CIS team Verse CHL team:

Discussion in 'NCAA, U Sports, and other college' started by robertmac43, Feb 1, 2018.

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  1. robertmac43

    robertmac43 Registered User

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    My roommates and I often debate who would win in a CIS verse CHL game. We are from Waterloo so for us the debate entails the Kitchener Rangers verse the Waterloo Warriors. On one hand CIS Players for the most part played high level junior hockey and are a couple of years older and stronger than CHL players. But an OHL team like the Rangers has players who will play games in the NHL and AHL. This may be a poor example of teams, so feel free to add different examples.

    Thoughts ?
     
  2. UNB Bruins Fan

    UNB Bruins Fan Registered User

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    CIS team

    Yes, the CHL teams might have a couple NHL draft picks, but they will also have a much higher number of players who won’t ever be good enough to play CIS, let alone ECHL/AHL (like some guys in the CIS already have). I’ll use UNB as an example as that’s the team I’m most familiar with...they had I think 7-8 former draft picks on their team one year including 5 of their defensemen. Having said that, obviously UNB is not your average CIS team.

    Most top CIS teams are filled with former top-6 CHL players throughout their line-up. For example, in UNB’s last game their 4th line featured guys who put up 54, 59, and 100 points in their highest scoring junior season. In addition, we have seen countless examples of high scoring CHL overagers struggle in university, at least for their first few years.

    Like you mentioned, the CIS teams are 21-26 year olds who are much bigger and stronger than CHL players.
     
  3. Steel Fishbowl

    Steel Fishbowl Registered User

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    On average I would probably bet on the CIS team to come out on top. However your example is far from average, the Rangers are one of the top 10 CHL teams in Canada while the Warriors are one of the worst teams in Canada. They only have a handful of ex-CHL players and none of them would have been considered top end players with maybe Mike Moffat being the only exception.

    So I'd give the edge to the Rangers although I think it would be a tight game with the size and strength making up some of the difference between the two teams
     
  4. kk87

    kk87 Registered User

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    I take the CHL team.
     
  5. MiamiHockey

    MiamiHockey Registered User

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    A top CIS team would destroy any CHL team. Consider that UNB and Alberta's 3rd line players typically averaged a PPG in their final CHL season, and they're now more experienced. I'd include any Top-10 team in this category, but the top CIS teams are closer to the AHL than they are to the CHL.
    A mid-tier CIS team would still handily beat most CHL teams. You need to look at age, experience, and size. The youngest player in CIS hockey would be an overager in the CHL. The average age of a CIS team is about 5-6 years older than a CHL team. Men against boys.
    The lower-end CIS teams would struggle with the speed of good CHL teams, but again with experience and size on their side, would beat most CHL teams.
    I'd love to see it, but you never will because it would hurt the credibility of the CHL.
     
  6. canucks4ever

    canucks4ever Registered User

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    I'm not disputing that CIS would win, but is the gap that big? NCAA division 1 have historically dominated USports and Usports is on average 1.5 years older than NCAA.

    If the Vancouver Giants played UBC i'm not that confident it would be a blow out. The top scorers in Usports seem to be guys who were fairly mediocre in the CHL.

    The average age of Usports is around 22.65, the average age of NCAA is 21.4, the average age of OHL is 18.1. NCAA does have a sizable advantage over usports despite an age difference of 1.25.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  7. UNB Bruins Fan

    UNB Bruins Fan Registered User

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    Teams like UNB and Carleton have played very well against AHL teams in recent years, even winning some games. I don’t think there is any doubt an AHL team would destroy a CHL team.

    A handful of years ago UNB handled a team of Russian “Young Stars” fairly easily in a two game series. They were essentially the best players not to make the World Junior team. I would think they would be better than the average CHL team.

    Unfortunately, it’s really an apples to oranges comparison so there isn’t much in the way of common opponents or info to go off of to draw a solid conclusion.
     
  8. MiamiHockey

    MiamiHockey Registered User

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    1) NCAA teams only play CIS teams at home, with NCAA rules and (most importantly) refereeing. If you spend a bit of time looking at NCAA vs CIS games, you'll note that NCAA teams enjoy about 4 times the number of PPs as CIS teams. I'd love to see what would happen to the NCAA vs CIS matchups if they ever played on Canadian soil with non-homer referees.

    2) Have you looked at Alberta's roster? Their 8th-best forward had 70+ Pts in the WHL last season. These are not "mediocre" CHLers.

    3) The difference between 18.1 and 21.4 is MUCH larger than the gap between 22.7 and 21.4. NCAA vs CIS is fairly equitable in terms of age.
     
  9. Hollywood3

    Hollywood3 Bison/Jet/Moose Fan

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    This topic raises its head from time to time. Coaches who have coached both are unanimous that it would not be close, and in favour of the CIS. (Harry Neale, Mike Keenan, and Dave King come to mind, and they also coached in the NHL.)

    The biggest problem for a junior team would be the 16-17 year olds and their 3rd/4th lines. I would point to world juniors where an "18 year old team" usually disappoints vis-a-vis a "19 year old team". At that age every year makes a big difference. The yearly change dissipates as one gets older.

    Bob Stauffer once posted about the last known exhibition game, where the Alberta Evil Monkeys beat the Edmonton Oil Kings 10-1 or something wild. Thus ended the odds of such games in the future.

    In world junior training camps there have been a number of games. (See at Wikia: Canada West Universities Athletic Association All-Star Games.)

    In my estimation, Team Canada Juniors are at the level of the creme-de-la-creme USports teams (Alberta, UNB, and the occasional interloper). Other medalist countries are at the level of the good teams (Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Calgary, St. FX, St. Mary's, Acadia, McGill, UQTR, and whomever is having a good year from Ontario).

    The Team Canada Juniors are a mile or two above a club team in any CHL league. At one time the defending Memorial Cup winner represented Canada. That stopped when they were finishing 6th or 7th.
     
  10. Hollywood3

    Hollywood3 Bison/Jet/Moose Fan

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    They did. UBC (7th in the CW at the time) beat UND and Princeton about 4 years ago. And they are generally the least physical team in the CW.

    Edit:

    I found the links, and it was 4 years ago. In fact, UND had a tough time with SFU.

    UBC Game Stories:
    Thunderbirds upset North Dakota in overtime
    UBC shuts out Princeton to sweep Great Northwest Showcase

    UND Game Stories:
    Thunderbirds rally late, topple North Dakota in OT
    Simpson scores twice in third period to lift UND

    Boxscores:
    Princeton-SFU collegehockeystats.net
    UND-UBC collegehockeystats.net
    Princeton-UBC collegehockeystats.net
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  11. MiamiHockey

    MiamiHockey Registered User

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    Well done, Holly, at digging up the evidence.

    Those who believe the CHL > CIS and NCAA > CIS hype neglect two key pieces of information:

    1) The NCAA never plays CIS teams in Canada. When they do, as you have noted, the results are very different.

    2) The CHL and NCAA are a path to the NHL for only a select few. If you take the roster of any CHL team in any given year, they'll be lucky to have one or two players who ever play in the NHL. There are a few teams that routinely dominate (e.g., London Knights), but even those squads at their very best are lucky to produce 2 or 3 NHLers.
     
  12. Hollywood3

    Hollywood3 Bison/Jet/Moose Fan

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    To be clear, the NCAA is a step up from the CIS. And there are more pro prospects in the CHL than anywhere else. But like Don Cherry says, there are also a lot of great players at AAA Minor Midget. Way more than in Junior A. Yet a Junior A team would easily beat a AAA Minor Midget Team, unless maybe if no body checking was allowed.

    Back in the day, before Major Junior, they had junior teams play in senior leagues in Thunder Bay and Alberta. At that time, though, 16 year olds did not play junior.
     
  13. FreddtFoyle

    FreddtFoyle Registered User

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    Roger Shannon is the long-time general manager of the UNB Varsity Reds. But his paying job the last few years as been in management of QMJHL teams, and right now he is GM of the Moncton Wildcats. He has been asked, multiple times, by local media why Moncton or Saint John Sea Dogs won't play an exhibition game against UNB.

    His reply usually is much of what has been stated above - the game wouldn't be close as it would be men against boys. And he doesn't mean just UNB, but any team in the AUS.

    Those 16,17 and 18 year old Junior players would be badly exposed playing against 21 to 26 years old CIS/USports players, who all graduated from Junior hockey.

    Also, seconding MiamiHockey, UNB has victories against Maine, Boston College, Union and Providence College in games played at home in the Aitken University Centre. In other words, at least one victory against each NCAA team they have played at home in 2-game series's in the Gardiner MacDougall era.
     
  14. RED ARMY EAST

    RED ARMY EAST Registered User

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    I have seen all of those games and the V-Reds not only split, but in most cases dictated the play.
     

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