CL Round of 8

YNWA14

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Ronaldinho at his peak was definitely better than Gerrard; I don't think that's really a debate.
While Gerrard is great and easily one of the best midfielders of his time I wouldn’t put him in my best 11 of the century considering it’s still arguable that Scholes and Lampard could be better midfielders than him. #hottakes
What argument does Scholes have over either of Lampard or Gerrard? Lampard and Gerrard were quite different, but I would say most of their peers considered Gerrard better if the PFA voting over their careers is any indication. Scholes is overrated.
 

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Is it really a hot-take? I think a vast majority would take Scholes over him.

They didn't play the same position really. That's like comparing Alonso to Ronaldinho. Scholes was also better than Busquets if we're flying in with big hot takes.
 

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Ronaldinho at his peak was definitely better than Gerrard; I don't think that's really a debate.

What argument does Scholes have over either of Lampard or Gerrard? Lampard and Gerrard were quite different, but I would say most of their peers considered Gerrard better if the PFA voting over their careers is any indication. Scholes is overrated.

Scholes was a much better passer than Gerrard(which is saying something), controlled the tempo of games better, all while having the same capabilities of putting the ball in the net from 30 yards. I think Gerrard is a little more well rounded as a player but Scholes best attributes are better than Gerrards.
 

YNWA14

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Scholes was a much better passer than Gerrard(which is saying something), controlled the tempo of games better, all while having the same capabilities of putting the ball in the net from 30 yards. I think Gerrard is a little more well rounded as a player but Scholes best attributes are better than Gerrards.
Chelsea fan's amazing 23 tweets about 'overrated' Paul Scholes have gone viral

Scholes was a very good, talented player. He's not on the same level as Lampard or Gerrard.
 

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Chelsea fan's amazing 23 tweets about 'overrated' Paul Scholes have gone viral

Scholes was a very good, talented player. He's not on the same level as Lampard or Gerrard.

Of course rival fans are are going to say rival teams are overrated. That’s an awful rebuttal. I’d easily take Scholes over Lampard. Lampard was obviously a different style of player than Gerrard and Scholes and was the best goal scorer of the three, but I can’t justify taking him over Gerrard and Scholes. Scholes and Gerrard is pretty close.
 

Cassano

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PFA voting shows exactly why Scholes was underrated throughout his playing career. Giggs won it more times than he did. Ask any Utd fan who was better when they were on the pitch at the same time.
 

YNWA14

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PFA voting shows exactly why Scholes was underrated throughout his playing career. Giggs won it more times than he did. Ask any Utd fan who was better when they were on the pitch at the same time.
So you think that fans have more insight than the players themselves as to who influenced the game more, or who they prepared more for, or who they considered to be better when they were playing against them?

I've always thought this was kind of a weird mentality. Especially since fans tend to focus on such a small part of what actually goes on on the field.

I would definitely take PFA player voting over a United fan's opinion on Scholes. Especially since, as noted, Scholes was 'underrated' prior to his return to United.
 

Cassano

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So you think that fans have more insight than the players themselves as to who influenced the game more, or who they prepared more for, or who they considered to be better when they were playing against them?

I've always thought this was kind of a weird mentality. Especially since fans tend to focus on such a small part of what actually goes on on the field.

I would definitely take PFA player voting over a United fan's opinion on Scholes.
Yes. Players have a bias vote for favorites as well. Which is why you've seen a guy like John Terry not voting a single Arsenal player into TOTY in his career.
 

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Yeah and you'll find tons of quotes saying Beckham was a top 5 or 10 player. That's the EPL hype machine for you.

There’s a difference between Gerrard and Beckham though. Beckham has two elite traits and a pretty face but was still just a cog in the machine. Gerrard was the engine and definitely one of the best players in the world in the 2000’s.
 

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Who had the best NT career? Lampard, Gerrard or Scholes?

The answer is none of the above. England tried way to hard to fit those three in the team when it was impossible to make it work. Honestly if they would’ve played Carrick behind 2 of those 3 I think they would’ve been infinitely more successful as a national team throughout that era.
 

YNWA14

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Yes. Players have a bias vote for favorites as well. Which is why you've seen a guy like John Terry not voting a single Arsenal player into TOTY in his career.
Sure, but it's not like United players were picked on in these selections. In fact they make TotY and PotY quite frequently. I highly doubt there's enough player bias involved to have influenced the league to 'underrate' Scholes. Definitely not the same level of bias that fans hold, and nowhere near the effect that romanticism and nostalgia can have looking back on players (especially since people tend to overrate players after the fact when they feel a player has been underrated).

There's also a host of quotes about Scholes that nobody ever seems to be able to find sources for that seem to fuel the fire.
 

Cassano

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Who had the best NT career? Lampard, Gerrard or Scholes?
Scholes by far.

The memories I have of Gerrard was the back-pass to Henry and Suarez. Not what you'd expect from the best mid of the generation in big-games.
 

Evilo

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There’s a difference between Gerrard and Beckham though. Beckham has two elite traits and a pretty face but was still just a cog in the machine. Gerrard was the engine and definitely one of the best players in the world in the 2000’s.
Back when Ballon d'Or voting was still meaningful, Gerrard made the top 5 once in his career.
 

Evilo

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The answer is none of the above. England tried way to hard to fit those three in the team when it was impossible to make it work. Honestly if they would’ve played Carrick behind 2 of those 3 I think they would’ve been infinitely more successful as a national team throughout that era.
Meanwhile few defensive midfielders (or even B2B) dominated as much as Vieira did in 2000 and 2006.
 

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The answer is none of the above. England tried way to hard to fit those three in the team when it was impossible to make it work. Honestly if they would’ve played Carrick behind 2 of those 3 I think they would’ve been infinitely more successful as a national team throughout that era.

Gerrard was actually in the team of the tournament at Euro 2012 with three assists and was man of the match twice. Was the only English player to score twice in 2006 as well. That being said Lampard had more goals overall. Gerrard was also played out of his best position in CM. England's three best players being a fullback and two guys who were best in a free role contributed to their downfall regularly at these events.
 

YNWA14

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Back when Ballon d'Or voting was still meaningful, Gerrard made the top 5 once in his career.
To be fair the Ballon d'Or and other awards of that nature have always been heavily biased toward forwards.
 

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Back when Ballon d'Or voting was still meaningful, Gerrard made the top 5 once in his career.

I still think it’s fair that he is considered one of the best midfielders of his generation, he really did drag those Liverpool teams along with him.


Jesus I can’t believe I’m defending a Liverpool player right now.
 

Cassano

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Sure, but it's not like United players were picked on in these selections. In fact they make TotY and PotY quite frequently. I highly doubt there's enough player bias involved to have influenced the league to 'underrate' Scholes. Definitely not the same level of bias that fans hold, and nowhere near the effect that romanticism and nostalgia can have looking back on players (especially since people tend to overrate players after the fact when they feel a player has been underrated).

There's also a host of quotes about Scholes that nobody ever seems to be able to find sources for that seem to fuel the fire.
This is classic appeal to authority. The Terry example just shows how flawed the vote is. They'll often pick more charismatic, flashy or likable players for the most part as well.

If we're going by that then this should end the debate, considering Henry played so often against the two:
 

Evilo

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To be fair the Ballon d'Or and other awards of that nature have always been heavily biased toward forwards.
That's absolutely true. But highlight goal are also Gerrard's trademark. He's more known for this than his defensive ability.
 

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Gerrard was actually in the team of the tournament at Euro 2012 with three assists and was man of the match twice. Was the only English player to score twice in 2006 as well. That being said Lampard had more goals overall. Gerrard was also played out of his best position in CM. England's three best players being a fullback and two guys who were best in a free role contributed to their downfall regularly at these events.

Which is why I think someone like Carrick would’ve been perfect for that team. He played tbat Biscuits style game that let the guys in front of him play that free role that suited them best.
 

Evilo

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I still think it’s fair that he is considered one of the best midfielders of his generation, he really did drag those Liverpool teams along with him.


Jesus I can’t believe I’m defending a Liverpool player right now.
I'm not against calling him that. But he's not top 3 and in a starting XI for me. Not over Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and Ronaldinho. Since most would agree with Ronaldo-Henry-Messi up front.
 

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Meanwhile few defensive midfielders (or even B2B) dominated as much as Vieira did in 2000 and 2006.

And that’s why Viera is one of the best DM’s of all time, I don’t think anyone is gonna argue that. But it’s clear that Gerrard was one of the best B2B of his era.
 

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