GWT: CL Match Day 1

[les Habs]

Messi now in sole possession of first place for most CL hat tricks ever.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

He blew out his knee after starting every game then too. When you blow out your knee you miss games. He played every week until having a major knee injury, one so bad he could only rarely play reserve games when he came back the following season.

Please...stop talking...

You were the one that brought Gomez up. There's no need to be so defensive when presented with the truth that he barely played. Its a bad example because he didn't play much his first couple of seasons, whether that was injury related or not. You can't tack on 50 games for the sake of the discussion just because he was injured. We don't know what would've happened, if he didn't get injured. What we do know is what happened. 10 games over two seasons. I don't think Gomez fits into the discussion well. I mentioned a reason earlier, and I think the injury might also be another reason. He should be left out of the discussion.

 

[New Jersey]

You gave one example. How many minutes has Foden played so far this season? What about Loftus-Cheek? Gomes? Solanke? Odoi?

Most of these players aren't playing. Good for Klopp that he gave TAA a chance, but the next players should be looking to follow the example of Sancho, Nelson, Lookman instead of hoping that they'll get in the team over the next 40M signing.

Liverpool are the only club on Earth that get criticized for both spending money and not spending money.

 

[New Jersey]

That it took a late Firmino goal for Liverpool to win despite being slightly better than PSG. Now imagine if PSG had Verratti

If Salah doesn't give that ball away it very easily ends 2-1 or 3-1.

The correct team won tonight.

 

[Baxterman]

You were the one that brought Gomez up. There's no need to be so defensive when presented with the truth that he barely played. Its a bad example because he didn't play much his first couple of seasons, whether that was injury related or not. You can't tack on 50 games for the sake of the discussion just because he was injured. We don't know what would've happened, if he didn't get injured. What we do know is what happened. 10 games over two seasons. I don't think Gomez fits into the discussion well. I mentioned a reason earlier, and I think the injury might also be another reason. He should be left out of the discussion.

Even if you ignore Gomez there are the 3 Tottenham players listed above as well as Kyle Walker that played for Villa at 20 and then Tottenham starting at 21.

I am sure there are more guys on different clubs as well.

 

[Live in the Now]

You gave one example. How many minutes has Foden played so far this season? What about Loftus-Cheek? Gomes? Solanke? Odoi?

Most of these players aren't playing. Good for Klopp that he gave TAA a chance, but the next players should be looking to follow the example of Sancho, Nelson, Lookman instead of hoping that they'll get in the team over the next 40M signing.

Solanke is currently injured btw. He played 27 games last year and scored one goal, he struggled massively.

Odoi is still 17 and has played already in the last two seasons.

Foden is 18 and has played. He was supposed to play this weekend, but Aguero was injured. Guardiola talked about this.

Loftus-Cheek has played a fair bit already this season and was loaned out last season.

Lookman has also played.

You were the one that brought Gomez up. There's no need to be so defensive when presented with the truth that he barely played. Its a bad example because he didn't play much his first couple of seasons, whether that was injury related or not. You can't tack on 50 games for the sake of the discussion just because he was injured. We don't know what would've happened, if he didn't get injured. What we do know is what happened. 10 games over two seasons. I don't think Gomez fits into the discussion well. I mentioned a reason earlier, and I think the injury might also be another reason. He should be left out of the discussion.

No, you made a dumbass comment and are doubling down. Plain and simple. He didn't play more than ten games because he blew out his knee on England duty. This may surprise you but when players have torn ACL's they can't play. It was such a bad ACL tear that he came back in early 2017, was obviously not ready to play and could barely run, then had to play reserve games until fit. He came back last season and played a lot until he hurt his ankle. Gomez is also younger than some of the guys you mentioned, and he's obviously a great talent, so certainly he fits this discussion.

Even with two and a quarter seasons ruined by injury, Gomez has played 46 games for Liverpool, and is now a starting CB for a team with 15 points in the league and they just beat PSG. He has also not made a single mistake you could even slightly describe as leading to a goal.


Look, obviously England is doing something right. Their World Cup advancement and youth tournament results speak for themselves. But this idea that all their youth players should go abroad to get experience is not rational. You just need to look at what has happened to some similar talents from other countries to see that it's often the opposite that is true. Players ultimately need to learn to impress with the opportunities they are given. Gomez, Alexander-Arnold, Kane, Alli, Lingard, Rashford, Sterling, Stones; half those guys weren't even considered to be big talents in youth football. They just took their chances when they got to play. FWIW Lewis Cook is a better player than most of the guys you mentioned in that first post I quoted, he's only 21 and already has 130 games played.

Some of those players you mentioned will wash out because they simply just aren't that good. It won't be because they didn't get to play, but because when they did, they sucked. Plain and simple. At least one or two or three or four of them will be like Jordon Ibe.

Your claim that his development was hurt because he played ten games in two seasons, when the only reason he didn't play 40-50 games is because he blew out his knee, is just one of the stupidest things I have ever read here.

 

[Live in the Now]

Even if you ignore Gomez there are the 3 Tottenham players listed above as well as Kyle Walker that played for Villa at 20 and then Tottenham starting at 21.

I am sure there are more guys on different clubs as well.

It just doesn't have anything to do with anything, and I can't understand any of the previous comments.

The standard for Lookman is to be better than Richarlison, who isn't yet a Brazil regular. Lookman has to show his talent, it's as simple as that. Playing for a mid-table team in another country will only slightly help his cause, there are lots of English players ahead of him so he will have to be better.

The standard for Solanke was to be better than Sturridge and he failed. He had chances. Started to come around near the end of the season, but now he's solidly fourth choice at striker and should have been loaned out. He apparently didn't want to.

Loftus-Cheek has to impress enough in his appearances for a team to give him playing time. He had a whole season at Palace where he wasn't that great, and Chelsea decided to give him chances to play for them anyway. We'll see how it turns out. If he's not good enough to break into their team there's no way he'll be good enough to be an England regular.

Isn't that the way it should be? I'm surprised by this commentary now though. Last I checked there were three English players who played today who are young enough to deliver my newspaper. They all did great. It seems like said commentary would have been more pertinent a few years ago. Also, I'm a big believer that time on the training pitch can be more important than playing. Harry Kane didn't develop his nose for goal on the pitch, that happened on the training ground. He did extremely little on the field in his loan spells.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Liverpool are the only club on Earth that get criticized for both spending money and not spending money.

Where did I specifically criticize Liverpool? They are probably doing a better job in this area than the other big English clubs.

Some of you are acting defensive for the sake of it.

 

[Chimaera]

On a side note, while I admit and respect that PSG has a ways to go, and while I agree that Liverpool have to do the same, Liverpool’s backline was a fortunate deflection, an awful pass and maybe some suspicion of offsides in the build up of basically neutralizing the best front three in the world. Liverpool’s attack will improve immensely, but their defensive work is worthy of some accolades. We all know they’re going to score, but the defense is what is impressive to me.

Note, I realize injuries and suspensions made PSG play some of their lineups, but we don’t really know what that could be come February either. Liverpool can only lineup against what is in front of them

 

[Live in the Now]

That Dembele goal was fantastic. Shows that at the first sign of adversity, the answer isn't always for the prospect to pack it in and try something else. Obviously I hoped they would and send him to Liverpool because obviously but you know.

 

[New Jersey]

Where did I specifically criticize Liverpool? They are probably doing a better job in this area than the other big English clubs.

Some of you are acting defensive for the sake of it.

Sorry that I thought you were criticizing Liverpool due to your back-and-forth with a Liverpool supporter, I guess.

 

[YNWA14]

Some prospects will take their chances and run with it but usually that only works for the elite ones. Others are better off plying their trade on a different league without as much pressure on the immediate result, or where they have a bigger chance of making an impact while they develop. It's not cut and dry that one league is better than another for player development because it all depends on the player.

Gomez and TAA probably never get their chances this early without injuries, and that even applies to Robertson. They waited and learned and trained with elite players and took their chance when they got it. Now Moreno will never be first choice again, and I doubt Clyne or even Lovren will get their spots back even though (unlike Moreno) they were great.

On a more relevant note the way they're plastering Mane sending Neymar back to Paris all over the media is pretty savage.

 

[Live in the Now]

Trent would have gotten his chance for sure, he was already getting thrown in during the season before last. Gomez I am less sure although Klopp has given absolutely no chance for Matip to earn back a position that once was his.

 

[Live in the Now]

On a side note, while I admit and respect that PSG has a ways to go, and while I agree that Liverpool have to do the same, Liverpool’s backline was a fortunate deflection, an awful pass and maybe some suspicion of offsides in the build up of basically neutralizing the best front three in the world. Liverpool’s attack will improve immensely, but their defensive work is worthy of some accolades. We all know they’re going to score, but the defense is what is impressive to me.

Note, I realize injuries and suspensions made PSG play some of their lineups, but we don’t really know what that could be come February either. Liverpool can only lineup against what is in front of them

Our defending should get better as the season continues. The first goal was 100% offside on Cavani, but that's how it goes sometimes and I wasn't too worried about that as it took a weird bounce before falling to Meunier. The linesman on that side also messed up constantly both in our favor and theirs, which is why video is needed. Their second was a mistake that would have been hard to forgive after a performance that was so strong defensively. Klopp dealt with it appropriately, and now it doesn't matter. There's always going to be some sacrifice with the attack in order for the defense to be better. You can't play the way Liverpool played last season and expect to advance in the CL every time. Yes it happened three times, could have happened in the final, but it's unrealistic. The team looks far more comfortable in possession now and have shown the ability to kill off games against bad teams early on. They've struggled massively with that, but they also showed an inability to keep their cool at times last season. It would have been very easy for everything to fall apart after the Mbappe goal, but it didn't, they recovered, and scored.

I have said before that I like PSG's project and they did sign some players I liked. Neymar is one of them. However, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that Neymar started off the game really well in the first ten minutes until Milner and Henderson decided to tackle him extremely hard a few times. After Milner's clean tackle, Neymar took some time to get up. That is something that certainly most other top teams will know to do in order to beat PSG and it could present a problem later on. It's not that he's a quitter or anything, but his body does seem a bit physically frail and he struggles when fouled hard. I've also never been one to consider him a faker, so when he took some time to get up from that I thought it was legitimate.

PSG did struggle from Verratti's absence, but honestly, the rest of their midfield wasn't so great either. There were too many bad passes, but Liverpool is also a team set up to capitalize on mistakes. The simplest way to play against Liverpool is simply not to risk, but it's hard to get a footballer to do that. PSG's defending was actually okay with the exception of Bernat. It is almost impossible to keep a free flowing front three like Liverpool's from having a good chance, but Liverpool did only have a few. PSG for their trouble did create one good chance besides those two goals, but Alisson had strong hands and there was a good challenge to keep them from getting a rebound. Simultaneously I also thought we missed Keita. There were some instances where I was hoping for better dribbling from Milner and Wijnaldum in the final third, we didn't get them, and Wijnaldum won a penalty and was good anyway so I shouldn't complain that much. The Robertson cross was also a different and unusual way of scoring for Liverpool so that's another positive to see they can finish an aerial attack.

I think part of it is that top European teams don't really know how to cope with the way Liverpool plays until they play them once. I'm not saying Liverpool are the best team, but they've only been playing at this top level for pretty much a calendar year. The PSG manager certainly knows as Tuchel has already experienced this when Dortmund were dumped from the Europa League, but none of the players have played against a team with these specific tactics and it showed. Mbappe wasn't fantastic, but he was their best player, and his style is the antidote to beat Liverpool. Strong, powerful, prepared for players to run at him and to have to run over them. Cannot be afraid of getting tackled. It was a surprisingly short trip to the levels of the elite for Liverpool, but they are there and today was a good day. It definitely wasn't a fluke and I hope these players are here to stay. This does have the feeling of a special team, but that will only be decided at the end of the season. So we wait and hope nobody other than Ox has a season ending injury. Liverpool was and is missing important players too.


I did see a surprising video showing how quickly Tuchel learned French. Smart guy. Lots of good coaches simply refuse to even try to learn another language.

 

[Corto]

Our defending should get better as the season continues. The first goal was 100% offside on Cavani, but that's how it goes sometimes and I wasn't too worried about that as it took a weird bounce before falling to Meunier.

Liverpool's first goal had on offside in it as well, linesmen were rubbish.

As for the game... Almost funny that Klopp left his 2 biggest signings of the summer on the bench, thought I do rate Keita, it might just be a form thing. Fabinho goes into the same boat as Bakayoko for me, I never was sold, not since Juve blew them both off the pitch in that CL semi.
But it's early days, plenty of time to turn it around for him.
That said, it's no shame being pushed out of the starting 11 by this current James Milner, he's playing the best football I've ever seen him play.

Liverpool were as advertised, their current "norm", which means very good for early season, with an obvious game plan and running their hearts out.

PSG were... I don't even know what that was. They almost squeezed out an utterly undeserved draw, their midfield was non-existant (why was Matuidi let go ffs), Rabiot looks worse than he did two years ago (to me anyway), and yes, they were missing Veratti - but even with him, I can't see his midfield holding up against Barca, Real, City, Juve, etc.
The front 3 are playing a game for themselves, especially Neymar. The amount of times him and Mbappe were dispossessed was mindboggling (Mbappe even on the Firminho goal). Cavani is the work horse of the group, but it's all to no avail.

Also, VVD is a top defender, yes. He's not the world best, there are handful a few better (or more accomplished), fine.
But he ACTS like he's the next coming of Maldini. His mimicking DURING play, sense of control - it has to bring about so much confidence and calmness to the entire team. Fantastic player.

 

[Evilo]

Thiago Silva just bombed Antero Henrique :
"the midfield trio wasn't placed right. You have to ask Antero why". BABOUM !!!!!
Of the 3 midfielders, 2 are not midfielders. There's really a big problem. By having Marqui in midfield, you also weaken your backline.

 

[Corto]

Thiago Silva just bombed Antero Henrique :
"the midfield trio wasn't placed right. You have to ask Antero why". BABOUM !!!!!
Of the 3 midfielders, 2 are not midfielders. There's really a big problem. By having Marqui in midfield, you also weaken your backline.

Yeah, that was weak. Neither of the 3 looked good, they got utterly overrun and dominated.
Which again begs the question, why was Matuidi let go off so easily...
I swear some of these people (even managers) seem to think players above the age or 30 are damaged goods.
A year after he went to Juve, he finished the WC as a starter for the WC-winning French team and is a starter for Juve on most nights.
Lo Celso I don't care for, I never saw the potential for a world class player there (still don't), but Matudi, while not exactly a pool of creative plays, does what he's asked to do at a top level.

...

I expected Tuchel to try and counter Liverpool's gegenpressing by Cavani moving to the left touch line and then people playing long balls to him to beat Robertson and either win the ball of play it off to Neymar/ADM.
It never happened.

I still think sometimes coaches are to insistent on playing from the back against high press if you got the personnel to skip midfield.
Sure, it works if you have Modric/Kroos, etc... But if you don't, and you happen to have a physically dominating forward like Cavani, put him up against a fullback and just play long balls to him. It might just work and there's no shame in it.
It certainly wasn't gonna work with Veratti out.

 

[Chimaera]

I also think that while the EPL is overrated, it’s really hard for clubs from other leagues to prepare for the pressing they’re going to face against Liverpool or Spurs at times. It’s one thing to have teams run around and bustle, but the amount of teams who can do that and then create is limited. It’s a different style than a team like PSG are used to

 

[Corto]

I also think that while the EPL is overrated, it’s really hard for clubs from other leagues to prepare for the pressing they’re going to face against Liverpool or Spurs at times. It’s one thing to have teams run around and bustle, but the amount of teams who can do that and then create is limited. It’s a different style than a team like PSG are used to

I think it's hard for PSG and maybe Bayern, who walk about thrashing people in their domestic leagues and never once have to face competition anywhere near their level. It's not their fault, but it is genuinely hard to prepare for something you never face in your own league.
Juve, even though winning 7 on the trot, has had a decent Napoli side competing, and now Inter, Roma and Lazio - while not exactly title contenders on the whole - are all more than capable of testing Juve in every game they play against each other.

 

[Chimaera]

Yeah, Juve does get tested a bit more, but I'm talking about more what they face in the styles they go against.

The number of teams who can put together the energy, pace and power that Liverpool (and to an extent Spurs when they're into it) in their pressing is limited. It's really hard to prepare for, and in a competition like the CL, Liverpool will get points based on that alone.

 

[Corto]

The number of teams who can put together the energy, pace and power that Liverpool (and to an extent Spurs when they're into it) in their pressing is limited. It's really hard to prepare for, and in a competition like the CL, Liverpool will get points based on that alone.

No team in the EPL really uses high press though other than Liverpool, Man City and the Spurs, as far as I know. Not consistently, not as a core of their system.
Spurs have this semi-hectic man-to-man press, Man City press by blocking passing lanes, and Liverpool basically harasses the ball carrier in groups - and they all use the touch line as a border / breaking point.
Chelsea under Sarri we'll still how they do vs top opposition.

In La Liga, for example, there's quite a few teams that use high press even against Real and Barca. Eibar, Celta, Betis at times. Rayo Vallecano a few seasons back.
Atletico stays back in a block and then jump into a press once there's a poor first touch by the opposition or a player is receiving the ball with his back turned.

Eintracht Frankfurt under Kovac as well in the BL. These teams make up for lack of quality midfielders by creating turnovers. For high press you don't need skill, you just need stamina and to be tactically disciplined.

Whether PSG faces any teams that employ high press in France, I have no idea - I watch maybe 3 Ligue 1 games per year (my channels don't have the rights for that ).
Juve definitely faces high press vs Napoli, and Inter and Roma use it at times as well.
(Inter used it yesterday vs the Spurs as well)

...

Whether any of those teams press like Liverpool... Not really. And you cannot expect to be fully prepared for that, the problem that PSG had is they had seemingly had absolutely no clue in how to deal with the press.
They have neither the ball-playing quality of a team like Real or Barca to play out from the back and then have midfielders switch sides and beat the press - nor did they try long balls by targeting opposition fullbacks.

And when they did get a bit up the pitch, they just had Neymar or Mbappe drag the ball around until they had the ball taken away from them.

 

[Chimaera]

I also buy the Tuchel needs time argument to an extent, but some of these players, and how he's setting up is relatively similar to what we've seen before. I hark back to the Denny Green They are what we thought they were comments. At some point, three guys, no matter how talented, who have no desire to come back and defend or get involved in the scheme are going to struggle when they play a side who might be a bit less talented, but is committed to put in a challenge and work. The gap isn't that far between Liverpool and PSG to where if PSG doesn't put in a full effort, they're going to struggle. Neymar isn't paid to play defense, track back, or what have you. But his contributions in that arena were laughable. He at least has to give an honest effort in that area.

I also have some concerns on whether or not the players he has will be willing to do what he's comfortable with. He's a good coach, but I'm very interested to watch how well he can manage and get his players who don't want to track back or commit to do so.

 

[Human]

That it took a late Firmino goal for Liverpool to win despite being slightly better than PSG. Now imagine if PSG had Verratti

such a sore loser... Liverpool was way better, not slightly. It takes a massive blind homer not to see that.

 

[Human]

That's not his point.
And Liverpool was a better team today. Nobody said the contrary.

The point is it is not a stretch at all to consider Liverpool a better team than PSG.

 

[hatterson]

If Salah doesn't give that ball away it very easily ends 2-1 or 3-1.

The correct team won tonight.

True, but on the other side of the coin, if VVD didn't make a big block or if Milner was a split second later on his challenge that led to the turnover, PSG likely wins the game 3-2.

Liverpool was the better team, especially in the second half, so in that sense the correct team won. But they also were sloppy and couldn't bury the game which meant they had to rely on an excellent individual play (or two really counting Milners tackle) to get 3 points, you can't rely on that very often against teams like PSG without being burned.