Dallas, Texas was HOT!! The action was chaotic, but still amazing.

 

[Howie Hodge]

Absolutely one of the best ever on interviews

 

[Howie Hodge]

Also unbelievable was Superstar Graham later in his career.....

 

[JackSlater]

Absolutely one of the best ever on interviews

In terms of gimmick and promos Ladd was so good. Great heel. He would never get away with some of the things he used to say in 2018.

 

[Howie Hodge]

In terms of gimmick and promos Ladd was so good. Great heel. He would never get away with some of the things he used to say in 2018.

Gee; ya think?

 

[tony d]

That 10 man tag from 2000 was awesome. So were many things back then. The product is still good today but compare now to then and there's a huge world of difference.

 

[Morozov]

Not really sure what thread this best fits in but just watching old episodes of Punked and they're playing the one with HHH damn he seems like a top tier douchebag

 

[boredmale]

The problem was that Borga was terrible. He was just a muscle head with no skill or ability, he was very much a Vince guy in that regard.

Are you kidding me Borga had great promos.





As a Canadian who lives in a city with a lot of people from Finland, Borga was a fan favorite here. lol

 

[boredmale]

As for Tito Santana being world champ, the only person who tells that scenario is....Tito Santana.

Does the AWF world Championship count?

 

[Loosie]

As a Canadian who lives in a city with a lot of people from Finland, Borga was a fan favorite here. lol

Thunder Bay?

 

[JackSlater]

Dead Man Rising: The Making of the Undertaker

Nice overview of Undertaker's early career and some interesting tidbits from random wrestling personalities.

 

[tony d]

Re: Borga; Apparently he was supposed to be getting a huge push had he stayed. Don't know why he would. He didn't impress me at all.

 

[boredmale]

Thunder Bay?

Yes. Maybe I was overstating how big Borga was here but among the wrestling fans I knew here, Borga was a favorite. We thought "All American" Luger was lame(I actually loved the Narcissist and thought it was a great gimmick for his personality) so yeah much easier to side with Borga.

I think this was a time period in the WWF that they had a real weak stable of bad guys since all their top guys where good(Luger, Hart, HBK, Diesel and Razor Ramon) so any top potential bad guy definitely helped