CIS Recruiting 2013-14

Prov1X

Registered User
Feb 26, 2012
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Fredericton NB
These MJHL players you speak of are not good enough to play for most AUS teams. Certainly, they could not find a spot on UNB. Exclude some very good players who have come out of Junior A. Other than not getting a degree from an AUS school, they at least can play for a mid-tier OUA school and get a degree. The argument about having 29 players on the roster is flawed. I repeat my statement about Dal having that many names on their program and still only dressing 18-19 players. The other guys Just Are Not That Good. Calgary has dressed 25 guys, with three of them playing 1, 3 and 4 games only. UofA has dressed 22 skaters, one more than UNB has in the 1st half.

I would be sympathetic if the complaints were widespread, but they come mainly from UNB supporters.
Some have even posted how unfair it will be to UNB at the Nationals ( but Not Red Army ). I think it's great that you support your team; just don't expect a lot of support from me when it is obvious where your loyalties lie. The rule is in place this year and it's not about to change this year, so let's move on. :)

Of course it is the UNB supporters doing the most grumbling, it's a rule that was put in to limit UNB recruiting efforts. If the rule was CIS wide, then I would not have an issue, but when it is only in place in the AUS and was done solely because of one team, I do have an issue with it. I am pretty sure that if the AUS brought in a rule that said that DAL is only allowed to use players that are enrolled in the medical program and no other, people would have issues as well. Might sound stupid, but so does the roster rule.
NO ONE said a thing when DAL had 25+ players on their roster, but because UNB was successful and sitting talent in the stands, they get penalized. Anyway, like I said, if the rule was for the entire CIS, then I would not have an issue.
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Test

Of course it is the UNB supporters doing the most grumbling, it's a rule that was put in to limit UNB recruiting efforts. If the rule was CIS wide, then I would not have an issue, but when it is only in place in the AUS and was done solely because of one team, I do have an issue with it. I am pretty sure that if the AUS brought in a rule that said that DAL is only allowed to use players that are enrolled in the medical program and no other, people would have issues as well. Might sound stupid, but so does the roster rule.
NO ONE said a thing when DAL had 25+ players on their roster, but because UNB was successful and sitting talent in the stands, they get penalized. Anyway, like I said, if the rule was for the entire CIS, then I would not have an issue.

Test rule. Just like kids using the"test it on the dog" approach. Try it in one conference, one sport.

Situation is problematic elsewhere. Laval in CIS football is just one example.
 

FreddyFoyle

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Mar 12, 2008
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355
Fredericton, NB
Test rule. Just like kids using the"test it on the dog" approach. Try it in one conference, one sport.

Situation is problematic elsewhere. Laval in CIS football is just one example.

It might seem that way, and maybe it will serve as a "test" for the CIS, but the AUS roster rule came organically from the AUS coaches (other than UNB) who then had their AD's pass the rule for the conference. Comments about cost savings resulting from smaller rosters are just a smoke screen or rationalization from the AUS; the real reason is that the other coaches grew fed-up with UNB head coach Gardiner MacDougall's ability to recruit top players that they wanted, especially with his Christmas additions.

The fact that those new recruits, especially the Christmas ones, were competing for roster spots at UNB meant that sometimes they were healthy scratches, for some games, and "sitting in the stands". (Those same Christmas recruits knew that normally by the start of the next season they would be regulars, replacing the graduated players). This drove other coaches nuts, as those players could be regulars on their teams, now. So despite the fact that those student-athletes willing chose UNB, knowing that they would have to compete in practice to make the playing roster, the other coaches decided on that it would be best if they didn't have the option to compete for a spot at UNB, and instead could (would have to) play for them.
 

AUS Fan

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Aug 1, 2008
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At the Rink
It is what it is. The "rule" came about after one particular team was recruiting players who may or may not have committed to other teams. Some coaches didn't like that. The coach of that particular team has stated that he will recruit players so that other teams can't get them. Some coaches didn't like that.
I agree that some players will go to UNB to be trained by Ken Seaman and to watch the Saint John River thaw in April knowing they won't play very much. But the other coaches don't like that.
Until the "win at all cost" attitude goes away, the other coaches will not respond favourably to anything that benefits UNB.

It is what it is; put it aside and move on.
 

FreddyFoyle

Registered User
Mar 12, 2008
2,135
355
Fredericton, NB
Until the "win at all cost" attitude goes away, the other coaches will not respond favourably to anything that benefits UNB.

True.

But I don't see the other OUA coaches ganging up on Dave Smart with Carleton basketball (where top players go to become bench players), or much being done about Laval's dominance in football (other than a NATIONAL rule about overage players).

StFX in the 60's and 70's, and earlier, had all sorts of creative ways to get hockey players into school and be a dominant program. One of those guys bequeathed them a new rink (Keating). Tom Coolen in Acadia was the first to raise the AUAA/AUS recruiting bar for attracting players from away. MacDougall at UNB eventually took it to the next level. The quality of hockey in the AUS has benefited as a result.

From my viewpoint, the biggest source of frustration is the lack of NCAA-style letters of commitment. If CIS hockey players weren't total free agents until they play their first game I believe we'd see a lot less drama in the recruiting process; in the NCAA soon as a kid signs his letter of commitment everyone else has to back off or face penalties for tampering, etc. So in our case, you avoid Rob Mignardi verbally committing to two schools - the first letter he signs commits him until the school releases him.

As it is now, the coaches who work the process the hardest, like MacDougall, often end up with the player they want in the end. But not always. These recruiting wars are where a lot of the bad blood between the other coaches and MacDougall start. But it is not just him. Other coaches "lose" recruits to other coaches as well. And don't forget, the players are free agents and go where they please, no matter what they say to a recruiter.

Another reason I'm opposed to the AUS-only roster cap is that you are cutting the number of students registering at AUS schools and paying tuition (often funded by the CHL education program). Enrollment is a challenge now for schools in the Maritimes, and every kid from away is a bonus.

As for those MHL guys who didn't always get a lot of ice time, and don't have big education packages, they were able to compete for roster spots and get an education close to home. This year we now have local kids playing in places like North Bay just so they can be student-athletes. Is that fair?
 

AUS Fan

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Aug 1, 2008
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If UNB had a bunch of MHL players sitting out while they spend their money at an AUS school, it would not be an issue. But, when UNB has top six forwards and top four D-men who are sitting and no other AUS school is doing that, the other coaches take notice.
Much like your assertion that the cost saving rational is bogus, I take exception to your "MHL players are forced to play away from home" argument.

"Other coaches "lose" recruits to other coaches as well. " That statement is true. But, the other coaches don't 'hate' each other the way they 'hate' Gardiner. Why is that? Because UNB wins more games than they do? Sure, why not.
 

RED ARMY EAST

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Feb 14, 2010
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Freddy Beach,N.B.Canada
If UNB had a bunch of MHL players sitting out while they spend their money at an AUS school, it would not be an issue. But, when UNB has top six forwards and top four D-men who are sitting and no other AUS school is doing that, the other coaches take notice.
Much like your assertion that the cost saving rational is bogus, I take exception to your "MHL players are forced to play away from home" argument.

"Other coaches "lose" recruits to other coaches as well. " That statement is true. But, the other coaches don't 'hate' each other the way they 'hate' Gardiner. Why is that? Because UNB wins more games than they do? Sure, why not.
On another note, I have been told that Hynes wanted to come to UNB, but there wasn't a roster spot ( new cap) available for this year, so he ends up at X.
 

MiamiHockey

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Sep 12, 2012
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From my viewpoint, the biggest source of frustration is the lack of NCAA-style letters of commitment. In the NCAA soon as a kid signs his letter of commitment everyone else has to back off or face penalties for tampering, etc.

Be careful what you wish for. The "commitment letter" sounds good in principle, but the reality is that it places a disproportionate amount of power in the hands of the head coach, which creates an entirely different set of problems.

Moreover, the CIS is a mickey mouse organization when it comes to rules monitoring / enforcement. It already struggles at handling basic management tasks ... e.g., allowing Ryerson to unilaterally suspend it's own hockey team AND choose which two road games it opted out of. Is that an organization you want to oversee recruiting? I shudder at the thought.
 

Hollywood3

Bison/Jet/Moose Fan
May 12, 2007
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941
Be careful what you wish for. The "commitment letter" sounds good in principle, but the reality is that it places a disproportionate amount of power in the hands of the head coach, which creates an entirely different set of problems.

Moreover, the CIS is a mickey mouse organization when it comes to rules monitoring / enforcement. It already struggles at handling basic management tasks ... e.g., allowing Ryerson to unilaterally suspend it's own hockey team AND choose which two road games it opted out of. Is that an organization you want to oversee recruiting? I shudder at the thought.

I too oppose commitment letters. However, I don't see how the CIS can be attacked over Ryerson's actions.
 

MiamiHockey

Registered User
Sep 12, 2012
2,087
187
I too oppose commitment letters. However, I don't see how the CIS can be attacked over Ryerson's actions.

Knowing that this is not the forum for this discussion, I'll be brief.

Ryerson unilaterally self-imposed a team suspension that benefitted them the most possible:
- Away games (saving travel dollars while keeping Ryerson's ticket revenues intact)
- Non-Conference opponents (Queen's / UOIT) - no impact on teams they are competing with for playoff spot

This had a financial impact on UOIT and Queen's as well (lost revenue for tickets while still having cost of facility rental), although that's pretty minimal.

The team was suspended for actions 18-19 Oct, yet conveniently Ryerson waited until four within-conference games had passed before suspending the team.

My point is that a strong organization would not allow it's members to conduct their business in that way, and would maximize the punishment imposed on Ryerson (i.e., "You want to suspend your team for a week ... you do it on the CIS's terms, not your own). But the CIS is not a strong organization, so instead Ryerson is permitted to do as it pleases without further consequence.
 

Hollywood3

Bison/Jet/Moose Fan
May 12, 2007
6,441
941
Knowing that this is not the forum for this discussion, I'll be brief.

Ryerson unilaterally self-imposed a team suspension that benefitted them the most possible:
- Away games (saving travel dollars while keeping Ryerson's ticket revenues intact)
- Non-Conference opponents (Queen's / UOIT) - no impact on teams they are competing with for playoff spot

This had a financial impact on UOIT and Queen's as well (lost revenue for tickets while still having cost of facility rental), although that's pretty minimal.

The team was suspended for actions 18-19 Oct, yet conveniently Ryerson waited until four within-conference games had passed before suspending the team.

My point is that a strong organization would not allow it's members to conduct their business in that way, and would maximize the punishment imposed on Ryerson (i.e., "You want to suspend your team for a week ... you do it on the CIS's terms, not your own). But the CIS is not a strong organization, so instead Ryerson is permitted to do as it pleases without further consequence.

All you can do is apply rules in effect at the time. The OUA, not the CIS, would likely be the source of such rules. It would not surprise me that Ryerson had a financial penalty under OUA by-laws, but I cannot be sure.
 

Prov1X

Registered User
Feb 26, 2012
804
55
Fredericton NB
"Other coaches "lose" recruits to other coaches as well. " That statement is true. But, the other coaches don't 'hate' each other the way they 'hate' Gardiner. Why is that? Because UNB wins more games than they do? Sure, why not.

It's no secret that there is a definite hatred towards Gardiner and Todd, and I am sure that there are a few that don't hold Peddle in high regard either, but all said and done, it still remains fact that the rule was brought in because UNB had 40 goal scorers from the CHL sitting in the stands waiting for their turn to play. And like I have said, I would be fine with a roster cap IF it was applied to ALL teams that compete for the University Cup.

Two things, I wonder how long it lasts say if Acadia or STFX has injury problems in the playoffs and makes it to the University Cup, they will be the first to complain and then blame UNB for the rule, and second, the desired result has not happened from bringing in this rule. UNB still has quality first liners sitting in the stands and just waiting for their turn.
 

WilcoxHound

Registered User
Aug 26, 2011
252
0
Trying to get a truthful answer about which schools are paying which players and how much will be more difficult than getting an honest answer from the PMO. We all know that it happens but until someone rats on the mob bosses we won't know to what extent it penetrates CIS sports. I've talked with parents of players in the AUS who happily talk about the "free rides" and extras that their sons are getting. A pocket full of payola seems like a decent enough reason for a former 40 goal scorer to sit in the stands.:shakehead
 

RED ARMY EAST

Registered User
Feb 14, 2010
1,929
286
Freddy Beach,N.B.Canada
40 goal that sat in the stands

Yes, Wudrick was a former 40 plus goal scorer in the CHL, that was recruited by a very good UNB team that same year. The same team that would go on to be National Champions in 2013.
The bottom line was that he wasn't able to adjust to the role that he was was given and ended up sitting in the stands more often than not, unlike others who had less impressive junior stats, like Houde Caron, but offered much more heart and soul! We see many former CHL snipers that come to a high calibre league, such as the AUS or semi-pro and struggle, as he did in Freddy. I can't think of any others with that good of CHL stats that wasn't a regular in the V-Red lineup.
Some,5'th year transfers such as Brad Pierce (Dal), Swan (X), Pridham (SMU) all came to UNB and won a National title. Did this upset(mod edit)Peddle, Steinburg?? You bet, can you blame them, but the players chose to come on their own, right??
Kyle Ross transferred from Regina to the U of S, Kenton Dulle from STU to his home town Huskies, because they were hosting Nationals?? Luke Lynes from UNB to Waterloo. It happens
Did you people ever think that some recruits like to play in front of fans and not in an empty shack and I have been told from a former assistant coach that STU lost recruits after they have had their walk through the old beaver brook rink.
UNB and Acadia have great fan support and good facilities, which also helps in recruiting top talent. It helps.
In conclusion, that player didn't fit on that team from a performance issue, and chose to walk,bottom line!
Now, since SMU and X are hosting Nationals, they will land some elite recruits, that may have been leaning towards going to a UNB or Acadia, right??
 
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